Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

[sunshineray]

I believe he was (maybe still is) a conservation officer if I am not mistaken, so assume his work might take him to the Delphi area. But that is only an assumption on my part. also public records w IN DNR show him being given an award for something in 2007 and he was then stationed in district 3 which would include the Delphi area I believe.

The statement RA gave to DD in 2017 very early on in the case took place in a parking lot outside a local grocery, I am only assuming that took place in Delphi. I don't even think he was working the girls' case per se. He may have been pressed into assisting with LE in looking for witnesses in those early days but don't think he was actually part of the investigation.

from an article in 2022
Baldwin and Rozzi write that Allen gave a voluntary statement in February of 2017 to, “a Conservation Officer outside of the local grocery store,” detailing his presence on the Monon High Bridge the day Libby German and Abby Williams were murdered, that Allen was never contacted again by police . . .
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/defense-and-law-enforcement-spar-over-delphi-murders-investigation/

I think DD thought it was a big nothing, wrote up some notes, turned them over to the actual investigators and went on his merry way, never giving it another thought.

all of the above is JMO

IIRC, the CVS is right there by the grocery too?

 

[TTF14]

I haven’t read the Franks in awhile as my
Eyes bleed from the twisting of facts have the Defence denied he Saw the juvenile girls?

IMHO

RSBM

Here ya go: Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

 

[sunshineray]

RSBM

Here ya go: Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

Do they deny RA saw the girls? I don't recalled that being stated by RA's defense, ever.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, EF told Ferency and Murphy that he (E) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with E’s mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier.

<modsnip>

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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[WildHuncher]

I think it’s a bigger leap to assume that all of the differing descriptions were of the same man. IMO MOO

ETA: That’s just how I would feel and think as a juror.

I don’t think you can count the differences of opinion among a group of girls who are by all accounts looking at one man as evidence that two or more men were present. Three or four girls agree on place, time, and number of men (one) for a single encounter. Details of the encounter and his clothing do NOT match from one girl to the next, which points up why eyewitness testimony isn’t the gold standard of evidence in the first place. But that’s what you’re basing your “reasonable doubt” upon.

Nobody saw two men in the critical there and then. Even RA didn’t see his posited doppelgänger, an understandable omission if he didn’t yet know he’d been filmed when he talked to DD. You only need one man to account for all the sightings if that one man is RA.

 

[grannygates]

I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, EF told Ferency and Murphy that he (E) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with E’s mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier. <modsnip>

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It would be unusual if someone was capable of recalling exactly where they were on a specific day over a year and a half beforehand on a day that held no significance to your life, where nothing happened and you were just chilling at your house. I get the snark because why would anyone ever believe that. MOO

The people who were present on the trails and think they saw the murderer would recall that they were on the trails and think they possibly saw the murderer. Its remembering the small descriptive details that is challenging and that’s why it’s so strange to form an entire murder timeline over contradictory witnesses statements.

IMO The eyewitnesses statements not matching wouldn’t be such a big deal if they weren’t being used to form the entire case.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

It would be unusual if someone was capable of recalling exactly where they were on a specific day over a year and a half beforehand on a day that held no significance to your life, where nothing happened and you were just chilling at your house. I get the snark because why would anyone ever believe that. MOO

The people who were present on the trails and think they saw the murderer would recall that they were on the trails and think they possibly saw the murderer. Its remembering the small descriptive details that is challenging and that’s why it’s so strange to form an entire murder timeline over contradictory witnesses statements.

IMO The eyewitnesses statements not matching wouldn’t be such a big deal if they weren’t being used to form the entire case.

MOO

Well it’s a good thing it doesn’t.

 

[grannygates]

Well it’s a good thing it doesn’t.

What doesn’t ? Sorry, I don’t know which part of my comment you’re referring to.

 

[flashy09]

Yeah I am really not sure how the sketches went from older man to younger guy with puffy hair??? If BG was NOT described as wearing the hat in the old Bg sketch then why did it appear in the sketch? If he WAS described in such a hat, why is it missing from the second sketch? Do jurors just have to assume he removed it or added this in between sightings?

Have we seen a picture of him in 2017? His hairline is impressive for a 50 something yr old right now. I think 7 yrs ago he absolutely could have had plenty of hair. Remember the statement about "may appear younger than his true age?" From afar, his 5'4 or 5'5 height and a full head of hair (if seen during a time that he had removed his hat) could give the impression of a much younger man, like the second sketch.

 

[photographer4]

No, it won’t be because RA also admits he saw them because the timeline matches up and there is enough over-lapping similarities. He also places him on the bridge and people naturally realise that, in a split moment, you are not going to remember every single detail about somebody.

It's not like the girls realised they were witnessing the man on his way to commit a horrific crime that would shock the world.

I haven’t read the Franks in awhile as my
Eyes bleed from the twisting of facts have the Defence denied he Saw the juvenile girls?

IMHO

Just trying to untwist my brain as there is a lot to keep track of! RA saw 3 minors right? But there were 4 in the group who took the photo of the bench? For some reason, only 3 gave statements to police so perhaps one was too young? Did RA see that 4th kid? Or did he only see three kids?

If those kids saw BG - where were they quite when they noticed him? Like in terms of distance, where were they? Was he walking up to the bridge or? Which document is this described in? Maybe I need to go re-read it all.

 

[photographer4]

IIRC, the CVS is right there by the grocery too?

But what we’re NOT told is why did DD meet with RA to get the statement in the first place? Why did police not seem interested in talking to a guy who WAS AT THE DAMN BRIDGE at the right time?? Who decided this was smart? Let’s just completely minimize some guy who says he was at the bridge and never talk to him ourselves????

