4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #97

[Justice101]

What exactly is the lie?

That the expert determined the vehicle seen in cctv to be consistent with a 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra, later expanded to include 2015 (new range 2011-2013)?

If anyone could point me to where this expert or any other said it was absolutely a 2011-2013 and could NOT be any other year....

I believe AT's fancy footwork is this: maybe nowhere in the vast email collection is there an email between BP and the expert expanding the years outside 2011-2013. Doh. Email isn't the only form of communication in the world. It could well be documented elsewhere as about a thirty second phone call. As likely it was an informal conversation between the expert and BP or any other detective working the case.

BK is not going to walk free because an expert's preliminary vehicle analysis was off by two years. Nor is there any real evidence that BP misrepresented anything about the vehicle or the FBI description of it.

IMO if AT had a legitimate point, she'd make it directly, in one clear page.

She's wasting trees.

JMO

She does not have much to defend him with.

She will have to resort to trying to throw out police evidence. She will also resort to micro-examining how the police did their work and how they settled on BK.

She has a huge uphill battle. I believe in the end, the DNA and car/phone evidence will be plenty for the jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Juries are generally down to earth and don't get hung up on the knit-picky stuff you and I worry about.

 

[Justice101]

You're not allowed to revisit any piece of evidence or ask someone to confirm? How about when you find additional evidence that might give them context? Like a higher resolution shot of the car?

Car identification is not binary. It's not even a 5 quadrillion to 1 DNA score. It's subjective. JMO

We wouldn't solve a single cold case and would probably have to stop investigations right after the first suspect was dismissed, if taking a second look at a piece of evidence was considered nefarious.

Also, I've yet to see a piece of evidence that says prosecutors knew Kohlberger's name before the misidentification was corrected. It's been all internet speculation and defense attorney conjecture.

Agree.

Imagine a case where the car "seen" by a witness was described as a Toyota Camry but in reality it Toyota Corolla.

Does the case get tossed because someone was wrong?

The case involved the totality of the evidence, strong and weak.

IMO, the hard DNA evidence, eyewitness description of his body and bushy eyebrow, circumstantial evidence in regard to his phone and car data, circumstantial evidence they may have that he bought a hunting knife that had that same style sheath, etc. will be more than enough.

IMO, the Defense's challenge to throw out evidence is their only hope.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This BOLO was for any white elantra. Not a 2013.

PCA
On November 25, 2022 MPD asked area law enforcement agencies to be on the lookout for white Hyundai Elantras in the area

JMO

I think it is possible that LE intentionally generalized the year of the Elantra after the first 2011 - 2013 statement that they wanted to speak to the driver, not naming them a suspect in order not to scare the driver into fleeing the area or knowing for sure that they were zeroing in on them (BK).

It was a brutal unsolved quadruple murder. LE would have been very cautious and apprehensive about what information they released to the public, and they are allowed to present generalized or even leak false updates to the public to protect the case.

LE could have been worried about what the killer might do if he felt trapped. Mass shooting? Another mass homicide? Anything was possible at that time.

JMO

 

[SortaSleuthy]

So you think he'll take the stand?

Or that he has receipts? What will be the basis of this coming into evidence?

He will need to say where he bought it. And describe why he left it in a drawer in an office he did not use much andhat' which contained almost no personal items.

It's not "simple."

Of course, the DNA evidence is the most damning. And it's really strange that the thief left no dna, isn't it? I mean, DNA is microscopic and hard to remove. The rest of the knife was (apparently) clean. It was single source DNA. So the thief never used the snap, the one part that is hard to clean of microscopic evidence.

Why did he not report it the "next day"?

If it's only one juror and it's a hung jury, then the families wait for justice even longer. That does seem possible in American jurisprudence. But BK will be behind bars while all this happens.

Also,
The DNA is not on the bottom of the knife sheath.

It's was inside the tiny metallic groove of the snap (which is not on the bottom of the sheath).

IMO.

I said button, not bottom.

 

[10ofRods]

I said button, not bottom.

Pardon me. Too late to edit. But the question still stands about whether his story about a sheath being stolen from him (or any variant) can get into testimony.

