4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yet, the Defense is going after something similar. I've read a lot for and against touch DNA.

Just to play devil's advocate (because I do think BK is the killer), what would happen if BK looked at the knife in a store and opened the sheath (leaving touch DNA on the snap) and then put it back; then someone else comes along, buys the knife but doesn't open it until he has gloves on and --just to be safe -- wipes down the entire sheath to remove any errant DNA?

That's the sort of scenario I think we'll see the Defense argue.

Keep in mind that convictions based on touch DNA, such as the Amanda Knox case, have been overturned later.

My only comment is that to establish such a train of facts, BK would need to testify. Only he could know that this is the "real explanation" for his DNA being on a KaBar knife. If he doesn't remember going to a store and touching a sheath, taking a knife out of its original packaging, etc, then it will be very hard to establish.

Personally, I think the amazon subpoenas have come back with some evidence.

No regular knife buyer would have known that BK was living near the murder, and was really taking chances (of course).

If the Defense can produce someone who says they went to a store that sells KaBar knives and then somehow lost track of where the knife was (and sterilized it before the loss?) then that person is a key witness. That person's testimony has to be provided in discovery, as well. This person needs to say that they bought the knife and then, for some reason, wore gloves every time they used it (and it had no store employee DNA on it - just hapless BK's, who only went in to look at knives). I don't think this is what happened and I think there will be evidence at trial showing that BK looked at knives online. Sure, he could also have touched one - but the chances of a random person then buying the knife (they couldn't know who touched it prior?) and then murdering 4 people in Idaho need to be PROVED. Someone has to provide evidence of such a transaction. A shop keeper. Someone.

The Amanda Knox case was not overturned merely due to "touch" DNA - the issues are much more complex than that. That was a case of multiple mixed samples - not the case here.

IMO.
 
Has the question been answered, I would envision by BK’s attorney - if there is supposed evidence that the defense team and her client have not seen or been provided - exactly how does the attorney / her client know that it is ‘exculpatory’? MOO
RBBM above. Imo his attorneys don't know. It's called/is on a par with concept of plausible deniabilty. Moo

Not on top of what was said or asserted exactly at the latest hearing, but in prior Motions to Compel and I believe in one or both of Defense's Motions to Dismiss (perhaps from memory numbers 1,2, or three of MsTC ; for source scroll down at link to find between about March and June 2023; second MOT is dated Aug 23rd 2023, the first one prior to that sometime) exculpatory evidence was asserted on the basis of 'information and belief'. This is the way the whole question has often been handled by defense in written form imo. AFAIK (Court found no case for dismissal for eg) no exculpatory evidence was discovered on the prior occasions mentioned above. Moo


INAL but clearly imo there is specific legalistic phrasing and careful use of language that is employed in court. D could, if pressed, point out that they are only expressing a belief not absolute knowledge. AT knows all the ways to phrase this stuff so as not be accused of baseless speculation (or lying) when exculpatory and/or exonerating evidence fails to materialise. jmo
 
Has the question been answered, I would envision by BK’s attorney - if there is supposed evidence that the defense team and her client have not seen or been provided - exactly how does the attorney / her client know that it is ‘exculpatory’? MOO
If I'm right, and I very well could be wrong, I think the term "exculpatory" came from Sy Ray. At least originally. He was the one who said some of the data was missing, but what he had right now was exculpatory. He didn't elaborate.
 
My only comment is that to establish such a train of facts, BK would need to testify. Only he could know that this is the "real explanation" for his DNA being on a KaBar knife. If he doesn't remember going to a store and touching a sheath, taking a knife out of its original packaging, etc, then it will be very hard to establish.

Personally, I think the amazon subpoenas have come back with some evidence.

No regular knife buyer would have known that BK was living near the murder, and was really taking chances (of course).