So how did this happen? Who decided that DD should meet with RA? Like did he just randomly go there to canvas employees of the plaza at work? Did he happen across RA - just by asking, “hey was anyone at the bridge? Did anyone see / hear anything?” And then RA was like “well, yeah, I was there” so now they go out to chat????

OR did RA call LE and they sent DD to meet him?? If RA is guilty, this is egregious - this could have been solved so much sooner and given the family some peace so may years ago!!

 

[photographer4]

I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, EF told Ferency and Murphy that he (EF) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with E's mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier. <modsnip>

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

pdfhost.io

It is odd that EF did remember where he was on that specific day. I wonder what his recall is for other days that week?

 

[Vern]

...

He could have easily known about the 2 girls going missing from the Bridge park on the night of the 13th. There were very likely many announcements and news reports about it and asking for help the next morning to search. Their names and pictures would have been on the local news. IMO

...

IMO, sure he heard about it.

We were discussing the girls here (and I was in Atlantic Canada) the morning of the 14th of February before they had even been found. I followed the link here to watch the helicopter covering the search live from the air. It was on the scanners, the radios etc.

Link to the very first post on Abby and Libby here on the site:

IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #1

MISSING: Two 13-year-old girls dropped off to go walking at Carroll County trail Carroll County Sheriff Toby Leazenby said Abigail Williams and Liberty German were last seen around 1 p.m. when they were dropped off to go hiking at High Bridge, just east of Delphi. MISSING: Two 13-year-old...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Vern]

Do you ever wonder why DD did not enter RA's cell number into the written interview he took?
Had he done that, RA could have been easily tracked.
MOO

I often wonder why RA chose to approach a random CO about a major crime that had occured to give his statement instead of contacting the investigating LE after the girls were found murdered despite their publication of numbers to reach them and where they were located right in his small hometown etc.

Hiding in plain sight.

 

[photographer4]

I don’t think you can count the differences of opinion among a group of girls who are by all accounts looking at one man as evidence that two or more men were present. Three or four girls agree on place, time, and number of men (one) for a single encounter. Details of the encounter and his clothing do NOT match from one girl to the next, which points up why eyewitness testimony isn’t the gold standard of evidence in the first place. But that’s what you’re basing your “reasonable doubt” upon.

Nobody saw two men in the critical there and then. Even RA didn’t see his posited doppelgänger, an understandable omission if he didn’t yet know he’d been filmed when he talked to DD. You only need one man to account for all the sightings if that one man is RA.

Q: can a juror not base reasonable doubt on whatever stands out to them as well, reasonably doubtful?

So if the witnesses have described BG differently, which they have (some say puffy hair, some say not), some say blue jacket, one says tan and so on and so forth…. (Franks motions)…. Then can they not just say not guilty based on this and this alone? I imagine they’ll have a lot of discussions about the merits of this or that testimony/ evidence. Given how we bicker amongst ourselves here about these very same topics, I could easily see a jury ending up hung or coming back not guilty. At this point, imo, there just is something missing that would make me get off the fence to the guilty side.

I wonder if what is missing is something the State hasn’t revealed yet? Something from the search warrant? If they don’t have a lot more, I wonder if what they do have is enough to get the conviction. I don’t know how to do a formal poll here, so I’m wondering, if we can reasonably do this:

Cast your votes: based only what is known so far -
GUILTY
NOT GUILTY
?

ME: NOT GUILTY BARD. Yet.

 

[Vern]

Thank you so much Spartygirl, you are most kind!

I am trying to be hopeful for a timely and just resolution that will bring some kind of closure to the families and friends, but exactly, the Karen R trial does worry me.

Karen Read is a different trial, not RAs. I don't understand why it keeps getting brought up in here.

Different players all together, different jurisdictions and, IIRC, some actual evidence poitning to nefarious LE actions etc.

I've yet to see anything of the sort here in this case. Rather in this case, everyone and everybody is apparently conspiring ... without a shred of evidence to back up these grand isinuations and allegations.

Yet, we have seen the receipts on the Defence's part to manipulate of obfusgate the actual evidence and events of Feb 13th.

 

[steeltowngirl]

What doesn’t ? Sorry, I don’t know which part of my comment you’re referring to.

The OP was replying to this part. And I agree, the case against RA does not rely on the witnesses.

IMO The eyewitnesses statements not matching wouldn’t be such a big deal if they weren’t being used to form the entire case.

Well it’s a good thing it doesn’t.

jmo

 

[ClearAhead]

It is odd that EF did remember where he was on that specific day. I wonder what his recall is for other days that week?

I would think he’d have good reason to remember what he did on that particular day because it was the same day his sister claimed he confessed to her that he was in Delphi at the murder of Libby and Abby, the spit and horns et al.

 

[ClearAhead]

Karen Read is a different trial, not RAs. I don't understand why it keeps getting brought up in here.

Different players all together, different jurisdictions and, IIRC, some actual evidence poitning to nefarious LE actions etc.

I've yet to see anything of the sort here in this case. Rather in this case, everyone and everybody is apparently conspiring ... without a shred of evidence to back up these grand isinuations and allegations.

Yet, we have seen the receipts on the Defence's part to manipulate of obfusgate the actual evidence and events of Feb 13th.

I agree, there no good basis for comparison and the only reason it’s keeps getting mentioned is wishful thinking for a hung jury. JMO

 

[Salah11]

What doesn’t ? Sorry, I don’t know which part of my comment you’re referring to.

The part I clearly bolded