48 Hours and Paradise Lost; West Memphis Three

The most interesting thing about the documentary is how it got made.

The directors saw a small article in the NYT(?) (They are not from that area.) and decided to go and make a documentary on what would cause three young kids to do such a horrible act on three small children. At the time they assumed they were guilty. However, the film they originally wanted to make never got made. Instead the documentary turned into how three kids got railroaded to jail.
Actually that's not really how it happened.

Paradise lost was a part of HBO's "America undercover" series.

HBO already had a crew in Arkansas when the crimes occurred filming "Gang wars: Banging in Little Rock" - and they then contracted "Creative thinking" (Berlinger and Sinofski's company) to cover the case.

Furthermore, Berlinger and Sinofsky decided Echols was innocent after speaking with him for five minutes before the trial - they had not seen or heard any evidence whatsoever.

He was brought out in shackles and an orange prison suit, and we were in back with the press, and at one point he cranes his neck and looks around. And Bruce and I jabbed each other like, "oh god, he's so evil, did you see that look he gave everybody?" and we just felt all this evil. There was this murmur through the crowd, "Oooh look at Damien, he's so evil, ooooh." And then later I sat down and met him, and within five minutes of talking to him, not only did I feel he was innocent, but all that evil that I had projected on him washed away.

It was then that they set out to "generate a groundswell of support" for him by admittedly manipulating the events to present a "higher emotional truth".

I totally acknowledge that this film is very subjective. Hopefully what the film is doing, and why I feel OK about the subjectivity, is that we're going for a higher emotional truth.

People need to realize when watching the film that you don't see a single cross examination of a Defense witness - all that wound up on the cutting room floor.

Why?

Because the Defense was absolutely shredded in the courtroom.

Berlinger and Sinofsky presented nothing but Defense arguments - and that's why so many supporters still insist that the Prosecution never presented a case.

That's also why Berlinger admitted that those who were directly involved in the case didn't swallow the film.

But strangely enough, the film is ambiguous enough that those who are directly involved look at the film and see confirmation of their own viewpoints. Which is both a strength and a weakness of the film. Actually, on a personal level I think it's a weakness, because it's too ambiguous to have whipped up the groundswell of support for Damien that I hoped it would.

http://www.salon.com/nov96/paradise961118.html

The films were a total ruse - as is the supporter movement which followed.
 
48 Hours is a hack job. Sorry. I don't believe anything they do. Not after working with them on the JonBenet Ramsey/John Karr fiasco.

The producer (the one who tried to blackmail David Letterman) was so difficult to work with. Not nice at all.

I won't go into the details but I will say I found 48 hours to be interested in what sells and not the truth at all. Truth meant nothing to them in my situation and I swear to you I am not exaggerating nor am I embellishing. It was shocking.

Now, that was just one producer and maybe the others are OK.

From everything I have read about the West Memphis 3 it appears they were railroaded.

My heart tells me they are 100 percent innocent and so far the evidence suggest it too.



Thank you. I agree about 48 hours. they go for ratings that I understand. I didn't see too much truth in the MacDonald story they presented or the Darlie Routier story. That's why I'm reluctant to believe this piece
 
Actually that's not really how it happened.


Furthermore, Berlinger and Sinofsky decided Echols was innocent after speaking with him for five minutes before the trial - they had not seen or heard any evidence whatsoever.


Yeah right, now that's objective of them. Totally ridiculous, how can you tell someone is innocent by speaking with them for five minutes. Total manipulation.
 
Um with all due respect, I'd be very careful of believing anything on 48 Hours. The reason I say this is I know of a few cases they have profiled where their information was mostly incorrect...it's not like they investigate a case. I also find it impossible to believe that Johnny Depp investigated this case.

In saying that, I know nothing about this case but what I've seen on tv. I don't know if they are guilty or innocent...but that Damien has a long history of mental illness and violence. None of that was brought out in the 48 hours program. Nor does Miskelly sound like he has the intelligence of a five=year old. He seemed pretty intelligent and articulate to me.

