A Thought

[Linda7NJ]

could be, because how could 2 college educated adults not know the definition? and they didn't lead sheltered lives at all. Maybe BR looked it up? That sounds a little more age appropriate for him, but IDK. Maybe he heard the word being screamed in a fight so he looked it up, or maybe PR left the book open to point to motive. As in "incest...this is what caused this all". At times, JR and PR seemed ready to turn on each other -like him identifying her paper. Please, who does that?

Someone that hasn't pieced it all together yet?
There are a few things that lead me to believe John didn't know till later that morning.

Number one being Patsy's statement about TWO people knowing what happened. The one that did it and the person that he confided in... Which was followed by a noticeable head whip from John!

His statements that morning about it being an inside job.

Comments made to the pastor as he carried JonBenet up the stairs and past him.

The timing of the 911 call. I think Patsy tried to dissuade the making of the call. Probably by claiming "they would kill her" He insisted. I don't think she had worked out yet what was should be done with JonBenet's body. She hadn't told John yet. Maybe she told him that morning sometime before the second search.


Where exactly did that tidbit come from anyway? Was it in Steve or Kolars book? I can't remember the source for it. ( the dictionary incest thing)


I really believe John knew about Burke and the sexual abuse and he down played it. Patsy was angry at John when she wrote that note. IMO he knew nothing of her writing it...



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[CircuitGuy]

PR was all about hidden clues, acronyms, e.g. PR operated in many ways like an enabling spouse, protecting her husband, yet maybe not knowing whether she might be sold down the river here, and maybe/likely not fully in support of him over this situation.

Now, it doesn't probably seem like "insurance," but PR wouldn't want to turn directly on JR, it seems to me, but rather have the BPD investigate him without her directly saying something to the police.

As I think about it, I have to wonder if JR wasn't contemplating something similar when JR (with great helpfulness) handed over PR's tablet to police, the one from which the RN was written. I don't think the two were at that stage totally in collusion. That happened later. All moo.

The notion that PR folded the page makes more sense than BR. Someone just looking up a word doesn't need to fold the page. It makes much more sense for BR to look up the word. The folded page is such a tenuous clue. It would take someone really into little clues and plots to think that mattered. I don't know how a murder investigation typically goes, but it would never occur to me that the police would comb through my reference book and take note of a folded page.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Number one being Patsy's statement about TWO people knowing what happened. The one that did it and the person that he confided in... Which was followed by a noticeable head whip from John!

Are you saying PR mentioned that two people know what happened, and that caught JR's attention b/c to know that for a fact meant she was either the killer or the confidant?

His statements that morning about it being an inside job.

Are you saying he wanted to blame PR? I thought that comment meant close friends or employees. If it extended to immediate family members his comment would point to himself as a suspect to.

Comments made to the pastor as he carried JonBenet up the stairs and past him.

What did he say? I read Kolar's book, but I feel like I don't know half the facts everyone else knows.

The timing of the 911 call. I think Patsy tried to dissuade the making of the call. Probably by claiming "they would kill her" He insisted. I don't think she had worked out yet what was should be done with JonBenet's body. She hadn't told John yet. Maybe she told him that morning sometime before the second search.

Just like most scenarios I've heard, this requires hugely poor planning on the part of the killers and amazing luck saving them. If a PR DI, called the police has JR's urging, and then told him privately with police present that she did it, that's just amazing.

I'm not criticizing your scenario. It's just almost every scenario I've heard requires the murderers to be inept but aided my one lucky break after another.

 

[questfortrue]

The notion that PR folded the page makes more sense than BR. Someone just looking up a word doesn't need to fold the page. It makes much more sense for BR to look up the word. The folded page is such a tenuous clue. It would take someone really into little clues and plots to think that mattered. I don't know how a murder investigation typically goes, but it would never occur to me that the police would comb through my reference book and take note of a folded page.

Police took many photos. The photo of the dictionary was uncovered when they reviewed them all. From ST book.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Are you saying PR mentioned that two people know what happened, and that caught JR's attention b/c to know that for a fact meant she was either the killer or the confidant?


Are you saying he wanted to blame PR? I thought that comment meant close friends or employees. If it extended to immediate family members his comment would point to himself as a suspect to.


What did he say? I read Kolar's book, but I feel like I don't know half the facts everyone else knows.


Just like most scenarios I've heard, this requires hugely poor planning on the part of the killers and amazing luck saving them. If a PR DI, called the police has JR's urging, and then told him privately with police present that she did it, that's just amazing.

I'm not criticizing your scenario. It's just almost every scenario I've heard requires the murderers to be inept but aided my one lucky break after another.