I can't think of any other way for that type of alibi (which so far has not been filed with the State of Idaho - which is required in Idaho) could get into evidence.

I do believe that if Kohberger had filed a police report in WA regarding a sheath theft, he wouldn't be where he is right now and we would know about it.

But that's JMO.

 

[CKS]

I think it is possible that LE intentionally generalized the year of the Elantra after the first 2011 - 2013 statement that they wanted to speak to the driver, not naming them a suspect in order not to scare the driver into fleeing the area or knowing for sure that they were zeroing in on them (BK).

It was a brutal unsolved quadruple murder. LE would have been very cautious and apprehensive about what information they released to the public, and they are allowed to present generalized or even leak false updates to the public to protect the case.

LE could have been worried about what the killer might do if he felt trapped. Mass shooting? Another mass homicide? Anything was possible at that time.

JMO

First if LE was so worried about what the killer might do and they thought it was BK why would they let him leave the state and travel across the country? That doesn't make any sense imo.

I’ve read the documents, and I’m wondering if I understood correctly that Bryan was arrested because of his gender, height, eyebrows, place of living, and ownership of a mass-produced car. According to Thompson, the DNA results were not used to obtain anything.

The DNA is the only strong evidence the prosecution has. In fact it is the ONLY decent evidence against BK that there is. The DNA evidence is the beginning and the end of the prosecution case. All the other evidence was reverse engineered after they got the IGG identification. Destroy the DNA evidence and the prosecution case falls apart imo.


All moo

 

[Boxer]

I think it is possible that LE intentionally generalized the year of the Elantra after the first 2011 - 2013 statement that they wanted to speak to the driver, not naming them a suspect in order not to scare the driver into fleeing the area or knowing for sure that they were zeroing in on them (BK).

It was a brutal unsolved quadruple murder. LE would have been very cautious and apprehensive about what information they released to the public, and they are allowed to present generalized or even leak false updates to the public to protect the case.

LE could have been worried about what the killer might do if he felt trapped. Mass shooting? Another mass homicide? Anything was possible at that time.

JMO

Agree, and this kind of thing is a protected investigated technique. Asking Bridge Guy to come forward as a witness from the they had not yet spoken to - saying ghe photo was from a trail cam seems similar.

I scoured Google Maps at the time ithe info was released for random Elantas in the Moscow area, and i saw there was basically no difference the model years, just different wheel covers/rims.

 

[Boxer]

First if LE was so worried about what the killer might do and they thought it was BK why would they let him leave the state and travel across the country? That doesn't make any sense imo.

I’ve read the documents, and I’m wondering if I understood correctly that Bryan was arrested because of his gender, height, eyebrows, place of living, and ownership of a mass-produced car. According to Thompson, the DNA results were not used to obtain anything.

The DNA is the only strong evidence the prosecution has. In fact it is the ONLY decent evidence against BK that there is. The DNA evidence is the beginning and the end of the prosecution case. All the other evidence was reverse engineered after they got the IGG identification. Destroy the DNA evidence and the prosecution case falls apart imo.


All moo

Agree. Suppressing evidence is his only defense because he is guilty.

 

[wendy44]

Not seeing how defense will be able to prove that LE would not have run BK's plates if not for the IGG. I'm sure LE ran plenty of Elantra plates as part of their investigation. This was four stranger murders and I think LE would have been allowed to run Elantra plates, especially BK's 2015 plates given the footage supplied to them by WSU and possible traffic cams in Pullman at extremely suspect early morning hours on 13th November. Plus the one licence plate SV1 Elantra captured at around 3.26am on Indian Hills Drive. I can't see AT getting anywhere with this. LE is allowed to be flexible in their investigating as more evidence comes to light. FBI is also permitted to reassess earlier findings. Jmo.

IF Howard Blum is correct in his book, the State should be able to show they were on to BK before the FBI revealed the name that the IGG led to. On pages 144-145 he writes:

"For not only were the agents determined to keep their activity secret from the chief suspect in a quadruple homicide, but, for reasons shaped by a private logic, they were also set on making sure the Moscow taskforce had no inkling either."