Can you elaborate about how you know this about Damien?:waitasec:
 
Can you elaborate about how you know this about Damien?:waitasec:


I'm not Cami so she might have another source, but here is one,
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html.

It's rather large, but definitely is worth the read for insights into Damien's psyche and mental history.
It's rather telling to me that Damien was on full disability due to his mental illness, it's extremely hard to receive full disability.
 
Here are some highlights:

5/92. E. Arkansas Mental Health Center: Client admits to having been suspended seven times this past semester for initiating fights at school and starting fires. States in one fight he almost gouged out the victim’s eyes.

Clinical report based on psychological tests: The behavior of this youngster is characterized by impulsive hostility...the desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances. This teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others. Cool and distant, this youth demonstrates little or no compassion for others.

5/19/92. Damien arrested for breaking into a trailer with his 15 year old girlfriend, Deanna Holcomb. Suicide pact if they couldn’t be together. Damien threatening to kill police officers and Deanna’s father when picked up. Convicted of second-degree burglary and sexual misconduct.

5/19/92 to 6/1/92. Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center.
Damien voiced suicide plan to folks at the center. Staff reported that Damien and Deanna planned to have a baby and sacrifice it. Damien knocked a peer to the ground, sucked the blood from the boy’s wounded arm and rubbed the blood on his face. No remorse. Deanna is hospitalized at Mid-South Hospital in Memphis.

Joyce Cureton, Juvenile Director, reported that “it is our opinion that Damien needs mental health treatment.”

6/1/92 to 6/25/92. Charter Hospital of Little Rock. Immediate hospitalization due to suicidal intent.

Admits to a history of violence and attempting to scratch out the eyes of a classmate. There were major concerns that Damien was exhibiting disturbed thinking. He has a history of extreme physical aggression toward others. It was felt that he needed to be temporarily removed from his environment to provide protection for him and protection for others.

Damien states, “I burn myself with lighters. I have huffed gas and paint, used speed, marijuana, glue, and alcohol.”

Progress Notes:

Damien stated that he got ahold of a police officer’s gun, and that if Deanna’s father had acted aggressively, “I would have blown him away and the next time I will eliminate that person.”

Denies having a conscience or feelings of regret.

Stares into space and shows no emotional response to any kind of stimuli.

Verbalized concern that there are surveillance cameras behind his mirror and under the desk in his room. Quite paranoid; he definitely bears watching.

Still drawing witchcraft symbols & continues to speak of bizarre and unusual practices.

Makes an unusual sound with his mouth that sounds like a cat purr.

States that visit with parents didn’t go well, but would not elaborate.

Damien’s mother concerned about her son “not learning to deal with anger and rages.” Thinks Damien is responding to outside stimulation. Voiced fear that “son may be crazy.”

6/25/92. Damien discharged to mother with instructions for continuing care. Family moving to Oregon.

8/13/92 Home Visit Evaluation by Calvin Downey, Oregon Juvenile Counselor:

Damien indicates he did spend approximately 30 days in a psychiatric hospital via court order, because he was suicidal. He feel his prior depression has improved greatly. Denies use of nonprescribed, controlled substances or alcohol.

Mrs. Echols indicates there are no family conflicts with Damien, that he gets along well with the family, that she does not believe he has a behavioral problem & that she does not need any services from this state.

9/1/92. Officer Ortez is called to the Echols’ apartment in Oregon. Damien transported to St. Vincent’s Hospital.

Emergency Room Report: The patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation. However, in talking with family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thoughts of harming other people, i.e. was going to cut mother’s throat, and also made verbal threats to his father here at St. Vincent’s.

Parents state that he has sniffed propane, glue, gasoline and almost any other drug that is possible. Parental concerns regarding satanism, devil worship.

