A new thought

midwest mama

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Personally for me, the photos of the garrote and how it is tightly and neatly tied around the handle of the paintbrush strike me as being done by someone that understands knots, rope, and is strong. I don't see PR or BR being that person but from all accounts JR fits the bill.

BBM

Good equivocation. The end result of the cord around the broken brush does appear to have required both a good amount of tension and coordination applied concurrently, with a sense of what the end result would be. This signals hand strength and familiarity with process.
 

Anyhoo

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This has been my opinion since day one. PR caught JR moslesting JBR, & tried to hit JB with the mother of all mag lights, hit JBR by mistake, and then JB had to finish her off. OK, why did JR take JBR to Amsterdam, why did JR (the perv) have Beth's picture in his shower? Who keeps a pictire of their dead daughter in their their shower??

That is one possible reason why PR would inflict the head bash. I have always questioned the flashlight being the head bash weapon, although many people seem to think so. To me it is too convenient that it was left where it was to be found by LE. My thought is the flashlight is staging. I could see one of the golf clubs being the head bash weapon though, or perhaps something else entirely.

I did not hear about some of the things you mentioned, such as JR taking JBR to Amsterdam and JR having Beth's picture in the shower. Can you give any references to that?
 

Anyhoo

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To me, this doesn't explain why PR kept quiet all that time afterward. If she were angry enough to attack him, why would she abide the cover up and not blast him for what he did to her pretty baby?

I see your point. If PR inflicted the head bash for that reason, I cannot see her keeping quiet and covering for JR. I suspect the head bash happened for a different reason. Either PR or BR could have inflicted it.
 

questfortrue

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To me, this doesn't explain why PR kept quiet all that time afterward. If she were angry enough to attack him, why would she abide the cover up and not blast him for what he did to her pretty baby?

Limited as the forensic evidence is, the RN and much of the fiber evidence point to PR. Imo, she was more vulnerable to the preponderance of evidence than JR. And once the crime happened and they were both involved in JB’s death, fear of prison was a powerful motivator.

There are also some theories out there about a co-dependency and complexity of family dynamics. Remember these gals:
Wanda Barzee - co-conspirator of Brian David Mitchell who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart
Nancy Garrido - co-conspirator of Philip Garrido who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard

And then you have some of the queens of denial:
Jerry Sandusky’s wife
Mother of Marilyn Van Derbur
 

Anyhoo

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Something that just popped into my head, I always felt that JR woke up that morning to PR and just kind of stepped in the mess, I got that feeling mostly from Steve Thomas' book. I thought that PR had come upon jonbenet and BR that night, after an accident or whatever caused the head wound, and did the staging, and woke JR when the 911 call was placed, when she felt her staging was finished with. But I don't see PR doing the garrotte. I wonder if JR woke up, realized what the situation was, added the garrotte thinking PR didn't do enough to cover up, and then everything went from there.

I just can't see PR or JR covering for each other after all these years. I can only see them covering for a child. But, I can see JR waking up to a dead jonbenet, panicking with PR screaming all sorts of things about what may have happened, JR helping the staging before he fully realized what had happened (maybe PR killed jonbenet in a fit of rage, would JR have helped staged if he had realized that?) and then after being locked into lying all these years with PR because of the fact that he DID help in staging that morning in the panic. Who knows! Most likely no one ever will.

I disagree with ST's theory that JR became aware of the situation later in the morning. I believe that JR became aware of the head bash much earlier than ST theorizes. I think the entire IDI was JR's idea and that he directed the staging. Certainly PR did not direct the staging IMO as she would have been an emotional wreck over her severely wounded/dying daughter. And of course BR did not direct the staging. That leaves one person.

PR would be in a total panic and would not know what to do in the situation you give. She would immediately wake up JR. She would not keep that secret from her husband. Just think about that and you will realize there would be no reason for her to do that and it would be totally against her character. She would seek help from JR.

No, JR directed the entire staging. PR did what she was told to do by JR to assist in the staging. She aided in the staging at the direction of her husband.
 

midwest mama

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To me, this doesn't explain why PR kept quiet all that time afterward. If she were angry enough to attack him, why would she abide the cover up and not blast him for what he did to her pretty baby?