If the Defense can produce someone who says they went to a store that sells KaBar knives and then somehow lost track of where the knife was (and sterilized it before the loss?) then that person is a key witness. That person's testimony has to be provided in discovery, as well. This person needs to say that they bought the knife and then, for some reason, wore gloves every time they used it (and it had no store employee DNA on it - just hapless BK's, who only went in to look at knives). I don't think this is what happened and I think there will be evidence at trial showing that BK looked at knives online. Sure, he could also have touched one - but the chances of a random person then buying the knife (they couldn't know who touched it prior?) and then murdering 4 people in Idaho need to be PROVED. Someone has to provide evidence of such a transaction. A shop keeper. Someone.

The Amanda Knox case was not overturned merely due to "touch" DNA - the issues are much more complex than that. That was a case of multiple mixed samples - not the case here.

IMO.
That sounds feasible. My follow-up question is whether you think BK will take the stand. I think he won't, but this is an odd case.

And that hypothetical scenario was just one I dreamed up as an example of how touch DNA moves. Maybe the Defense would suggest (via DNA experts) something more like a possibility the killer was wearing gloves when he shook BK's hand (it was winter), transferred the touch DNA to the sheath, but then missed that tiny bit when wiping the sheath. All MOO

My thoughts are that Sy Ray's testimony the cellphone data is exculpatory (if that's what he testifies to), combined with transfer DNA, may be enough to put a single juror in doubt.

I certainly don't know, but given what I've been reading, that seems to be where they're heading. Maybe it will come down to just how good the state is. AT is good.
 
I agree with all you've said here. It's just that Sy Ray claims he can show that BK was nowhere near when the murders occurred due to his phone location data.

That's why some here feel as though BK might have left his phone somewhere--to later provide an alibi for himself.
possibly he left it outside somewhere- unlikely for anyone to find. Say in a hole in the dirt...and later picked it up. Other possibility is the tracking is bad because of the limited # of towers- he could have known there was a place he dropped calls and left it near there- IMO.
 
Has the question been answered, I would envision by BK’s attorney - if there is supposed evidence that the defense team and her client have not seen or been provided - exactly how does the attorney / her client know that it is ‘exculpatory’? MOO

If I'm right, and I very well could be wrong, I think the term "exculpatory" came from Sy Ray. At least originally. He was the one who said some of the data was missing, but what he had right now was exculpatory. He didn't elaborate.
Sy is claiming that the missing data is exculpatory. (Has the potential to be exculpatory.)

But AT hadn't even been able to show there IS missing data.

She has bandied about "CAST reports" plural but there is only one. There is a draft and a report. And because of her whole deal about windy.com, an investigator went back into reports and pulled out some information and provided it. It was irrelevant and nonevidentiary both.

I find it really important to remember that this isn't at trial. AT has to convince the judge for a jury to ever hear it. She has yet to produce an alibi defense that meets the threshold.

Long road to go.

JMO
 
Sy is claiming that the missing data is exculpatory. (Has the potential to be exculpatory.)

But AT hadn't even been able to show there IS missing data.

She has bandied about "CAST reports" plural but there is only one. There is a draft and a report. And because of her whole deal about windy.com, an investigator went back into reports and pulled out some information and provided it. It was irrelevant and nonevidentiary both.

I find it really important to remember that this isn't at trial. AT has to convince the judge for a jury to ever hear it. She has yet to produce an alibi defense that meets the threshold.

Long road to go.

JMO
Just one note -- Ray said, if the reports are true -- that what he's seen so far is exculpatory, not what's missing.

"What he has seen so far, he said, appears to be "exculpatory" to Kohberger."

I agree it's still a long road...
 
possibly he left it outside somewhere- unlikely for anyone to find. Say in a hole in the dirt...and later picked it up. Other possibility is the tracking is bad because of the limited # of towers- he could have known there was a place he dropped calls and left it near there- IMO.

I've heard this theory, and it's a decent one. I mean, if he was planning on killing and he didn't want his phone tracked to the murder house, he could have done this.

The dropped tracking is also a possibility in MOO.
 
... exactly how does the attorney / her client know that it is ‘exculpatory’?
RSBM.

