Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[sunshineray]

Richard Allen stated he saw these vehicles at the Mears trailhead parking lot while he was walking to the Monon High Bridge. If Richard Allen is lying, he came up with some great lies to make it seem like other people could be in the area of the Monon High Bridge around the same time as himself and Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

I agree. Richard Allen arrived before KG and BB so where did these cars that he saw at the Mears trailhead parking lot come from?

AW's Sept 2020 interview at around 27:45 she talks about LE telling her there were 50+ people in the trail areas that day.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes - I agree. That is why they will try and prove this case from 3 sides.

1. The witnesses will say, IMO, that the man they saw is the bridge guy in the video. So IMO the key to the entire case is whether the man the 3 juveniles saw was RA. Based on the PCA, I suspect RA has really hurt himself quite badly by admitted he saw a group of girls. His innocence requires not only 2 Bridge Guys, but a second groups of girls never identified.

2. The confessions (enough said) and 3. Ballistics/forensics - these help with point 1.

What is revealing IMO, is the defence's lack of interest in certain 3rd party suspects. They don't look like Bridge Guy. So the defence understands this dynamic. Realistically the man the juvenile girls saw is bridge guy - so the defence needs Bridge Guy II.

Of now of course they want to shift the focus to where the girls go from the Bridge, but IMO the whole case is decided on what happens before the Bridge. What happens from Bridge Guy on, is not in doubt IMO.

I think it's possible there may be a 4th side, DNA. Something retrieved by LE was sent to Quantico in early December 2018 for "DNA testing research".

Break In Indiana Teens' Murder: Cops Give More Evidence To FBI In Hunt For Killer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told RadarOnline.com exclusively that they were hoping for a break in the case of Indiana teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German’s gruesome murders after they sent new evidence to the FBI headquarters in Quantico.

radaronline.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think it's possible there may be a 4th side, DNA. Something retrieved by LE was sent to Quantico in early December 2018 for "DNA testing research".

Break In Indiana Teens' Murder: Cops Give More Evidence To FBI In Hunt For Killer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told RadarOnline.com exclusively that they were hoping for a break in the case of Indiana teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German’s gruesome murders after they sent new evidence to the FBI headquarters in Quantico.

radaronline.com

Yes I believe the State has some irrefutable evidence like DNA against RA in addition to all the other evidence that points to him including his own confessions.

moo

 

[FrostedGlass]

The return (exhibit 2) is from 13 October 2022 - the date of the search. You can see the signed/dated certification at p13 from Liggett.

Yes, I'm aware of that; it's the same day as the RA interview.

However, it was not filed until May 1 of the following year. That's what led me to think they were waiting for the rest of the lab exams to come back. I don't know... maybe it just got misplaced/forgotten/misfiled for over 6 months?

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I'm aware of that; it's the same day as the RA interview.

However, it was not filed until May 1 of the following year. That's what led me to think they were waiting for the rest of the lab exams to come back. I don't know... maybe it just got misplaced/forgotten/misfiled for over 6 months?

I don't know what the "filed" refers to - but my understanding is you do the search warrant return immediately, so that is why it is certified same day.

IMO Liggett is certifying that document on that day - otherwise the certification would make no sense if you later changed it.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't know what the "filed" refers to - but my understanding is you do the search warrant return immediately, so that is why it is certified same day.

IMO Liggett is certifying that document on that day - otherwise the certification would make no sense if you later changed it.

The "file" date is the day a document is entered into the court records = CCS You will see it in the upper right hand corner of almost every document we've seen.

You will see it also here: the date on the left is when it appears in Mycase (case summary)

11/23/2022

Appearance Filed Attorney: McLeland, Nicholas Charles For Party: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/23

 

[steeltowngirl]

The attorneys also argued that nothing relevant to the case was taken from Allen’s home.

“The affidavit failed to connect generic items to actual items that were possibly used in the crime,” the attorneys concluded.

Just curious as to what you make of this statement from the defense team? Are they claiming nothing connects Allen to the crime that was found in his home?

If this were true then why were they trying to get the PCA thrown out?

We know the search warrant recovered a gun that matched an unspent round found at the crime scene. Since the girls were killed with a blade, defense is possibly using that as the reason the SW should have been invalidated.

Of course, defense’s claim falls flat. The gun IS evidence. The girls were ordered down the hill by BG/RA to their murders. We don’t yet know what else they have - could be digital evidence on recovered electronics or biological matter. Defense doesn’t want any of that evidence admitted, so they challenged the search warrant.