I wonder..., because it could have ended up in a case that might have blown the lid off of illicit connections both of the R's had to an important group of participants in a child sex operation that was too dangerous to expose?

Patsy's purple Christmas, the My Twinn Doll, and the gift of JB's engraved Christmas bracelet leads me to think she had made plans for JB's transition of sweet innocence (Death of Innocence) into a position of future servitude in the group that Christmas. IMO, as Patsy turned 40 and suffered the results of her devastating cancer surgery and treatment, she saw her child being able to become her replacement in the public arena and in the private sexual arena that was so important to JR. But JR stepped over Patsy's boundary in wanting to be JB's "initiate" that night before they headed out for the holidays.

Patsy had entered JB into 2 pageants right after Christmas. She planned and was readying for the Disney Cruise, which was a celebration she wanted to enjoy with her children. More pacification of JB's necessary transition? Both for JB AND for Patsy?? Was Patsy spending that entire holiday season trying desperately to keep JB's innocence alive, knowing it's death was inevitable?

The physical evidence of molestation as described in the AR would be in keeping with the type of vaginal grooming that would be necessary to prepare a child for ultimate sexual contact with an adult male. JR possessed, IMO, the characteristics that could lead him to feel he was entitled to be the one to introduce his daughter to the value and importance of her future sexual role, while adding a measure of tenderness and love that he thought she would understand as acceptable.
 

KoldKase

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This has been my opinion since day one. PR caught JR moslesting JBR, & tried to hit JB with the mother of all mag lights, hit JBR by mistake, and then JB had to finish her off. OK, why did JR take JBR to Amsterdam, why did JR (the perv) have Beth's picture in his shower? Who keeps a pictire of their dead daughter in their their shower??

Now you've got me, here. Are you able to source the info on JR taking JB to Amsterdam? We have so many sources over so many years, but I don't quite remember this. I know JR went there to do business, as many sources have mentioned it. But taking JB...did he take Burke or the other kids, as well?

Thanks for any help you can give us on this.
 

sgrump

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How did John and Patsy Ramsey determine Jonbenet had been bashed in the head versus poisoned or suffocated or electrocuted or choked on a gumdrop or had a seizure or suffered some other catastrophic injury? Even the coroner had no clue there was head trauma.
 

Tawny

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How did John and Patsy Ramsey determine Jonbenet had been bashed in the head versus poisoned or suffocated or electrocuted or choked on a gumdrop or had a seizure or suffered some other catastrophic injury? Even the coroner had no clue there was head trauma.

They were told by the person who bashed her, IMO.
 

Anyhoo

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How did John and Patsy Ramsey determine Jonbenet had been bashed in the head versus poisoned or suffocated or electrocuted or choked on a gumdrop or had a seizure or suffered some other catastrophic injury? Even the coroner had no clue there was head trauma.

That is a good question, and here are some possible answers:

1. PR inflicted the head bash (so she knew about it) and then PR told JR what she had done.
2. BR inflicted the head bash and told his mother, who then told JR.
3. BR inflicted the head bash and JB's loud scream woke one or both parents, who came running to the scene and saw JB and asked what happened and BR told her/them.

Whatever the actual answer was, I think both parents were aware of the situation with JB before the strangulation took place.
 

Darlene733510

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As I was reading on another site yesterday, I came across an article that said BR received junior golf clubs for Christmas. They were in the basement with a tag seen on them, and a large purple bow. Remember that PR used purple in her decorating that year. I don't know if these golf clubs played a part in this or not.
Sometime ago I presented a scenario, which could have happened. What if the head bash was done by BR, and when he couldn't get a response from JB, he went and got his parents.
What If he told them he and JB were fooling around and she fell, and he couldn't wake her.
Even if he did the head bash, they could still think it an accident. Maybe PR went first to his aid, and seeing that the garrote wasn't working they called JR, and he ended JB's life. That could be why his robe was over the chair in the family room.
The fibers from PR' s jacket indicate that she was partly involved in using the garrote.
BR may have know a lot about knot making, as he sailed with his Father, and he was a Boy Scout. He could have done both the head bash, and the garrote, and said they were playing kitty, and later JB fell and wouldn't wake up. My former theory was that BR could have done it all and the parents believed him when he said it was an accident. There was a fireplace poker in the basement. Could that have been the head bash weapon?
One or both of the parents could have wrapped JB in the blanket, but PR would most likely to know that blanket was in the basement dryer. I believe all the lies, and obscuring the investigation were done to protect one person, their Son.
 

