Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #212

[FrostedGlass]

The handle on the boxcutters that I use for crafting have a weird pointy serrated-like end and also, the blades are meant to break off easily if they get dull. Also the blades are long and extendable.

eta the blade is 3" long when extended

I think it would take a lot of pressure to nearly decapitate a person with a craft knife, blades would snap.
Not saying it could never be done but how likely is it?

Can you make the marks like the pathologist showed with your craft knife?

 

[Appletreefarm35]

Now I'm really confused about RA's meds. Surely they weren't giving him daily doses of Haldol and monthly injections of it, too?

They had just given him a monthly dose 4 days before the Dr.'s visit so he probably was feeling better.

He was taking Prozac (daily?)
He was not consistent in taking his oral medications and so it was discontinued. (Haldol Decanoate?)

April 13, 2023: The prison psychologist ordered Allen receive an involuntary injection of psychotropic medication.
May 18, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
June 16, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.

Judge rules Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to be moved to county jail

It is not yet known where Allen will be housed or when he will be moved to a new jail.

www.wthr.com

He was given a monthly injection of something for 3 months. Is Seroquel injectible?

Even more confusing is this:
[snip]
"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit."

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

-Haloperidol is a first generation/typical antipsychotic.
-Haloperidol (Haldol) decanoate is a long acting intramuscular injection of haloperidol.
-It is not uncommon to also use oral or injectable haloperidol (Haldol) for agitation/aggression associated with psychiatric conditions on an as needed basis by itself or in addition to other medications. This is a standing order on most psychiatric units.
-Quetiapine (Seroquel) is a second generation/atypical antipsychotic. My suspicion is that is was being used as a low dose for insomnia to help RA sleep. It can be given at higher doses for maintenance therapy for a variety of psychological conditions. It is only available in an oral formulation.
-I feel confident stating from the reported testimony that the long-acting injections given for 3 months were haloperidol decanoate.

One of the videos posted upthread reported that Dr. Martin was very specific about medications given, doses, and dates in his testimony. I think it's unlikely we will get those specifics reported out until a transcript is available just given the large amount of data that would need to be written down in a short period of time for media. It appears that we're just getting a brief summary.

 

[tlcya]

The defense tool mark examiner did NOT even see or test the bullet (cartridge) and the gun !!

Not very Concise, IMO

yeah, he did his report based on photos. And never performed his own tests. I imagine his testimony WAS much briefer than the state's witness on the subject.

 

[raja]

I am so glad I am not on this Jury. Do I think RA is guilty…probably. Do I think this was proved BARD …not so much. I guess I am a “hung jury of one”. JMHO and I do so want justice for these two girls and their families.

 

[getthefax]

Some of the wounds were 2 inches deep. I don’t see how a box cutter could make that kind of incision.

Edited by me for clarity:

think a man could easily drive a box cutter 2” deep into a person’s neck, especially if he was stronger than the victim.

That said, the wounds were 2” long, and ~1” deep.

MOO.

 

[Salah11]

I am so glad I am not on this Jury. Do I think RA is guilty…probably. Do I think this was proved BARD …not so much. I guess I am a “hung jury of one”. JMHO and I do so want justice for these two girls and their families.

I believe they have done enough to get a conviction.

But RA helped them a lot by being a idiot and placing himself at the crime scene and admitting he dressed like the killer.

IMO

 

[Trebor5591]

Everything about this trial has been as clear as mud TO US…Because we have not had access to seeing and hearing it as it occurred. I’m sure there are many details that we haven’t been privy to. I am confident that the jury has a much clearer picture and will make the right decision based on the facts.

I hope the jury won't have their judgement clouded by the disturbing videos of RA in custody at the prison. It should be possible to believe both that it was wrong to house RA in isolation in the prison and that he murdered Abby and Libby. RA shouldn't get a pass on murdering the girls even though he did some hard time while awaiting trial.

 

[steeltowngirl]

So a question for the masses does anybody who thought he was guilty now think he is innocent?

No. I did struggle with why RA would choose victims so close to home. After thinking it over for a couple of days, I realized it’s not at all extraordinary. I have followed a number of cases where women were assaulted and murdered by men who lived nearby. Several were just out jogging or walking on a trail. After all the twists and turns with this case, it has turned out to be like many other cases. A man enacts a random act of violence on a perceived easy target. Probably fantasized about it during other trail walks in the past. For whatever reason, on a warm Monday in February, he turned his sick fantasy into reality.

jmo

 

[getthefax]

I think it would take a lot of pressure to nearly decapitate a person with a craft knife, blades would snap.
Not saying it could never be done but how likely is it?

Can you make the marks like the pathologist showed with your craft knife?

Respectfully,
If a couple of guys can divert planes full of people into the World Trade Center with box cutters, surely a guy can murder a couple of girls with them.

This is bordering on ridiculous IMO. The defense did not even argue that a box cutter could not have been used to commit the crime.

MOO

 

[Vern]

I think it would take a lot of pressure to nearly decapitate a person with a craft knife, blades would snap.
Not saying it could never be done but how likely is it?

Can you make the marks like the pathologist showed with your craft knife?

Here's a link to the kind I used at work. It isn't a craft knife and I highly doubt that RAs utility knife/box cutter (we call them utility knives here) was of the cheap, craft variety. It was intended for work purposes.

Can't cut skin? Nearly decapitate? OK. That just takes more cuts.