"Bryan Kohberger's defense team has secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question"

Bryan Kohberger's Defense Receives Huge Boost
Ray will testify that "Bryan Kohberger's mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho on November 13, 2022; that Bryan Kohberger's mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow-Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th, and thus could not be the vehicle captured on video along the Moscow-Pullman highway near Floyd's Cannabis shop."

Police obtained footage of a white Hyundai car, similar to Kohberger's, traveling on the Moscow-Pullman road after the killings.

But. Mobile data from towers and GPS data from one's phone can tell different stories about one's location. Mobile tower data rely on towers nearby whereas GPS data come from satellites. GPS data is far more accurate. But GPS signal can struggle indoors, in dense urban areas with tall buildings, or under heavy tree cover where the satellite signals can be blocked or reflected. In terms of real-time updates, GPS is generally quicker and more precise. It's like having a live feed of your location, which is why it’s so good for navigation apps and activities that need constant location updates. Mobile tower data, meanwhile, can lag behind a bit, as it only updates your location when your phone connects to different towers. When it comes to privacy, both methods have their nuances. Mobile tower data is constantly being used by your phone, even when you’re not actively trying to figure out your location. This is handy for things like emergency calls or apps that provide location-based services. GPS, however, is something you usually control and turn on for specific apps that need precise location data, like maps or fitness trackers. In suburban area, mobile tower data is less accurate. If BK's phone had GPS turned off and the mobile coverage in the area was poor, accurately pinpointing his exact location would be challenging.
 
That sounds feasible. My follow-up question is whether you think BK will take the stand. I think he won't, but this is an odd case.

And that hypothetical scenario was just one I dreamed up as an example of how touch DNA moves. Maybe the Defense would suggest (via DNA experts) something more like a possibility the killer was wearing gloves when he shook BK's hand (it was winter), transferred the touch DNA to the sheath, but then missed that tiny bit when wiping the sheath. All MOO

My thoughts are that Sy Ray's testimony the cellphone data is exculpatory (if that's what he testifies to), combined with transfer DNA, may be enough to put a single juror in doubt.

I certainly don't know, but given what I've been reading, that seems to be where they're heading. Maybe it will come down to just how good the state is. AT is good.

I think he is one of the least likely defendants to actually take the stand. We know he has a tendency to run on (per his interaction with the LEO in Pullman; per his fellow students). I think it would be a complete disaster to put him on the stand and that he would likely have to take the 5th over and over. Not a good look from an accused murderer.

DNA experts testify as to the DNA that exists, not on hypothetical scenarios. At least, I've never seen it. Defense can suggest whatever it wants in opening and closing, but the Judge will instruct the jury on what to consider evidence - and opening/closing arguments are just that (arguments, not evidence).

They would still need some sort of witness to this bizarre chain of transactions involving the sheath, IMO. RIght now, there's just one person's DNA on the sheath and the Defense has not asked for more (consumptive) testing. There's a reason for that.

There are many, many things that could put a juror in doubt. However, more interesting to me is that this is a Death Penalty case, so the jury has to be Death Penalty qualified per Idaho rules. That means that the jury will likely have to decide both guilt vs. non-guilt - but also between DP and LWP. One lone hold out is unusual in such a situation - but yes, it could happen. I believe that the evidence against Kohberger will be so overwhelming that this isn't going to happen - but if it does, I think Idaho will retry him.

And next time, ALL the evidence in the first trial will be "out there" and the public will have consumed it. That presents new challenges for his defense team, for sure.

The problem is that juries typically look for the hard evidence and are much less inclined to view defense experts as valuable. LEO's are regarded as reliable by most jurors, as compared to lawyers themselves. It's interesting, for sure.

I don't think Sy will be testifying at this trial, frankly. The entire debate about who is an expert and who the Judge will allow on the expert witness list at trial has not yet taken place - we have a looong way to go with this case, before trial even starts. Sy is an entrepreneur and has few of the qualifications usually expected of a digial forensics expert. His role right now is merely to establish some small grounds for reasonable doubt.