"The local team never knew their federal partners in the case had a match on the knife sheath DNA. Or that the bureau was now intent on tracking the suspect's every move."

This was as BK and his father were leaving Pullman in December for the cross country trip back to Pennsylvania. He writes that the FBI team was concerned those traffic stops were due to Indiana law enforcement connecting the Elantra to the BOLO issued by Moscow PD. So--if this is correct, it's going to be difficult for the defense to say that MPD would not have tracked him down without the IGG because by December they already had and allegedly had no knowledge of the IGG results. That the defense was trying to head off that argument shows it's likely to be a crucial element in getting the IGG and thus the warrants thrown out.

 

[wendy44]

Lying about who expanded the car years to search for is only a small part of the Frank's Hearing, IMO. 2,000 pages indicates a lot of other issues, although lying to get a warrant is incredibly serious, illegal and corrupt

JMO

But the judge said this about the 2000 pages:

"Unfortunately, Defendant's memorandum largely fails to identify with particularity the relevant portions of the exhibits, instead referring simply to the exhibit number without identifying the precise pages at issue. Thus, the Court is left with the unenviable task of sifting through pages and pages of largely irrelevant documents to ascertain what portion Defendant may be referring to."

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/112224-Order-Re-Franks-Motion.pdf

Largely irrelevant

 

[wendy44]

It's not about a careless mistake, it's about LE lying to get a warrant, when they would not have gotten the warrant without the lie. AT identified the lie last May during BP's testimony - perhaps you missed that hearing? This situation didn't just suddenly come up nor is it a surprise.

I did miss it--do you have a quote or a time stamp?

 

[mrjitty]

Agree. Suppressing evidence is his only defense because he is guilty.

Right - this seems non-controversial to me, and it a typical defence strategy.

 

[SortaSleuthy]

I firmly believe that BK is guilty. However, by playing devils advocate, we might anticipate a future move by the D.
We have one smoking gun - his DNA on the sheath button.
We have several pieces of circumstantial evidence, one being that his car matches a car driven in the area of the murders in the color, make, model and year range.
(BK wasn’t the only person with a car like that.) Also, he has bushy eyebrows (I have bushy eyebrows) and he tossed his trash into a neighbors can in Penn. (Suspicious, but not proof of guilt of 4 murders.)

In order to counter the DNA, the Defense MUST introduce some doubt in the mind of one juror. I posted a possible attack on the DNA earlier this week:

“BK simply says … “I bought a knife with a sheath like that. Last time I saw it was when I put it in my desk drawer at the college. The next day it was gone. Instead of accusing me, why aren’t the police talking to the students and janitorial staff?
“Remember, it only takes one juror to create a hung jury!”

How else might the Defense say to introduce “DNA doubt”?

 

[al66pine]

Altering Analysis of Evidence.

No one altered any evidence though.
What was altered was the analysis of the evidence.

You don't alter analysis of the evidence to match a suspect. That's blatant misconduct, IMO.

@BeginnerSleuther
Agreeing that IF someone w LE agency altered analysis of evidence to match a suspect, that is misconduct. Doubtful imo that we (gen. public) knows that to be a fact here re the model years of perp's vehicle.
AFAIK, we do not have access to the ct. filings which may reveal new info.

Looking forward to learning Judge H's ruling.

 

[Boxer]

I firmly believe that BK is guilty. However, by playing devils advocate, we might anticipate a future move by the D.
We have one smoking gun - his DNA on the sheath button.
We have several pieces of circumstantial evidence, one being that his car matches a car driven in the area of the murders in the color, make, model and year range.
(BK wasn’t the only person with a car like that.) Also, he has bushy eyebrows (I have bushy eyebrows) and he tossed his trash into a neighbors can in Penn. (Suspicious, but not proof of guilt of 4 murders.)

In order to counter the DNA, the Defense MUST introduce some doubt in the mind of one juror. I posted a possible attack on the DNA earlier this week:

“BK simply says … “I bought a knife with a sheath like that. Last time I saw it was when I put it in my desk drawer at the college. The next day it was gone. Instead of accusing me, why aren’t the police talking to the students and janitorial staff?
“Remember, it only takes one juror to create a hung jury!”