I do believe the murderer was inept, the staging ridiculous and a series of mistakes, blunders, luck and their status saved them. IMO

This crime wasn't committed by some genius mastermind. IMO


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[ahoyhoy]

These are "if" scenarios, but If PR had perpetrated the head strike, and If JR the molestation, and JR decided to lead police to her, she left a clue for the police. PR was all about hidden clues, acronyms, e.g. PR operated in many ways like an enabling spouse, protecting her husband, yet maybe not knowing whether she might be sold down the river here, and maybe/likely not fully in support of him over this situation.

Now, it doesn't probably seem like "insurance," but PR wouldn't want to turn directly on JR, it seems to me, but rather have the BPD investigate him without her directly saying something to the police.

As I think about it, I have to wonder if JR wasn't contemplating something similar when JR (with great helpfulness) handed over PR's tablet to police, the one from which the RN was written. I don't think the two were at that stage totally in collusion. That happened later. All moo.

(BBM)

This is precisely the reason why I think Patsy was calling the Dr./taking JB to the doctor so often. She wanted the perp caught, but didn't have the courage to spell out what she wanted that doctor to notice. Patsy was probably a prime case of 'learned helplessness' especially if she had been molested as a child herself.
I've always thought also that the intense cleaning of JB was related to Patsy washing the sin off her, a deranged routine of making her daughter's molestation 'disappear'.

But ITA w/ whomever mentioned the 'incest' dictionary page being a form of insurance. It could easily have been Patsy with an un-subtle condemnation of JR, or wanting JR to see the word, feel guilty--if it was John OR BR doing the molesting and Patsy felt helpless again. That page could have been like that for some time, casually left where JR could find it, passive-aggressively. Kind of how Patsy kept putting JB in the doctor's face, hoping he would find that. I do not think that Patsy was the primary molester of JB, b/c I do NOT think molesters make so many attempts to have a doctor examine the very area they're abusing (genitals/urinary system).
(All moo, thanks.)

 

[wengr]

Concerning the folded dictionary page. Imo, it makes sense to consider that it was done by someone from outside the family. There were others in the house that morning. They certainly could have had access to that book. BPD should have fingerprinted that folded page corner. I don't know if that was attempted or not.
It would not be surprising to me to find that it was someone trying to leave a message without incurring the wrath of the R's.

 

[Soulmagent]

I think it was a Erotic strangulation game gone wrong. The garrote was placed later for staging. The head bash was to finish her off when she didn't die by suffocation.

If the goal was to kill her ,how did the game go wrong?

I think the death was a side effect ,not the intended outcome.

I also think the knot might be somehow connected to the rock climbing classes . The item itself might have been a teaching tool or a practice run with new skill set .

 

[wengr]

I do believe the murderer was inept, the staging ridiculous and a series of mistakes, blunders, luck and their status saved them. IMO

This crime wasn't committed by some genius mastermind. IMO


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Yes, exactly. The problem with so many theories is that they presume that all decisions were made by - and actions carried out by intelligent adults.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Yes, exactly. The problem with so many theories is that they presume that all decisions were made by - and actions carried out by intelligent adults.

ITA, with you & Linda7NJ. I think the RN was written by the wrong Ramsey (John could have written a more believable one, imo), and the staging also--WRONG Ramsey (A mother wouldn't have put her in those ridiculously huge panties).

To be clear, I think P did the note, while J did much of the staging. I think Patsy would have been too much of an emotional mess to handle her daughter's dead body so intimately, and the man took over. Like when you find a dead mouse under a rug, I think most women let their spouses/male partners take care of the nasty jobs in the house. I'm not old-fashioned, and even I make my bf take care of those things.

jmo

Sorry---I'm ETA----IF Patsy did the note and ALL the staging (huge panties that still said 'Wednesday'), it would seem her train of thought was HOPING JR would be fooled along w/ police. Like if Burke OR Patsy started the deadly sequence of events, the panties may have been a 'good enough to fool John' afterthought.

Also, I have to ask---has anyone speculated that Patsy could have USED Jr's Israeli-wool sweater to wipe the blood from JB? Was that sweater found and carefully tested to see if it could have been used that way, anyone know? Because those fibers are what have me convinced JR was there for the cleanup, but if he wasn't, and his sweater was used to wipe her....another form of 'insurance' against JR? Or another 'lucky break' that confused that night all the more for investigators?

 

[otg]

Possibility. I could swear that in a photo of the basement, a set of golf clubs are shown.

There were many golf clubs in the basement, and even a single putter found outside the hellhole in some bushes. There were loose clubs in a basement closet (shown in the CSI video released by Kolar) and three separate golf club bags (including the one JR requested his sister-in-law to get in her "evidence roundup" so he could play golf in the dead of winter rather than have to talk to the people investigating his daughter's death). There are pictures available of all these except the putter found outside.