We'll have to wait and see how that works out for Kohberger.

IMO.
 
RSBM.

"Bryan Kohberger's defense team has secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question"

Bryan Kohberger's Defense Receives Huge Boost


But. Mobile data from towers and GPS data from one's phone can tell different stories about one's location. Mobile tower data rely on towers nearby whereas GPS data come from satellites. GPS data is far more accurate. But GPS signal can struggle indoors, in dense urban areas with tall buildings, or under heavy tree cover where the satellite signals can be blocked or reflected. In terms of real-time updates, GPS is generally quicker and more precise. It's like having a live feed of your location, which is why it’s so good for navigation apps and activities that need constant location updates. Mobile tower data, meanwhile, can lag behind a bit, as it only updates your location when your phone connects to different towers. When it comes to privacy, both methods have their nuances. Mobile tower data is constantly being used by your phone, even when you’re not actively trying to figure out your location. This is handy for things like emergency calls or apps that provide location-based services. GPS, however, is something you usually control and turn on for specific apps that need precise location data, like maps or fitness trackers. In suburban area, mobile tower data is less accurate. If BK's phone had GPS turned off and the mobile coverage in the area was poor, accurately pinpointing his exact location would be challenging.
Thank you (and also many others) for the response and input! Very helpful and a lot to digest and understand for sure.

And paraphrasing from above…… maybe what the data demonstrates is that:

….. “secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger’s phone was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question”

Emphasis / bold insertions & modifications added by me. MOO
 
Thank you (and also many others) for the response and input! Very helpful and a lot to digest and understand for sure.

And paraphrasing from above…… maybe what the data demonstrates is that:

….. “secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger’s phone was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question”

Emphasis / bold insertions & modifications added by me. MOO
And from there, what next for AT?

Because I'll entertain her assertion -- BK's phone was nowhere near Moscow.

If she'll entertain mine -- that BK was nowhere near his phone.

JMO.
 
RSBM.

"Bryan Kohberger's defense team has secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question"

Bryan Kohberger's Defense Receives Huge Boost


But. Mobile data from towers and GPS data from one's phone can tell different stories about one's location. Mobile tower data rely on towers nearby whereas GPS data come from satellites. GPS data is far more accurate. But GPS signal can struggle indoors, in dense urban areas with tall buildings, or under heavy tree cover where the satellite signals can be blocked or reflected. In terms of real-time updates, GPS is generally quicker and more precise. It's like having a live feed of your location, which is why it’s so good for navigation apps and activities that need constant location updates. Mobile tower data, meanwhile, can lag behind a bit, as it only updates your location when your phone connects to different towers. When it comes to privacy, both methods have their nuances. Mobile tower data is constantly being used by your phone, even when you’re not actively trying to figure out your location. This is handy for things like emergency calls or apps that provide location-based services. GPS, however, is something you usually control and turn on for specific apps that need precise location data, like maps or fitness trackers. In suburban area, mobile tower data is less accurate. If BK's phone had GPS turned off and the mobile coverage in the area was poor, accurately pinpointing his exact location would be challenging.
RBBM

I think that's a good explanation.

Of course, if the cell phone was turned off, which is what I personally suspect, it's just more fishing &/or spaghetti throwing by the defense, MOO.

I do puzzle over why he had his phone with him that night if the attack was planned. Personally, I keep going back to the heavy police presence near his apartment complex in the earlier hours & wonder if that unsettled him so he just forgot to leave his cell phone at home? He then realized his mistake at some point & just simply shut it off, MOO.

Seems possible to me, but that's just my sheer speculation.
 
RBBM

I think that's a good explanation.

Of course, if the cell phone was turned off, which is what I personally suspect, it's just more fishing &/or spaghetti throwing by the defense, MOO.

I do puzzle over why he had his phone with him that night if the attack was planned. Personally, I keep going back to the heavy police presence near his apartment complex in the earlier hours & wonder if that unsettled him so he just forgot to leave his cell phone at home? He then realized his mistake at some point & just simply shut it off, MOO.