Hexe

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As I was reading on another site yesterday, I came across an article that said BR received junior golf clubs for Christmas. They were in the basement with a tag seen on them, and a large purple bow. Remember that PR used purple in her decorating that year. I don't know if these golf clubs played a part in this or not.
Sometime ago I presented a scenario, which could have happened. What if the head bash was done by BR, and when he couldn't get a response from JB, he went and got his parents.
What If he told them he and JB were fooling around and she fell, and he couldn't wake her.

If Ramsays believed it was an accidental hit by Burke, and if they did not know the extent of JB's injuries, they would just call the emergency. No need to stage anything if it was an accident. And the head wound was not visible. I think one of the Ramseys either hit JonBenet, or witnessed it and they knew very well it was no accident and how strong the hit was.
 

Chelly

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If Ramsays believed it was an accidental hit by Burke, and if they did not know the extent of JB's injuries, they would just call the emergency. No need to stage anything if it was an accident. And the head wound was not visible. I think one of the Ramseys either hit JonBenet, or witnessed it and they knew very well it was no accident and how strong the hit was.

The answer lies in the chronic sexual abuse of JBR which the R's needed to cover up.
 

otg

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How did John and Patsy Ramsey determine Jonbenet had been bashed in the head versus poisoned or suffocated or electrocuted or choked on a gumdrop or had a seizure or suffered some other catastrophic injury? Even the coroner had no clue there was head trauma.

They were told by the person who bashed her, IMO.

What if the Ramsey adults didn't know about the head blow? Would the person responsible volunteer that information if it wasn't obvious? Why try to account for anything other than the obvious?
 

questfortrue

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Now you've got me, here. Are you able to source the info on JR taking JB to Amsterdam? We have so many sources over so many years, but I don't quite remember this. I know JR went there to do business, as many sources have mentioned it. But taking JB...did he take Burke or the other kids, as well?

Thanks for any help you can give us on this.


Tried to find it too. I did find a past post from you, KK, on FFJ. This an exchange between PR and TH in an interview:
it sounds as though TH was pushing for where they had traveled. I thought Louisiana was a strange one to inquire about, but then maybe they had a tip from FBI about *advertiser censored* there. In this interview, PR doesn’t seem to recollect a European trip.

THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall, say
17 1996, did you travel outside of the country?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't
19 think so. I don't remember. Oh, seems like we
20 were in Mexico, we went to a beach down there.
21 Took the children. Mazatlan. And that would
22 have been in, I know it was hot down there, so I
23 don't know when it would have been. But the six
24 of us went. And the kids had never been to
25 Europe, so we wouldn't have gone there with
0322
1 them.
2 THOMAS HANEY: In the United
3 States, now, you normally went to Charlevoix and
4 up in that area, Atlanta and Colorado?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Are there, do you go
7 to California regularly --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, we went up to
9 Maine I think sometime, because John was having
10 a boat built up in Maine. We went up there from
11 the little lake, I believe. (INAUDIBLE.) I
12 don't know, just one of these trips, you know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: How about had you
14 ever, that year, last year or so, had you
15 traveled then to Louisiana or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: -- recently?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

However, from ST: “the little girl traveled widely, to new York several times, and as far away as Italy." Note PR denies taking the kids to Europe. (So jaded here, if PR says that, my mind thinks they did all go to Europe.)

And from the Bonita Papers: “JonBenet's grandmother, Nedra, admits that both she and her brother, Burke, were spoiled and were seldom disciplined. But Nedra would balance this observation, in typical grandmother fashion, by saying that the children were very well behaved and mature a fact confirmed by friends of John and Patsy who were also acquainted with the children. In spite of the material benefits available to the Ramsey children, neither appeared to be pampered. because both Burke and JonBenet were exposed to world travel and many social situations, they had achieved sophistication and social skills not normally found in children of their ages."