Admission diagnosis: Suicidal/homicidal ideation.

9/4/92. Discharged from St. Vincent’s. Because of Damien’s threats, both parents do not feel that they wish to have him return to their home. They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to the other children who reside in the home (2 others). Damien is to return to Arkansas by bus.

9/14/92 to 9/28/92. Readmitted to Charter Hospital from Juvenile Detention Center. He admitted to sucking the blood out of a peer’s neck while in the Center. The other peers were afraid of him. Threats to kill both parents (slash throats, eat alive).

Presenting problem: Homicidal and psychosis. Alteration in thought processes evidenced by delusional thinking and inappropriate social behavior.

Progress notes: Belief in devil worship, has agreed to threatening to “kill” others. Bizarre behaviors. Stated he had attempted suicide before and “wasn’t worried about trying again, because I know I can come back.”

Says he’s going to eat father and that he needs to be locked up or he will hurt someone.

Peers complaining of Damien making growling sounds at them.

Continues talk of satanism. Possible deprogramming needed. Could be a danger to others.

Continues laughing strangely and getting peers to feed into his satanism. Tries to keep staff from seeing him do anything other than what’s appropriate according to unit guidelines. Depressed mood, bizarre behavior.

Said he was “happy to be here because otherwise he’d be in jail and this has to be better.”

Spoke with Jerry Driver re: Damien’s discharge to stepfather Jack Echols. Said this was “ok”.

Diagnosis: Psychotic Disorder NOS and Dysthymia. Prognosis: Poor.

1/5/93. Mental Health Center reopens case: Reports self-mutilation, cutting self with knives. Will “trance out” since 5th grade - doesn’t have to deal with what’s going on. Says he thinks a lot about life after death--”I want to go where the monsters go.” He admits being caught with satanic items, but denies cult involvement.

Is interested in witchcraft for the past 8 years. He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others’ minds with witchcraft. Describes self as “pretty much hates the human race.” Relates that he feels people are in two classes--sheep and wolves (wolves eat the sheep).

1/13/93: Damien reports that he’s very angry with family members and with other people who have “let him down”. He discussed issues of power & control. He states that he could make things happen. Affect and mood was flat.

1/19/93: Reveals history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. States, “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger - like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up.” Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to “hurt someone.” When questioned on his feelings he states, “I know I’m going to influence the world. People will remember me.”

1/20/93: Damien is an 18 year old, recently discharged from Charter Hospital. He’s had three psychiatric hospitalizations. Each has been associated with anger, thoughts of killing others, and thoughts of killing himself.

1/25/93: Speaks of rituals, drinking blood, more involved in demonology. Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states, “It makes me feel like a god.”


Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10. He wants very much to be all powerful. He wants very much to be in total control.

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago, the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits. This is achieved through rituals.

He denies that he’s satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology.

Affect and mood today continued to be bland, although there was more emotion when talking about drinking blood.

2/5/93: Damien is noted to have cuts on his right arm and hand. Related that he cut himself as a way of permanently marking his skin. Related feeling very angry yesterday when running into previous girlfriend. “I controlled it - I can do anything.”

5/5/93: At times he is impulsive and does things that may be harmful to him. He has impulses to do strange and harmful things.


Suffice to say, the Echols presented by his supporters is a far cry from the one who committed this crime,.. the real one.
 
I'm not Cami so she might have another source, but here is one,
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html.

It's rather large, but definitely is worth the read for insights into Damien's psyche and mental history.
It's rather telling to me that Damien was on full disability due to his mental illness, it's extremely hard to receive full disability.

Thank you so much for this. I am at page 60 and have to stop for the night. So far, worth the read.
 
Here are some highlights:

5/92. E. Arkansas Mental Health Center: Client admits to having been suspended seven times this past semester for initiating fights at school and starting fires. States in one fight he almost gouged out the victim’s eyes.