Seems possible to me, but that's just my sheer speculation.

My own pet theory is that he needed the phone for directions. He needed a place to go dump the stuff he'd just used at 1122 King. He thought it would be possible to find a spot away from people's houses, etc (but he knew he had a tendency to get lost; he tailgates because that's a strategy for him, IMO).

So he figured he'd turn it off during the actual murders. He's not as smart as he thinks he is. He knew how to get from Pullman to Moscow, so he ought to have turned it off sooner. But I think he was still in between a "practice run" and an actual murder. He was planning at least one murder - but possibly not that night. He may have been in the house at night before, getting mentally ready.

I think he's the type who exposed himself to various stimulation, hoping to get a feeling of "reality" that he lacked in his own life - and he was waiting for a certain emotional state to push him over the edge into the actual deed (which he likely fantasized about - perhaps for years, perhaps in various different scenarios even before arriving in Pullman). By moving out of PA, he removed a series of obstacles (he was known there, he felt watched by his parents, etc).

He keeps his phone with him throughout that day, allowing LE to track him to the Albertson's parking lot, where they can show that both he and his phone were together, with his Elantra, and that there was no one else with him at that time.

It is possible he was unsettled by several things, although to me he seems like a person who thinks of himself as hyper-focused at all times (meaning, he might not even know he'd become unfocused - he seems focused to himself, all the time).

IMO
 
Thank you (and also many others) for the response and input! Very helpful and a lot to digest and understand for sure.

And paraphrasing from above…… maybe what the data demonstrates is that:

….. “secured a cell phone data expert who will allegedly show that Kohberger’s phone was nowhere near the house in Moscow, Idaho where four college students were killed on the night in question”

Emphasis / bold insertions & modifications added by me. MOO

I didn't know a phone could be arrested for murder. So I can commit murder so long as my phone is some place else because that means I'm innocent. Better open up the jails and let the bad guys go.
 
An Opening in Pullman PD.
IIRC, in summer 2023 BK provided CV & info/proposal to Pullman PD indicating interest in employment/internship there. [Deleted a phrase. Thx for clarification, @Cool Cats]

Anyway, see PPD facebook May 31 entry.*
Could this be BK's chance??? ;) jk
Maybe not his dream job there, but a start?
Maybe he could work remotely??? ;) jk

___________________________
* "City of Pullman Police Department"
"Looking for an exciting career opportunity, a chance to make a positive difference in our local community, and a great team? Pullman PD is hiring a Code Enforcement Officer!
"Learn more and apply today: pullman-wa.gov/jobs."
 
Last edited:
An Opening in Pullman PD.
IIRC, in summer 2023 BK provided CV & info/proposal to Pullman PD indicating interest in employment/project there. Or was it Moscow? Sorry, I've forgotten.

Anyway, see PPD facebook May 31 entry*
Could this be BK's chance??? ;) jk
Maybe not his dream job there, but a start?
Maybe BK could work remotely??? ;) jk

___________________________
* "City of Pullman Police Department
"Looking for an exciting career opportunity, a chance to make a positive difference in our local community, and a great team? Pullman PD is hiring a Code Enforcement Officer!
Learn more and apply today: pullman-wa.gov/jobs.



Kohberger, a PhD student in criminology at Washington State University, wanted to intern with the Pullman Police Department in the Fall 2022 semester, according to the affidavit made public Thursday.

In an essay he submitted with his application, the alleged killer wrote that he wanted to assist “rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological
data in public safety operations,” the affidavit says.

Kohberger didn’t seem to get the job. One of the officers who interviewed him handed his application records over to Moscow cops investigating the Nov. 13 murders of four college students at their off-campus home.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
132
Guests online
2,514
Total visitors
2,646

Forum statistics

Threads
600,480
Messages
18,109,243
Members
230,991
Latest member
Clue Keeper
Back
Top