How else might the Defense say to introduce “DNA doubt”?

Stolen from his apartment? I hope no one so gullible is chosen for the jury.

 

[Swansee]

How else might the Defense say to introduce “DNA doubt”?

There are several scenarios the Defense could come up with, and the one you mentioned, or similar story, is one of them.
Hypothetically, the Defense could even question whether the victims' wounds were really inflicted with a K-bar, or with some other type of knife. It will be up to the Prosecution to show that the wounds are consistent with the blade of a K-bar. @10ofRods explained several threads ago how specific analyses of the wounds can reveal not just the size of the blade, but also sometimes it's specific metallic composition.
There are also other scenarios by which either the Defense can try to show that BK's DNA could have transferred onto the sheath prior to that night, or by which the evidence could have become contaminated after collection.
I am not arguing that any of these scenarios in particular is valid, but since you asked, those are options of what IMO might be raised by the Defense to introduce DNA doubt.
They will not deny that the IGG work is correctly done, since the cheek swab confirmed the match. Instead they will either look for alternative scenarios for the DNA ending up there.
All JMO!

 

[10ofRods]

In addition to the DNA, there are also phone records, wherein he and his phone are driving to Moscow, ID at around the time of the murders, and then, he leaves town and turns his phone back on, just after the murders are thought to be occurred.

He goes through a circuitous route back to his student apartment, then his phone and the car are in motion toward King Road at around 9 am later that morning.

I suspect there is also camera footage here and there, that we don't know about.

There are quite a few strands of evidence that hint at motive/mental predisposition, as well.

Juries tend to be holistic.

IMO.

 

[al66pine]

The 11 is kinda chubby while the 15 is toned… at least that’s how I see it.

@Mr.Dandy
Thanks for your post distinguishing the "kinda chubby" 2011 from 2015 vehicle.

Does BK's 2015 Elantra look even more toned or fit? Maybe from all the night driving to star-gaze? Nah, j/k.

Even leisurely looking at large, full color, still pix taken in broad daylight, I'd be hard pressed to detect any significant differences btwn these two cars at link, let alone trying to accurately ID the possible years w only grainy night vids.

I've forgotten whether any posts here include vids which (may) show relevant footage. Anyone?

______________________________
2011 Elantra https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/screen-shot-2024-11-29-at-6-42-07-pm-png.548029/

2015 Elantra https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/screen-shot-2024-11-29-at-6-28-00-pm-png.548026/

 

[Kemug]

I think it is possible that LE intentionally generalized the year of the Elantra after the first 2011 - 2013 statement that they wanted to speak to the driver, not naming them a suspect in order not to scare the driver into fleeing the area or knowing for sure that they were zeroing in on them (BK).

It was a brutal unsolved quadruple murder. LE would have been very cautious and apprehensive about what information they released to the public, and they are allowed to present generalized or even leak false updates to the public to protect the case.

LE could have been worried about what the killer might do if he felt trapped. Mass shooting? Another mass homicide? Anything was possible at that time.

JMO

If BK's arrest at his family home had gone wrong, would he have been capable of killing them all, I wonder? Himself and his parents? (and his sisters? It is unclear to me if they were there at the time.)

 

[Mr.Dandy]

In addition to the DNA, there are also phone records, wherein he and his phone are driving to Moscow, ID at around the time of the murders, and then, he leaves town and turns his phone back on, just after the murders are thought to be occurred.

He goes through a circuitous route back to his student apartment, then his phone and the car are in motion toward King Road at around 9 am later that morning.

I suspect there is also camera footage here and there, that we don't know about.

There are quite a few strands of evidence that hint at motive/mental predisposition, as well.

Juries tend to be holistic.

IMO.

So I say Toned because on the 2015, the reflector or light on the back bumper and the longer fog light on the front. Plus the hood is a tad bit longer and there is a slight bump on the back bumper. The 2011 doesn’t have that, making it appear chubby. Is there only the one picture that’s been released of the car from the crime scene? Because to me, it looks more like the 2011.