Prosecution will demonstrate that RA is the man on the bridge with the gun. Coupled with RA’s confessions, that should be enough to convict RA of felony murder.

jmo

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/attorneys-challenge-method-linking-richard-allen-to-unspent-round-at-crime-scene/

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, I'm aware of that; it's the same day as the RA interview.

However, it was not filed until May 1 of the following year. That's what led me to think they were waiting for the rest of the lab exams to come back. I don't know... maybe it just got misplaced/forgotten/misfiled for over 6 months?

Or maybe because it was an ongoing investigation, especially since RA was talking/confessing things to anyone he could, so not misplaced/forgotten/misfiled just not released for public consumption?

 

[Trebor5591]

We know the search warrant recovered a gun that matched an unspent round found at the crime scene. Since the girls were killed with a blade, defense is possibly using that as the reason the SW should have been invalidated.

Of course, defense’s claim falls flat. The gun IS evidence. The girls were ordered down the hill by BG/RA to their murders. We don’t yet know what else they have - could be digital evidence on recovered electronics or biological matter. Defense doesn’t want any of that evidence admitted, so they challenged the search warrant.

Prosecution will demonstrate that RA is the man on the bridge with the gun. Coupled with RA’s confessions, that should be enough to convict RA of felony murder.

jmo

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/attorneys-challenge-method-linking-richard-allen-to-unspent-round-at-crime-scene/

Not just felony murder. The fact that he marched Abby and Libby at gunpoint "down the hill" to their cruel deaths should be enough for the jury to find RA guilty of First Degree Murder, IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

We know the search warrant recovered a gun that matched an unspent round found at the crime scene. Since the girls were killed with a blade, defense is possibly using that as the reason the SW should have been invalidated.

Of course, defense’s claim falls flat. The gun IS evidence. The girls were ordered down the hill by BG/RA to their murders. We don’t yet know what else they have - could be digital evidence on recovered electronics or biological matter. Defense doesn’t want any of that evidence admitted, so they challenged the search warrant.

Prosecution will demonstrate that RA is the man on the bridge with the gun. Coupled with RA’s confessions, that should be enough to convict RA of felony murder.

jmo

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/attorneys-challenge-method-linking-richard-allen-to-unspent-round-at-crime-scene/

Yes and we also know that even in the PCA, on page 2, it says, "and Victim2, one of the victims mentions "gun". The gun IS evidence.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

 

[sunshineray]

Not just felony murder. The fact that he marched Abby and Libby at gunpoint "down the hill" to their cruel deaths should be enough for the jury to find RA guilty of First Degree Murder, IMO.

I wonder if the prosecution is thinking about the DP? Until when did they have to add that?

 

[tlcya]

Yes and we also know that even in the PCA, on page 2, it says, "and Victim2, one of the victims mentions "gun". The gun IS evidence.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

rereading this old article jogged my memory, the story says only 7 of the 8 page PC doc were made public. Have we ever gotten a look at page 8 or is it still under some sort of seal?

 

[sunshineray]

rereading this old article jogged my memory, the story says only 7 of the 8 page PC doc were made public. Have we ever gotten a look at page 8 or is it still under some sort of seal?

Good question

 

[ClearAhead]

I wonder if the prosecution is thinking about the DP? Until when did they have to add that?

It’d be good timing IMO

Indiana seeks first execution since 2009 after acquiring lethal injection drug, governor says

Indiana Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb says the state plans to resume executions for the first time in over a decade after acquiring a drug used for lethal injection.

apnews.com

“INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Indiana Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb said the state will resume executions for the first time in over a decade after acquiring a drug used for lethal injections.

Holcomb said Wednesday that the state is seeking an execution date for Joseph Corcoran, a man convicted in the killings of four people in 1997. Republican Attorney General Todd Rokita filed a motion Wednesday asking the state Supreme Court to set an execution date…

…The yearslong pause has been attributed to the unavailability of lethal injection drugs.”

 

[Vern]

I don't know what the "filed" refers to - but my understanding is you do the search warrant return immediately, so that is why it is certified same day.

IMO Liggett is certifying that document on that day - otherwise the certification would make no sense if you later changed it.

Indeed you are correct; explained in an earlier post as well.

Nothing forgotten, nothing secret.

Nothing at all. A big zero burger.

 

[FrostedGlass]

That may be, but all the documents you are citing are dated 13 October 2022.
See page 13 and the pages that follows for their dates. Search Warrant was requested, granted and executed on 13 Oct 2022. That means that those checked items were sent to the ISP lab for testing as soon as they were recovered in the search on 13 October. The results of those tests were used prior to 01 May 2023 as part of the basis for the arrest.

The other items were not sent immediately.