Just a guess here that if the comment in ST book about an Italy visit true, and JR had an AG office in Amsterdam, the whole family may have visited not just Italy, but also Amsterdam. The trip would be a business expense deduction for JR. moo
 

sgrump

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I don;t thing a head bash was obvious. There are hundreds of reasons for a child to be uncounscious and a skull fracture / brain injury when there is no visible trauma would be at the bottom of the list.

I don't for a minute believe Burke Ramsey told his parents what really happened. This was a not a well adjusted normal child, for crying out loud, he left feces in his clothes. He may have said they were 'playing' and she 'fell' but under no circumstances did he ever or will he ever admit responsibility, the whole family has a problem with that. He was never held accountable for anything he did.

[modsnip]
 

ZBob

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Tried to find it too. I did find a past post from you, KK, on FFJ. This an exchange between PR and TH in an interview:
it sounds as though TH was pushing for where they had traveled. I thought Louisiana was a strange one to inquire about, but then maybe they had a tip from FBI about *advertiser censored* there. In this interview, PR doesn’t seem to recollect a European trip.

THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall, say
17 1996, did you travel outside of the country?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't
19 think so. I don't remember. Oh, seems like we
20 were in Mexico, we went to a beach down there.
21 Took the children. Mazatlan. And that would
22 have been in, I know it was hot down there, so I
23 don't know when it would have been. But the six
24 of us went. And the kids had never been to
25 Europe, so we wouldn't have gone there with
0322
1 them.
2 THOMAS HANEY: In the United
3 States, now, you normally went to Charlevoix and
4 up in that area, Atlanta and Colorado?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Are there, do you go
7 to California regularly --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, we went up to
9 Maine I think sometime, because John was having
10 a boat built up in Maine. We went up there from
11 the little lake, I believe. (INAUDIBLE.) I
12 don't know, just one of these trips, you know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: How about had you
14 ever, that year, last year or so, had you
15 traveled then to Louisiana or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: -- recently?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

However, from ST: “the little girl traveled widely, to new York several times, and as far away as Italy." Note PR denies taking the kids to Europe. (So jaded here, if PR says that, my mind thinks they did all go to Europe.)

And from the Bonita Papers: “JonBenet's grandmother, Nedra, admits that both she and her brother, Burke, were spoiled and were seldom disciplined. But Nedra would balance this observation, in typical grandmother fashion, by saying that the children were very well behaved and mature a fact confirmed by friends of John and Patsy who were also acquainted with the children. In spite of the material benefits available to the Ramsey children, neither appeared to be pampered. because both Burke and JonBenet were exposed to world travel and many social situations, they had achieved sophistication and social skills not normally found in children of their ages."

Just a guess here that if the comment in ST book about an Italy visit true, and JR had an AG office in Amsterdam, the whole family may have visited not just Italy, but also Amsterdam. The trip would be a business expense deduction for JR. moo

ZBob - I pretty much agree with SGrump's comment as the social sophistication description of JBR and BR doesn't seem to fit with many different aspects of what is described. Maybe more with BR than JBR in an external 'presentation' manner, but from the descriptions of what goes on inside the house probably both. But grandma is the one making the comment too so she is surely wanting to reflect them positively.

Also, I find the ambiguous responses about vacations and in particular out of the country ones to be a continuation of PR's seeming inability to answer any kind of question directly. Those kind of vacations are memorable family events and should be easily recalled in my opinion.
 

questfortrue

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ZBob - I pretty much agree with SGrump's comment as the social sophistication description of JBR and BR doesn't seem to fit with many different aspects of what is described. Maybe more with BR than JBR in an external 'presentation' manner, but from the descriptions of what goes on inside the house probably both. But grandma is the one making the comment too so she is surely wanting to reflect them positively.

Also, I find the ambiguous responses about vacations and in particular out of the country ones to be a continuation of PR's seeming inability to answer any kind of question directly. Those kind of vacations are memorable family events and should be easily recalled in my opinion.

Several posters had inquired about JB visiting Amsterdam. (What comes to my mind with Amsterdam is tulips, good flood control, laws favorable to marijuana usage, and a center for distribution of *advertiser censored*.) It's not proven that JB did, as far as what I turned up. Did she travel outside the US? According to ST's book (and indicated in the Bonita Papers) JB did travel to foreign destinations.