Clinical report based on psychological tests: The behavior of this youngster is characterized by impulsive hostility...the desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances. This teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others. Cool and distant, this youth demonstrates little or no compassion for others.

5/19/92. Damien arrested for breaking into a trailer with his 15 year old girlfriend, Deanna Holcomb. Suicide pact if they couldn’t be together. Damien threatening to kill police officers and Deanna’s father when picked up. Convicted of second-degree burglary and sexual misconduct.

5/19/92 to 6/1/92. Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center.
Damien voiced suicide plan to folks at the center. Staff reported that Damien and Deanna planned to have a baby and sacrifice it. Damien knocked a peer to the ground, sucked the blood from the boy’s wounded arm and rubbed the blood on his face. No remorse. Deanna is hospitalized at Mid-South Hospital in Memphis.

Joyce Cureton, Juvenile Director, reported that “it is our opinion that Damien needs mental health treatment.”

6/1/92 to 6/25/92. Charter Hospital of Little Rock. Immediate hospitalization due to suicidal intent.

Admits to a history of violence and attempting to scratch out the eyes of a classmate. There were major concerns that Damien was exhibiting disturbed thinking. He has a history of extreme physical aggression toward others. It was felt that he needed to be temporarily removed from his environment to provide protection for him and protection for others.

Damien states, “I burn myself with lighters. I have huffed gas and paint, used speed, marijuana, glue, and alcohol.”

Progress Notes:

Damien stated that he got ahold of a police officer’s gun, and that if Deanna’s father had acted aggressively, “I would have blown him away and the next time I will eliminate that person.”

Denies having a conscience or feelings of regret.

Stares into space and shows no emotional response to any kind of stimuli.

Verbalized concern that there are surveillance cameras behind his mirror and under the desk in his room. Quite paranoid; he definitely bears watching.

Still drawing witchcraft symbols & continues to speak of bizarre and unusual practices.

Makes an unusual sound with his mouth that sounds like a cat purr.

States that visit with parents didn’t go well, but would not elaborate.

Damien’s mother concerned about her son “not learning to deal with anger and rages.” Thinks Damien is responding to outside stimulation. Voiced fear that “son may be crazy.”

6/25/92. Damien discharged to mother with instructions for continuing care. Family moving to Oregon.

8/13/92 Home Visit Evaluation by Calvin Downey, Oregon Juvenile Counselor:

Damien indicates he did spend approximately 30 days in a psychiatric hospital via court order, because he was suicidal. He feel his prior depression has improved greatly. Denies use of nonprescribed, controlled substances or alcohol.

Mrs. Echols indicates there are no family conflicts with Damien, that he gets along well with the family, that she does not believe he has a behavioral problem & that she does not need any services from this state.

9/1/92. Officer Ortez is called to the Echols’ apartment in Oregon. Damien transported to St. Vincent’s Hospital.

Emergency Room Report: The patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation. However, in talking with family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thoughts of harming other people, i.e. was going to cut mother’s throat, and also made verbal threats to his father here at St. Vincent’s.

Parents state that he has sniffed propane, glue, gasoline and almost any other drug that is possible. Parental concerns regarding satanism, devil worship.

Admission diagnosis: Suicidal/homicidal ideation.

9/4/92. Discharged from St. Vincent’s. Because of Damien’s threats, both parents do not feel that they wish to have him return to their home. They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to the other children who reside in the home (2 others). Damien is to return to Arkansas by bus.

9/14/92 to 9/28/92. Readmitted to Charter Hospital from Juvenile Detention Center. He admitted to sucking the blood out of a peer’s neck while in the Center. The other peers were afraid of him. Threats to kill both parents (slash throats, eat alive).

Presenting problem: Homicidal and psychosis. Alteration in thought processes evidenced by delusional thinking and inappropriate social behavior.

Progress notes: Belief in devil worship, has agreed to threatening to “kill” others. Bizarre behaviors. Stated he had attempted suicide before and “wasn’t worried about trying again, because I know I can come back.”

