4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

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That difference between you and your twin sister can be accounted for by nurture instead of nature. Both affect what happens to us. If you sister does not live with you and you two don't do everything together and eat the same foods and drink the same drinks, these differences in lifestyle can impact individuals and cause differences like cancer.
This is not unusual, parents are sometimes mis-attributed, even with sisters and brothers who are not identical twins in DNA testing.
Dopplegangers DO actually have extremely similar DNA. That's a scientific fact:




I have not seen any evidence of fingerprints in this particular case. Have you? If you have, can you provide a link? I would like to see the information.

SBM to answer your points.

Thank you, yes, I am HIGHLY aware of nurture/nature and the impact both have on health and other issues.

My sister and I have also been the subject of a clinical study here in NYC regarding identical twins when only one has had cancer.

I mentioned my twin and granddaughter not because it’s puzzling but the opposite..to affirm the accuracy and value of DNA matching.


My point as it relates to BK and the case is that IMO, looking for a doppelgänger to explain away BK misses the point. An unrelated doppelgänger may have, as you say, “extremely similar DNA,” but it will not be IDENTICAL. It will not MATCH.

From my perspective, looking for this “near miss” person is the desperate search for the unicorn to absolve BK.

And I believe the defense knows it, because why else would they want the DNA excluded from trial??? When obviously if the DNA did not match their client, he would’ve been exonerated long ago.

I agree that there’s been no evidence of fingerprints AFAIK. I threw that in because “singletons” generally believe identical twins have identical prints and therefore can literally get away with murder, and I didn’t want to see that falsehood suggested, as sometimes happens.

JMO and JME
 
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No, it is not irrelevant. In this case we have what appears to be a miniscule sample of touch DNA. If it was on the snap, it is likely degraded because a brass snap contains copper which degrades DNA and the DNA sat on the snap at minimum 4 days until it was tested - and there is no way to know how long BEFORE the murders that the DNA was deposited. Unfortunately DNA testing cannot tell us that. If the DNA is degraded or very degraded it is not a complete profile and could easily indicate another suspect - someone who may be distantly related to BK that BK doesn't even know.

Further, if I see this report and it shows that the only part of the sheath that was tested for DNA is the female part of the snap or only the snap, I'm going to have a lot of questions about why that was. So I am looking for a report that shows that the leather of the sheath, the pocket of the sheath, the snap of the sheath were all tested at minimum. It is important to know if objects are tested correctly and at the right level of detail before deciding if they are valid evidence.

Of course we don't have any of this information yet, so there is no way to judge the evidence at this point.
You still failed to prove how it's relevant to Bovine DNA in manufacturing.
 
I’m an identical twin. We don’t have the same medical conditions at all. She’s had cancer and I haven’t, for one thing among many.

I’ve been reading here but haven’t had the patience to post.

Yet seeing claims about doppelgängers having similar DNA and thus there may have been a doppelgänger for BK makes me feel compelled to point out that, as several have said, they will NOT have the SAME DNA.

My twin and my eldest granddaughter both took 23&Me for fun. I didn’t bother. Yet my twin sister and granddaughter were told they were grandmother and granddaughter.

So just to reinforce what @LinasK and @MassGuy stated above….even identical twins like me, born as two people from one egg that split, will not be the same in life even though we do indeed have identical DNA.

Also identical twins have different fingerprints (formed by how we touch our mother’s womb) and certainly doppelgängers who look similar will have their own unique prints.

My experience.

ETA: Nor drive the same car, as @jepop pointed out!
Thank you so much for sharing this valuable information!
 
I would think the answer to that question is obvious. I'm looking for validation of the proper analysis of the evidence. It is odd that the DNA was only found on one location on the sheath. I would want evidence that the logical touch points of the sheath were swabbed and tested, not just one part of it. If it wasn't done, then I would wonder why and, IMO, that would be something that should be investigated.
Why is that odd? He left his fingerprint on the snap. He wasn''t wearing gloves. That's where he held it. It's not a huge sheath.
 