 

[Linda7NJ]

ITA, with you & Linda7NJ. I think the RN was written by the wrong Ramsey (John could have written a more believable one, imo), and the staging also--WRONG Ramsey (A mother wouldn't have put her in those ridiculously huge panties).

To be clear, I think P did the note, while J did much of the staging. I think Patsy would have been too much of an emotional mess to handle her daughter's dead body so intimately, and the man took over. Like when you find a dead mouse under a rug, I think most women let their spouses/male partners take care of the nasty jobs in the house. I'm not old-fashioned, and even I make my bf take care of those things.

jmo

Sorry---I'm ETA----IF Patsy did the note and ALL the staging (huge panties that still said 'Wednesday'), it would seem her train of thought was HOPING JR would be fooled along w/ police. Like if Burke OR Patsy started the deadly sequence of events, the panties may have been a 'good enough to fool John' afterthought.

Also, I have to ask---has anyone speculated that Patsy could have USED Jr's Israeli-wool sweater to wipe the blood from JB? Was that sweater found and carefully tested to see if it could have been used that way, anyone know? Because those fibers are what have me convinced JR was there for the cleanup, but if he wasn't, and his sweater was used to wipe her....another form of 'insurance' against JR? Or another 'lucky break' that confused that night all the more for investigators?

I think her mother did put those panties on her. She knew where they were, and she knew JonBenet really liked them and wanted them for herself. IMO

I also believe Patsy retrieved the blanket from the dryer and covered her.

I believe Patsy loosely tied those wrist restraints that served no other purpose than to stage the scene.


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[ahoyhoy]

I think her mother did put those panties on her. She knew where they were, and she knew JonBenet really liked them and wanted them for herself. IMO

I also believe Patsy retrieved the blanket from the dryer and covered her.

I believe Patsy loosely tied those wrist restraints that served no other purpose than to stage the scene.


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I can completely see this scenario, Patsy protecting Burke OR herself, staging everything, hoping to fool John at least for a time. But what about the fibers in JB's crotch area? Seem to put John there.

IF JR was clueless when he awoke, it's pretty clear he figured it out that morning, before the cops did. IF JR was not involved with the death or staging, Patsy would have to feel a lot of guilt for what happened, if she was also attempting to fool JR. Patsy could feel that guilty if her son had done it, OR if she did. imo

I think no matter what, a HUGE fear for Patsy was a loss of her lifestyle---the breadwinner. She was a cancer survivor, her looks had faded; who was going to keep PR & the Paughs so comfortable if John is caught or besmirched by incest in the family? People have covered worse crimes for even less selfish reasons.

The layers to this. It's difficult to sort it all.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I can completely see this scenario, Patsy protecting Burke OR herself, staging everything, hoping to fool John at least for a time. But what about the fibers in JB's crotch area? Seem to put John there.

IF JR was clueless when he awoke, it's pretty clear he figured it out that morning, before the cops did. IF JR was not involved with the death or staging, Patsy would have to feel a lot of guilt for what happened, if she was also attempting to fool JR. Patsy could feel that guilty if her son had done it, OR if she did. imo

I think no matter what, a HUGE fear for Patsy was a loss of her lifestyle---the breadwinner. She was a cancer survivor, her looks had faded; who was going to keep PR & the Paughs so comfortable if John is caught or besmirched by incest in the family? People have covered worse crimes for even less selfish reasons.

The layers to this. It's difficult to sort it all.

Perhaps the fibers were secondary transfer?


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[dodie20]

Are you saying PR mentioned that two people know what happened, and that caught JR's attention b/c to know that for a fact meant she was either the killer or the confidant?


Are you saying he wanted to blame PR? I thought that comment meant close friends or employees. If it extended to immediate family members his comment would point to himself as a suspect to.


What did he say? I read Kolar's book, but I feel like I don't know half the facts everyone else knows.


Just like most scenarios I've heard, this requires hugely poor planning on the part of the killers and amazing luck saving them. If a PR DI, called the police has JR's urging, and then told him privately with police present that she did it, that's just amazing.

I'm not criticizing your scenario. It's just almost every scenario I've heard requires the murderers to be inept but aided my one lucky break after another.