Says he’s going to eat father and that he needs to be locked up or he will hurt someone.

Peers complaining of Damien making growling sounds at them.

Continues talk of satanism. Possible deprogramming needed. Could be a danger to others.

Continues laughing strangely and getting peers to feed into his satanism. Tries to keep staff from seeing him do anything other than what’s appropriate according to unit guidelines. Depressed mood, bizarre behavior.

Said he was “happy to be here because otherwise he’d be in jail and this has to be better.”

Spoke with Jerry Driver re: Damien’s discharge to stepfather Jack Echols. Said this was “ok”.

Diagnosis: Psychotic Disorder NOS and Dysthymia. Prognosis: Poor.

1/5/93. Mental Health Center reopens case: Reports self-mutilation, cutting self with knives. Will “trance out” since 5th grade - doesn’t have to deal with what’s going on. Says he thinks a lot about life after death--”I want to go where the monsters go.” He admits being caught with satanic items, but denies cult involvement.

Is interested in witchcraft for the past 8 years. He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others’ minds with witchcraft. Describes self as “pretty much hates the human race.” Relates that he feels people are in two classes--sheep and wolves (wolves eat the sheep).

1/13/93: Damien reports that he’s very angry with family members and with other people who have “let him down”. He discussed issues of power & control. He states that he could make things happen. Affect and mood was flat.

1/19/93: Reveals history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. States, “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger - like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up.” Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to “hurt someone.” When questioned on his feelings he states, “I know I’m going to influence the world. People will remember me.”

1/20/93: Damien is an 18 year old, recently discharged from Charter Hospital. He’s had three psychiatric hospitalizations. Each has been associated with anger, thoughts of killing others, and thoughts of killing himself.

1/25/93: Speaks of rituals, drinking blood, more involved in demonology. Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states, “It makes me feel like a god.”


Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10. He wants very much to be all powerful. He wants very much to be in total control.

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago, the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits. This is achieved through rituals.

He denies that he’s satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology.

Affect and mood today continued to be bland, although there was more emotion when talking about drinking blood.

2/5/93: Damien is noted to have cuts on his right arm and hand. Related that he cut himself as a way of permanently marking his skin. Related feeling very angry yesterday when running into previous girlfriend. “I controlled it - I can do anything.”

5/5/93: At times he is impulsive and does things that may be harmful to him. He has impulses to do strange and harmful things.


Suffice to say, the Echols presented by his supporters is a far cry from the one who committed this crime,.. the real one.

......and people think he's innocent because?

Sorry I just don't get it. Damien is a classic psychopath from everything I have ever seen of him....I thought this was clearly evident in the Paradise Lost Documentaries by his demeanour in all interviews and by the history presented there, and the above list just seals it.

Guilty as charged IMO. The other two boys were likely less involved, but I believe they were both present.
 
......and people think he's innocent because?
That's the million dollar question.

And one supporters simply refuse to answer.

Just like the failed Defense, they will throw out a dozen alternate suspects, but never once offer anything to indicate that the convicts are innocent.

And let's face it, the time for arguing reasonable doubt is long gone - the presumption is guilt now.

The burden rests squarely on the convicts, and that burden is proof of actual innocence - a burden made even heavier by the fact that Misskelley's statements are admissable against Echols and Baldwin in any appellate proceedings.

That's why these appeals have failed for 16 years, and why they always will.
 
That's the million dollar question.

And one supporters simply refuse to answer.

Just like the failed Defense, they will throw out a dozen alternate suspects, but never once offer anything to indicate that the convicts are innocent.

And let's face it, the time for arguing reasonable doubt is long gone - the presumption is guilt now.

The burden rests squarely on the convicts, and that burden is proof of actual innocence - a burden made even heavier by the fact that Misskelley's statements are admissable against Echols and Baldwin in any appellate proceedings.