SBM to answer your points.

Thank you, yes, I am HIGHLY aware of nurture/nature and the impact both have on health and other issues.

My sister and I have also been the subject of a clinical study here in NYC regarding identical twins when only one has had cancer.

I mentioned my twin and granddaughter not because it’s puzzling but the opposite..to affirm the accuracy and value of DNA matching.


My point as it relates to BK and the case is that IMO, looking for a doppelgänger to explain away BK misses the point. An unrelated doppelgänger may have, as you say, “extremely similar DNA,” but it will not be IDENTICAL. It will not MATCH.

From my perspective, looking for this “near miss” person is the desperate search for the unicorn to absolve BK.

And I believe the defense knows it, because why else would they want the DNA excluded from trial??? When obviously if the DNA did not match their client, he would’ve been exonerated long ago.

I agree that there’s been no evidence of fingerprints AFAIK. I threw that in because “singletons” generally believe identical twins have identical prints and therefore can literally get away with murder, and I didn’t want to see that falsehood suggested, as sometimes happens.

JMO and JME
There have been cases of identical twins and they had to determine which one was the murderer. The DeWild brothers in Colorado who murdered one of their wives comes to mind. I'm sure that there are others.
 
The D never said it was
jmo


Alibi submissions

Evidence corroborating Mr. Kohberger being at a location other than the King Road address will be disclosed pursuant to discovery and evidentiary rules as well as statutory requirements. It is anticipated this evidence may be offered by way of cross-examination of witnesses produced by the State as well as calling expert witnesses.


Mr. Kohberger moved to Pullman, Washington in June of 2022. As an avid runner and hiker, he explored many areas of the Palouse. Of note, he explored Wawawai Park in July of 2022 and this became a favorite location. After the school year began, Mr. Kohberger was busy with classes and work at Washington State University and his running and hiking decreased but did not stop. Instead, his nighttime drives increased. This is supported by data from Mr. Kohberger’s phone showing him in the countryside late at night and/or in the early morning on several occasions. The phone data includes numerous photographs taken on several different late evenings and early mornings, including in November, depicting the night sky.

Mr. Kohberger was out driving in the early morning hours of November 13, 2022; as he often did to hike and run and/or see the moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho including Wawawai Park.

PARTIAL CORROBORATION
Mr. Kohberger intends to offer testimony of Sy Ray, CSLI expert.....

Additional information as to Mr. Kohberger’s whereabouts as the early morning hours progressed, including additional analysis by Mr. Ray will be provided....



The D has since provided more discovery to the P (sealed and protected).
jmo
Setting forth info that the defendant was often out driving around alone in the middle of the night is not necessarily a good thing for the jury to ponder. The night skies photos may be helpful. But it might also bring up other questions.
 
In the Judge's analysis:

Kohberger has presented enough evidence to meet the “low threshold” required to show at least some ofthe IGG information sought is material to the preparation of the defense.

The Court cannot say that the material sought will not “play an important role in uncovering admissible evidence, aiding witness preparation, corroborating testimony, or assisting impeachment or rebuttal.” Id. For these reasons, Kohberger has met the “low threshold” required to show at least some of the IGG information is material to the preparation ofthe defense.

It is undisputed that the SNP profile itself is the result of a scientific test done on evidence in the case.

Kohberger has established there is “substantial need” for at least some of the IGG information sought so that he can potentially challenge various parts of the State’s case against him. Although it is feasible that with the SNP profile the defense may be able to conduct their own IGG investigation and learn what the State learned, such work would be time consuming and expensive and would constitute an undue hardship on the defense.


JJJ background section: Page 2.
Chronological order of events.