Perhaps 01 May 2023 is the date they were filed into the sytem for part of the upcoming public release of documents? Regardless, they were on file and used to execute the arrest well-prior to 01 May.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Those original documents above became the basis for the PCA for arrest of RA.

The originals are not going to be then altered at a later date to show onward movement of other items for testing at lab(s). Rather a new receipt (& chain of custody), and their date, will be drafted/issued for those later items.

And, we already know nothing is being kept "secret" precisely because the other items that were also lab tested also had the results of those tests made public in same delphidocs link. An example is at the post below regarding the ISP testing and detailing that RAs magazine cartridges held 10 rounds each:

Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

So in his confessions he admits Motive for the murders. Also why he delayed confessing to the crimes. Ricky’s mum very upset first time he confessed to the crime and then they started to control the narrative and was telling him to stop confessing it seems. Page 11 and 12...

www.websleuths.com

I pulled two of your statements out for focus. Regarding your first paragraph: I searched through this one Indiana General Assembly and found nothing that relates to what you're saying. You stated this as fact; please source your claim.

Regarding your second statement, I asked about the absence of a test result on the carpet item showing it had been lab tested. Since we saw the test result on the gun/cartridges, I was curious as to why we didn't see the same for the piece of carpet.

"The originals are not going to be then altered at a later date to show onward movement of other items for testing at lab(s). Rather a new receipt (& chain of custody), and their date, will be drafted/issued for those later items.

And, we already know nothing is being kept "secret" precisely because the other items that were also lab tested also had the results of those tests made public in same delphidocs link. An example is at the post below regarding the ISP testing and detailing that RAs magazine cartridges held 10 rounds each:"

 

[Salah11]

It’s all very quiet considering the trial is less than a month away.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I pulled two of your statements out for focus. Regarding your first paragraph: I searched through this one Indiana General Assembly and found nothing that relates to what you're saying. You stated this as fact; please source your claim.

Regarding your second statement, I asked about the absence of a test result on the carpet item showing it had been lab tested. Since we saw the test result on the gun/cartridges, I was curious as to why we didn't see the same for the piece of carpet.

"The originals are not going to be then altered at a later date to show onward movement of other items for testing at lab(s). Rather a new receipt (& chain of custody), and their date, will be drafted/issued for those later items.

And, we already know nothing is being kept "secret" precisely because the other items that were also lab tested also had the results of those tests made public in same delphidocs link. An example is at the post below regarding the ISP testing and detailing that RAs magazine cartridges held 10 rounds each:"

All this back and forth about paperwork, in my opinion, is totally irrelevant to RA’s guilt or innocence.
I will weigh in on perhaps why the results on the carpet testing haven’t been released. The results were not necessary to get an arrest or a search warrant and since there is a gag order in place, that the prosecution has meticulously adhered to unlike the defense, the results are being held for trial. The defense knows the results, but we don’t. Could be a blockbuster, could be a nothing.
The prosecution has a lot of evidence we won’t see until trial.

Just my opinion

 

[Vern]

I pulled two of your statements out for focus. Regarding your first paragraph: I searched through this one Indiana General Assembly and found nothing that relates to what you're saying. You stated this as fact; please source your claim.

Regarding your second statement, I asked about the absence of a test result on the carpet item showing it had been lab tested. Since we saw the test result on the gun/cartridges, I was curious as to why we didn't see the same for the piece of carpet.

"The originals are not going to be then altered at a later date to show onward movement of other items for testing at lab(s). Rather a new receipt (& chain of custody), and their date, will be drafted/issued for those later items.

And, we already know nothing is being kept "secret" precisely because the other items that were also lab tested also had the results of those tests made public in same delphidocs link. An example is at the post below regarding the ISP testing and detailing that RAs magazine cartridges held 10 rounds each:"

Because it goes to Chain of Custody for the items on that list.

The Chain of Custody for items submitted later will be different that those "ticked" on the document dated for 13 October. They will simply be on a different one.

If the Chain of Custody/times are different they simply cannot be added to a "submitted for Lab analysis" document dated 13 Oct in arrears because they were not submitted at same time.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Because it goes to Chain of Custody for the items on that list.

The Chain of Custody for items submitted later will be different that those "ticked" on the document dated for 13 October. They will simply be on a different one.

If the Chain of Custody/times are different they simply cannot be added to a "submitted for Lab analysis" document dated 13 Oct in arrears because they were not submitted at same time.

That's what added to my confusion. At the bottom of each set of docs, it states "chain of custody on page 2" (or 4) but none of them were included with the rest of the return. That made me wonder if the were sealed or ?