That's why these appeals have failed for 16 years, and why they always will.

The main thing i am having trouble with is the other two. I don't know how they fit in or what their participation level was, but what I have seen so far of Paradise lost leads me to believe their roles were much smaller. When I think that, however, I wonder why they didn't turn against Damien. This case gets more confusing the deeper I get into it. I wish I had had the information the rest of you posted here a long time ago. Still, I have it now and it is truly mind boggling. I will keep trudging along.
 
I live in Austalia and had never heard of this case until the two Paradise Lost docs were aired on pay tv. After watching them I was an avid supporter and totally convinced of their innocence, however after much research and many hours of reading I tend to lean more towards them being guilty. These films were highly biased in my opinion and if they were the only resource available everyone would believe these boys were innocent. The constant demonising of Mark byers was disturbing also. They took advantage of a man whose low intelligence, petty crminalism and hunger for attention made him vulnerable.
 
These films were highly biased in my opinion
It's not just your opinion - it's an open public admission from the film makers who decided Echols was innocent after speaking with him for five minutes.
The constant demonising of Mark byers was disturbing also.
When you have nothing to exculpate your client, your only option is deflection.
 
...Suffice to say, the Echols presented by his supporters is a far cry from the one who committed this crime,.. the real one.

I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive. There's no question that Echols was a troubled teenager 17 years ago. But that's hardly proof that he isn't a very different person now, as he approaches middle-age after nearly two decades on death row.

What bothers me more about the psychiatric records is that I just don't see the link between the things he did--however odd--in the years leading up to the murders and the actual murders themselves. This isn't to say his psych history makes participation in--even the masterminding of--the murders impossible, just that I don't find the former very compelling evidence of the latter.
 
I live in Austalia and had never heard of this case until the two Paradise Lost docs were aired on pay tv. After watching them I was an avid supporter and totally convinced of their innocence, however after much research and many hours of reading I tend to lean more towards them being guilty. These films were highly biased in my opinion and if they were the only resource available everyone would believe these boys were innocent. The constant demonising of Mark byers was disturbing also. They took advantage of a man whose low intelligence, petty crminalism and hunger for attention made him vulnerable.

If advantage was taken of Mark Byers, he certainly did everything possible to help make it happen.

I can understand why low intelligence and lack of intelligence are considered factors in the manipulation of the parents of the victims. What I don't understand is why the same factors are considered by so many (perhaps not us, aussiesleuth) to be irrelevant when it comes to Jessie Misskelley.
 
Well, for one,.... none of the parents confessed to participating in a triple homicide for months and months.

And second,... it's more than clear that Misskelley's defense tried to fabricate evidence that Misskelley "lacked intelligence".
 
I agree with Nova again! Dirty Larry I took your advice and read the transcripts of the confessions and most of the information regarding Jessie, which is my starting point and you don't need any fabrication - you don't need a degree to see that Jesse certainly lacks intelligence. Whether or not a few IQ points were shaved off intentionally as you assert, is a moot point because Jesse is NOT intelligent; Jessie is uneducated and he may even have arrested development, but since I'm no PhD or MD I can't state any of that for sure.

What I can state is that trying so hard to make it seem as though there is no merit to the argument that Jessie is of lower intelligence and fits the profile of someone who could be easily influenced or led (and there was plenty of leading in the police questioning) errodes your credibility because it's just plain obvious. A fact is a fact.
 
Whether or not a few IQ points were shaved off intentionally
It wasn't just a few.
as you assert,
It's not an assertion, it's the direct results of the defense witnesses' own test results.

is a moot point
No, it isn't.

When a Defense witness essentially testifies that he manipulated test results to support a particular defense strategy, then the entire Defense comes into question.
What I can state is that trying so hard to make it seem as though there is no merit to the argument that Jessie is of lower intelligence and fits the profile of someone who could be easily influenced or led
It isn't really an effort to show there is no merit to the argument that Jessie is of lower intelligence and fits the profile of someone who could be easily influenced or led - The Defense witnesses did most of the work at trial.
(and there was plenty of leading in the police questioning)
Really?