Judge footnote:
1 At oral argument on August l8, 2023, the Court asked the State directly if any information obtained from the SNP profile, the use of IGG, or the family tree created was used to obtain any warrant in the case. The State represented that it was not. The Court has confirmed that nothing about the use of IGG or a family tree was used in the affidavit to obtain the arrest warrant for Kohberger or in the affidavit to obtain the search warrant for Kohberger’s DNA.


There are two different labs that did IGG work. The Private lab and the fbi.

The State motion for protective order 6/16/23 filed after the D MTC.

States Argument

The State seeks a protective order for a narrow category of information—namely,
information related to the use of IGG in this case.

Specifically, the State seeks to protect the following information:

The raw data related to the SNP profile and the underlying laboratory documentation related to the development of the profile, such as chain of custody forms, laboratory standard operating procedures, analyst notes, etc.

All information related to IGG efforts in creating a family tree and identifying Defendant’s potential relatives, including the identities of the genetic genealogy service(s) and the personally identifying information of Defendant’s relatives.


The States argument cites the cases mentioned arguing why they think it should not be turned over and requesting the in camera review.

The Judge ordered records to be turned over twice (not necessarily the same records).
The Motion to Compel 4/5 (May 2024) was a closed hearing and the Order was never made public.
I expect the agents of the State/State complied with both Orders by JJJ.

I agree that the dates were important to the D, but IMO not the only thing that was important to them.

ALL JMO
Right. As I said, supervision of discovery is a discretionary power of the trial court. Disclosure of information gathered in an IGG investigation is an issue of first impression in Idaho. Each side made their case and the judge agreed to meet in camera with the prosecution to review the materials and decide what was material to BK's defense and should be released to him under discovery. From what we know, this was done.
JMO
 
IMO, we don't know enough about the DNA in this case to decide what it really means. It is very difficult to assess evidence without actually seeing the evidence and/or reports on it. Could BK have some second through sixth cousin that could be mistaken for him in a degraded DNA sample? There are around 97,000 males out there that make that answer an absolute yes. (97,000 is the average number of male cousins most Americans have in the 1st through 6th generation.)

This is not unusual, parents are sometimes mis-attributed, even with sisters and brothers who are not identical twins in DNA testing.

IMO, something is wrong with the IGG in this case. I don't know what that is specifically yet, but there IS evidence for my assertion is several of the hearings. Today's closed hearing may be about this issue.




Before these murders happened, BK took a DNA test to learn about his ancestry, so it seems, he would still have access to that via his attorney. This makes me wonder what the defense knows about BK's DNA. Clearly in the hearings, there has been something they are very concerned about.
Snipped by me--are you saying that maybe the dna pulled from the sheath was so degraded the profile produced was BK's rather than a close or distant cousin who was the one who actually left the dna?

You yourself have said that you've never suggested the defense thinks the dna is not BK's and have never suggested you think that either. But if the defense thinks the dna is not his, wouldn't they attack the match, not the IGG?
JMO
 
Snipped by me--are you saying that maybe the dna pulled from the sheath was so degraded the profile produced was BK's rather than a close or distant cousin who was the one who actually left the dna?

You yourself have said that you've never suggested the defense thinks the dna is not BK's and have never suggested you think that either. But if the defense thinks the dna is not his, wouldn't they attack the match, not the IGG?
JMO

Right - there is an internal inconsistency in that argument. If you believe the reason they found BK at all is the IGG, then logically it is his DNA, proven because it was a subsequent match.

You can argue about how it got there but it must be his otherwise they never would have identified him in the first place.

Especially the idea that his DNA should have been completely degraded - that does not match to observed reality. A decent enough trace was lifted to provide an exact match.

Will the defence be running their own testing to show it isn't a match?

MOO
 
On a different note. Re BK potentially stalking / monitoring the household.

I've been wondering about the officer body cam footage of LE attending the noisy parties at the house in which they give warnings to quieten down and speak to the young students. There was at least two occasions, maybe more.