If one person committed the murder without the knowledge of the other one, then what looks like poor planning could really just be the uninvolved one running interference and upsetting the killer's original plans. For instance, the 911...if the uninvolved one was determined the cops be called, the killer would have a hard time sticking to his/her original script. The next best thing would be calling 911 him/herself, and controlling what was reported. I've thought a lot about this theory because for the most part, JR was given a pass, but since reading about the grand jury indictment, I'm starting to see him as more involved. The GJ saw him as an equal participant right along with PR. Also, he hasn't done anything different since PR's death to clear up any suspicions. As a matter of fact, 2 years after her death, he was still throwing 'suspicion' at FW. Surely, if it was all PR, he would have stopped this particular charade? I guess what I'm getting at, is IMO, he doesn't act like an innocent bystander who was blindsided by his killer wife. Supposedly, he has lost most of his wealth, (except for the profits from writing books on JonBenet), and the odds of him ever going to prison are practically zilch, so why is he still lawyered up? He has lived his life in a cocoon, surrounded by lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, and lawyers jumping on every little thing. If this had been all PR, there would be no need for this anymore. Observing him in the years since PR's death has been interesting, because he acts exactly the same-even still throwing suspicion at FW. IDK what happened that night and the next day as far as anybody sticking to a script, but since then, JR has stuck like glue to his script. all moo

 

[LinasK]

If the goal was to kill her ,how did the game go wrong?

I think the death was a side effect ,not the intended outcome.

I also think the knot might be somehow connected to the rock climbing classes . The item itself might have been a teaching tool or a practice run with new skill set .

I never thought he intended to kill her initially. In these EA games, apparently the goal is to get high from passing out. Perhaps John accidentally strangled her in the process and she didn't revive. Patsy even told someone, "we didn't intend for this to happen".

 

[ahoyhoy]

Perhaps the fibers were secondary transfer?


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I always thought the point about those JR wool fibers was that there were far too many for them to be a secondary transfer? And that it was a dry-clean only item, whose fibers wouldn't have been washed with anything else in the Ramsey laundry? I could be wrong though.

 

[DeeDee249]

Possibility. I could swear that in a photo of the basement, a set of golf clubs are shown.

There were actually TWO sets of golf clubs in that photo. It shows the wine cellar door, with a set of golf clubs clearly visible in front and another set, not completely visible, along the wall where the Christmas decoration is hung on the wall.

 

[DeeDee249]

I always thought the point about those JR wool fibers was that there were far too many for them to be a secondary transfer? And that it was a dry-clean only item, whose fibers wouldn't have been washed with anything else in the Ramsey laundry? I could be wrong though.

Very true. And the panties were BRAND NEW- fresh from the package and it was noted by the coroner that they had not been laundered. The shirt was wool and it was unlikely it would have been washed. And even if it had- no one would wash a garment like that with underwear.

 

[dodie20]

I can completely see this scenario, Patsy protecting Burke OR herself, staging everything, hoping to fool John at least for a time. But what about the fibers in JB's crotch area? Seem to put John there.

IF JR was clueless when he awoke, it's pretty clear he figured it out that morning, before the cops did. IF JR was not involved with the death or staging, Patsy would have to feel a lot of guilt for what happened, if she was also attempting to fool JR. Patsy could feel that guilty if her son had done it, OR if she did. imo

I think no matter what, a HUGE fear for Patsy was a loss of her lifestyle---the breadwinner. She was a cancer survivor, her looks had faded; who was going to keep PR & the Paughs so comfortable if John is caught or besmirched by incest in the family? People have covered worse crimes for even less selfish reasons.

The layers to this. It's difficult to sort it all.

You brought up an interesting point...the role JR played in PR and her family's finances. Didn't her father work for JR? and even had a corporate apartment in Boulder? If JR went down, what would they all do for money? Maybe PR's loyalty to her family played a part in certain motivations. Which makes me think of the $118,000 bonus. According to JR and PR both, she wasn't told about the bonus. So, considering that PR's father worked with JR, JR not telling her has other implications. Did her father know about the bonus? Should he have gotten a cut? If he didn't, did he feel double crossed? And the reason I'm wondering is because of the ransom note...1st of all, it's my strong opinion that PR wrote it, so going with that, the money, specifically the bonus amount was very important and front and center in her thoughts. And there was so much anger towards JR. And she wrote, "you stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us...you are not the only fat cat around...Don't underestimate us John". In these particular lines, she sounds like she's talking about herself and some other specific person. BTW, I know it could go either way, but I tend to believe the Rs on PR not being told about the bonus. IMO, that sounds exactly like something JR would do. But whereas PR acted like she didn't really care that he hadn't told her, it's moo that when she found out, it could have caused an enormous sense of betrayal and anger. And then if we consider the betrayal and anger mixed in with loyalty to her own family, it's moo that the bonus could have been a huge problem. I know they were very wealthy, but based on the wealthy people I know, they never have as much money as they portray, and they never have access to as much as we'd think. In other words, they're not walking around with a gold card going on spending sprees. Even now, but even more so in 1996, $118,000 is/was a lot of money. moo