Since Misskelley had already confessed prior to the recording, perhaps you can show us which questions were leading vs. which were simply reiterating what Misskelley had already told them?
errodes your credibility because it's just plain obvious.
Since you don't seem to have a rational explaination for why Misskelley went on to tell his own attorneys the same story for months after his arrest, It's probably not my credibility you need be concerned about.
A fact is a fact.
Generally facts are suppported by evidence.

I presented mine from the trial.

Where is yours?
 
It wasn't just a few.

It's not an assertion, it's the direct results of the witnesses own testimony.


No, it isn't.

When a Defense witness essentially testifies that he manipulated test results to support a particular defense strategy, then the entire Defense comes into question.

It isn't really an effort - The Defense witnesses did most of the work.


Really?

Since Misskelley had already confessed prior to the recording, perhaps you can show us which questions were leading vs. which were simply reiterating what Misskelley had already told them?

Since you don't seem to have a rational explaination for why Misskelley went on to tell his own attorneys the same story for months after his arrest, It's probably not my credibility you need be concerned about.

Generally facts are suppported by evidence.

I presented mine from the trial.

Where is yours?
When a Defense witness essentially testifies that he manipulated test results to support a particular defense strategy, then the entire Defense comes into question.

Wrong. It is a moot point, because the intelligence level IS the major factor in determining the ability of Jesse to give a waiver knowlingly, voluntarily and intelligently as the law requires, not the defense team's actions. His intelligence level, educational level, psychological level are all important factors and must be used in the test to weight the validity of a waiver of rights or a confession. You are trying to toss sand in the face of justice.

Where is your evidence that he went on to tell the same story to his own attorneys for months afterwards? (which by the way there was never a same story, it changed every time; he left before they were dead, then he saw them die; he left before they were put in the water then he saw them put in the water but could never describe how they were put there; he arrived at 9 am, no noon, no when it was getting dark, no when it was still light out...then he was so drunk he was sick, but he went to wrestling that night and on and on. So many inconsistencies in all honesty it's a joke) The only documentation is the confession made against the advice of his attorneys. His own attorneys told you that he told them the same story several times after his arrest or what? And there is a very rational explanation for why he turned against his attorneys.

I can spot the leading questions and can't figure out why you can't. Try this link and there is a good spotting of some very leading questions.

http://www.freewebs.com/boohiss13/misskelleyconfessions.htm

I'm not sure whether I think the police intended to do that or were just not well trained; but they do seem to keep suggesting things and when Jessie fails to be able to articulate any understandable sequence or detail...do they intentionally let it be vague? I think so.

You did not answer to the fact that in order for his civil rights to have not been violated here, that his waiver of miranda, and right to counsel has to encompass "the totality of the circumstances" which I believe it does not. His intelligence level, maturity level, education level, whether he reasonably believed he was free to go, his AGE for gosh sakes, the size of the room - all things must be considered to prove that he knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily waived these rights and gave this confession and I just don't see it. Jessie Jr. and Jessie Sr. were hoodwinked more than once. When I get done with all things Jessie I'll move on to the others but I'm shocked and appalled at this confession ever coming into court...and I'm no defense attorney fan!!! I am however a very big fan of our constitutional rights and I believe his were violated. AND I've lived in the South and I know that it's a different culture in the people and in the courts - wink wink, nod nod. That's all I have to say about that (in my best Forrest Gump voice).

So basically whether test results were manipulated or not, the factor is that Jessie was not and adult, was not mature, intelligent, or educated and could have been psychologically incapable of getting a fair shake in that interrogation room. End of story.
 