Prior to the murders, would that body cam footage have been in the public domain where someone like BK can request access and view it? In the same way that sometimes us sleuths are able to access public domain CCTV.

We know that BK was interested in joining LE. Is it possible that if he viewed footage, this is where his interest in the household sparked? Or would that footage never have been accessible to him or the public?
 
Also, we have briefly mentioned before the possibility that he may have prowled around his own family's home at night. I don't imagine it will come up at trial, that anyone will be interested in raising it, and it should be completely unnecessary anyway. Still, I know what I think, and they say practice makes perfect.
 
Also, we have briefly mentioned before the possibility that he may have prowled around his own family's home at night. I don't imagine it will come up at trial, that anyone will be interested in raising it, and it should be completely unnecessary anyway. Still, I know what I think, and they say practice makes perfect.

Stalking is a huge red flag. I am sure it's not something he started doing that night.
 
Only that the bovine DNA should have been detected and listed on the lab report along with the (at the time) unknown human DNA sample. If it was not detected, then why not?

So my point is, we need to see the lab report before we decide anything about the DNA report on the sheath or even trust its accuracy.
I am truly not understanding. You state;
"Bovine dNA should have been detected and listed in the lab report...".

What lab report? There have been many lab reports exchanged in the discovery imo ( check out the Bates refs in MTCs 1 and 2 from 2023 and state responses to get an inkling). Moo

We, the public, haven't seen any lab reports, true. But why would we see details of discovery in this case? Just incomprehensible to me what you are saying here. What we have are some specific motions specifically addressing the single source male forensic sample from the snap, and the subsequent successful full str profiling of that sample. Moo but see the motions by both sides.

I don't see why there would not be lab reports related to the surface swabbing of the sheathe as a whole, which have not been relevant to any pretrial motions so far. As far as we can tell. Moo

You ask;
" if it was not detected, then why not?"

Why even do you ask? Certainly BK's defense hasn't said a dime about missing Bovine DNA. Ditto for the prosecution. Sure, you can speculate it wasn't detected but why? If it's the norm for labs, or ISL in particular, to run tests for bovine DNA when they receive leather knife sheathes found under victims' of homicide, then my assumption is that that the ISL would have done so. Moo

That is, if that is the policy. Do have a source saying it is the policy? Because why would it be? An appropriate technician or whatever can confirm, "this is a leather knife sheathe" Imo. That can be done without getting a specialist to specifically test the sheathe for Bovine DNA. Jmo.

You conclude:
"So my point is, we need to see the lab report before we decide anything about the DNA report on the sheath or even trust its accuracy."

Again, sorry but failing to see any logical connection between this hypothetical lab report re Bovine Dna and the DnA reports related to the snap button single source male forensic sample. Moo
 
Right - there is an internal inconsistency in that argument. If you believe the reason they found BK at all is the IGG, then logically it is his DNA, proven because it was a subsequent match.

You can argue about how it got there but it must be his otherwise they never would have identified him in the first place.

Especially the idea that his DNA should have been completely degraded - that does not match to observed reality. A decent enough trace was lifted to provide an exact match.

Will the defence be running their own testing to show it isn't a match?

MOO

The defense admits it is a match, they said maybe it went through too many LE hands thus was planted. Right there they admit it is his DNA. They do not dispute that the Idaho State Lab made a mistake.

This line of reasoning went no where because the defense has no evidence to back it up. Evidence must be presented. There is zero evidence that the Moscow police or the Idaho lab or the FBI screwed up the strict chain of custody protocols. There were vert strict custody protocols in place to bag and seal the sheath and run it to the lab.

The only recourse is to have the judge throw out the DNA evidence and there is zero sign of this happening. When evidence is overwhelming such as DNA then the defense's literal job is to try to get the evidence excluded.

DNA is the most important evidence to a jury, I have posted many links on this. Legitimate studies.

BK will be sitting on death row unless he plea deals out of it.


2 Cents
 
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