My inclusion of the quote from grandmother was simply to point to the idea of world travel, not to endorse whether the kids were sophisticated or not. However, imo, one thing that is very evident with this family: there was one public "face" for the world, perfect family image, e.g., yet indications that within the home, all was not perfect. moo
 

eileenhawkeye

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Several posters had inquired about JB visiting Amsterdam. (What comes to my mind with Amsterdam is tulips, good flood control, laws favorable to marijuana usage, and a center for distribution of *advertiser censored*.) It's not proven that JB did, as far as what I turned up. Did she travel outside the US? According to ST's book (and indicated in the Bonita Papers) JB did travel to foreign destinations.

My inclusion of the quote from grandmother was simply to point to the idea of world travel, not to endorse whether the kids were sophisticated or not. However, imo, one thing that is very evident with this family: there was one public "face" for the world, perfect family image, e.g., yet indications that within the home, all was not perfect. moo

I have never read anything about JBR going to somewhere outside of the United States, and I've read plenty of stories about her U.S. vacations. I have never been to Amsterdam, but I am sure there are neighborhoods besides the Red Light District that are very nice, but I could see the R's not wanting to tell people about their trip there (if it's true) because of its reputation. But I would think if JBR went to another city like London or Paris, we would most definitely know about it? Thomas says in his book that JBR went to Italy, but apparently, she went to Rome, Georgia not Rome, Italy.

IKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) speculation today,
3 and people say that they've seen you in the Red
4 Light District in Amsterdam?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in the Red Light
6 District once with a group of people, and perhaps
7 even with Patsy, as a tourist. If anything would
8 make you celibate, it would be going to the Red
9 Light District in Amsterdam. It's a nasty place.
10 But we were there as tourists. We were probably
11 there for 30 minutes along with all the other
12 American tourists that were there. That's the only
13 time I was in there, yeah.

So John and Patsy did go to Amsterdam together.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
 

eileenhawkeye

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Tried to find it too. I did find a past post from you, KK, on FFJ. This an exchange between PR and TH in an interview:
it sounds as though TH was pushing for where they had traveled. I thought Louisiana was a strange one to inquire about, but then maybe they had a tip from FBI about *advertiser censored* there. In this interview, PR doesn’t seem to recollect a European trip.

THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall, say
17 1996, did you travel outside of the country?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't
19 think so. I don't remember. Oh, seems like we
20 were in Mexico, we went to a beach down there.
21 Took the children. Mazatlan. And that would
22 have been in, I know it was hot down there, so I
23 don't know when it would have been. But the six
24 of us went. And the kids had never been to
25 Europe, so we wouldn't have gone there with
0322
1 them.
2 THOMAS HANEY: In the United
3 States, now, you normally went to Charlevoix and
4 up in that area, Atlanta and Colorado?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Are there, do you go
7 to California regularly --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, we went up to
9 Maine I think sometime, because John was having
10 a boat built up in Maine. We went up there from
11 the little lake, I believe. (INAUDIBLE.) I
12 don't know, just one of these trips, you know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: How about had you
14 ever, that year, last year or so, had you
15 traveled then to Louisiana or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: -- recently?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

However, from ST: “the little girl traveled widely, to new York several times, and as far away as Italy." Note PR denies taking the kids to Europe. (So jaded here, if PR says that, my mind thinks they did all go to Europe.)

And from the Bonita Papers: “JonBenet's grandmother, Nedra, admits that both she and her brother, Burke, were spoiled and were seldom disciplined. But Nedra would balance this observation, in typical grandmother fashion, by saying that the children were very well behaved and mature a fact confirmed by friends of John and Patsy who were also acquainted with the children. In spite of the material benefits available to the Ramsey children, neither appeared to be pampered. because both Burke and JonBenet were exposed to world travel and many social situations, they had achieved sophistication and social skills not normally found in children of their ages."

Just a guess here that if the comment in ST book about an Italy visit true, and JR had an AG office in Amsterdam, the whole family may have visited not just Italy, but also Amsterdam. The trip would be a business expense deduction for JR. moo

They asked about Louisiana because of a letter received during the Miss America pageant 1997 in Shreveport, LA:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-shreveport-letter.htm
 
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