Yes, you are.
It is a moot point, because the intelligence level IS the major factor in determining the ability of Jesse to give a waiver knowlingly, voluntarily and intelligently as the law requires, not the defense team's actions.
I Don't know how to break this to you, but Misskelley had knowlingly, voluntarily and intelligently given his waiver many times in the past.

Perhaps when you get the opportunity, you can have a look at the pre-trial hearings which covered this extensively.
Where is your evidence that he went on to tell the same story to his own attorneys for months afterwards?
Will Stidham's web-site do for you?

Jessie Misskelley Sr. had become something of a pain. Every time Dan and Greg turned on the news, there was "Big Jessie" talking to the press, telling them a story about his son having been wrestling fifty miles away in Dyess, Arkansas, when the murders were committed. And yet Little Jessie kept telling Dan the story he'd told the police. Dan figured the father was just in denial.

http://www.stidhamlawfirm.com/grisham.html

If that's not enough, there's always Stidham's testimony at Misskelley's Rule 37 hearing.
(which by the way there was never a same story, it changed every time
Not according to Stidham...

In every meeting Dan and Greg had with their client, Misskelley never wavered from his story.

The only documentation is the confession made against the advice of his attorneys.
You are painfully misinformed, which is something you might want to take into consideration BEFORE you expound on this case with such.... "authority".
His own attorneys told you that he told them the same story several times after his arrest or what?
Since it's on his website, It's not really ever been a secret or anything.

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that you aren't as familiar with the facts of this case as you would like to believe?
And there is a very rational explanation for why he turned against his attorneys.
You seem confused again.

You were asked to provide a rational explaination for why he maintained his participation in the crime for months after his arrest.

You were also asked to show us when the Prosecution had the opportunity to speak with Misskelley prior to his post conviction confessions.

If you can't answer, just say so.
do they intentionally let it be vague? I think so.
So in other words, you CAN'T show us which questions were leading, and which were simply reiterating what Misskelley had already told them.
You did not answer to the fact that in order for his civil rights to have not been violated here, that his waiver of miranda, and right to counsel has to encompass "the totality of the circumstances" which I believe it does not.
That's probably because you have never read a line of testimony from the pre-trial hearing where all of this was covered.
His intelligence level, maturity level, education level, whether he reasonably believed he was free to go, his AGE for gosh sakes, the size of the room - all things must be considered to prove that he knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily waived these rights and gave this confession and I just don't see it.
I'm certainly not surprised, given you aren't even remotely familiar with the hearing where this was covered.

I can help you if you like?
Jessie Jr. and Jessie Sr. were hoodwinked more than once.
I notice you are awfully short on examples?

What's up with that?
When I get done with all things Jessie I'll move on
Since you haven't presented a single thing to support any claim you have made, and in fact have been proven wrong the majority of the time, I don't see you finishing with "all things Jessie" anytime soon.
I'm shocked and appalled at this confession ever coming into court
It might help you to look into the proceedings where that decision was made.

That way you can actually address the issue.
I am however a very big fan of our constitutional rights and I believe his were violated.
But then, you really couldn't know, could you?

I mean, you didn't even know where the post conviction statement took place, let alone that there was a pre-trial hearing regarding Misskelley's MANY prior Miranda waivers.
That's all I have to say about that
Probably for the best, until you get some handle on what actually took place and all.
So basically whether test results were manipulated or not, the factor is that Jessie was not and adult, was not mature, intelligent, or educated and could have been psychologically incapable of getting a fair shake in that interrogation room.
Still can't come to terms with the fact that Misskelley maintained his participation in this crime to his own attorneys for months after his arrest I see.

It's a bitter pill for those who were... "hoodwinked" by Paradise lost.
End of story.
I can understand your urgency to evade this particular discussion at this point, given how oblivious you are to what actually took place, but I'm afraid that even though you may be finished, that doesn't preclude others here from pointing out that you've been wrong about pretty much every point you have raised, and have avoided every question asked of you.

I mean, if you don't intend to support any of your claims, you can just say that?
 

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