They seem to have worked on 911 --- so let's put that debate to bed quckly. IMO.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/husky-quick-change-serrated-utility-knife/1001523877

 

[katydid23]

I think it would take a lot of pressure to nearly decapitate a person with a craft knife, blades would snap.
Not saying it could never be done but how likely is it?

Can you make the marks like the pathologist showed with your craft knife?

But you don't know that for sure. You are guessing ----
but there are MANY murders where boxcutters were the weapon.

Victim of alleged box-cutter killer fought back but died from severe cut to the neck

Amy Humphries, 28, of Orange City had 77 cuts and stab wounds but the injury that severed her windpipe is what killed her, a medical examiner said.

www.news-journalonline.com

But of all the injuries, Ripple said that the large, deep cut that severed Humphries' windpipe, neck muscle, and veins, killed her.

"She basically bled to death," Ripple told jurors. "All I can say is the one that went through that windpipe was probably one of the last."

Ripple said Humphries' body was struck 77 times but it's possible that there were more injuries since smaller incisions may have been lost in more severe and larger cuts, like the ones in her neck and thigh.

"So, 77 are the wounds I could actually measure and can note that the blade actually did inflict," Ripple said.

US teacher Colleen Ritzer was 'killed with box cutter'

A student accused of murdering a Massachusetts high school maths teacher used a box cutter to stab her before disposing of her body, US media report.

www.bbc.com

US teacher Colleen Ritzer was 'killed with box cutter'​

Document: 70-year-old man used box cutter to kill his brother

A 70-year-old man used a box cutter to kill his brother, according to court documents.J

cbsaustin.com

 

[shonyakay]

I wonder why Wala felt compelled to testify that RA was faking his mental illness.

I thought Wala said at times she thought he may have been feigning, not the whole time.

Didn't this Doctor that testified today say RA was in and out of psychosis during April/May?

 

[FrostedGlass]

-Haloperidol is a first generation/typical antipsychotic.
-Haloperidol (Haldol) decanoate is a long acting intramuscular injection of haloperidol.
-It is not uncommon to also use oral or injectable haloperidol (Haldol) for agitation/aggression associated with psychiatric conditions on an as needed basis by itself or in addition to other medications. This is a standing order on most psychiatric units.
-Quetiapine (Seroquel) is a second generation/atypical antipsychotic. My suspicion is that is was being used as a low dose for insomnia to help RA sleep. It can be given at higher doses for maintenance therapy for a variety of psychological conditions. It is only available in an oral formulation.
-I feel confident stating from the reported testimony that the long-acting injections given for 3 months were haloperidol decanoate.

One of the videos posted upthread reported that Dr. Martin was very specific about medications given, doses, and dates in his testimony. I think it's unlikely we will get those specifics reported out until a transcript is available just given the large amount of data that would need to be written down in a short period of time for media. It appears that we're just getting a brief summary.

Thank you. That is helpful.

 

[shonyakay]

I wonder why RA continued to confess well after Martin said he was no longer in psychosis.

Exactly and in 2024.

Psychosis can't be the explanation for all of his confessions.

 

[shonyakay]

He also said RA continued to receive Haldol in June 2023. And said that he was psychotic on some days in May as well. His testimony is internally inconsistent. IMO

I thought the Haldol injections were only once a month?

 

[joe jones]

The defense tool mark examiner did NOT even see or test the bullet (cartridge) and the gun !!

Not very Concise, IMO

Wasn't asked to do so, he can't go round demanding to look at the evidence, he gets provided with the evidence from the attorneys he is working for, so they never asked him to do a comparison, and as he did not think one should make any opinions based on an unspent and a spent round examining the gun and cartridge wouldn't have changed his opinions, IMO
We may learn how much weight jurors placed on tool mark examinations if they speak once the case is resolved with one of there 3 choices

 

[FrostedGlass]

Respectfully,
If a couple of guys can divert planes full of people into the World Trade Center with box cutters, surely a guy can murder a couple of girls with them.

This is bordering on ridiculous IMO. The defense did not even argue that a box cutter could not have been used to commit the crime.

MOO

If it was a carpet cutting blade or a long drywall blade, I wouldn't dispute that. A craft knife with little snap-off sections for safety goes a bit into not likely.

Defense didn't argue about the box cutter because they knew the idea was ridiculous. MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

If it was a carpet cutting blade or a long drywall blade, I wouldn't dispute that. A craft knife with little snap-off sections for safety goes a bit into not likely.

Defense didn't argue about the box cutter because they knew the idea was ridiculous. MOO

Verging on preposterous, they could hardly argue a serrated ceremonial knife was used.

 

[gremlin444]

Some of the wounds were 2 inches deep. I don’t see how a box cutter could make that kind of incision.

Over the weekend I post about 6 links of news reports of people murdered with box cutters. At least 1 mentioned total decapitation. Abby's wound was shallower than Libby's.

Of note--on Libby, some of the wounds looked like they had been gone over twice, due to what appeared to be duplicated marks at the ends, per the ME's report.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

"Dr. Kohr said Libby’s right common carotid artery was partially cut and her left common corotid artery and left jugular vein were completely cut through. Dr. Kohr explained she had four wounds and possibly a fifth. Dr. Kohr said while it looks like three wounds, two of them overlapped and another one has a possibility of also being two cuts.

The largest wound, on the right side of the neck, had what he called a tag at the end. He said it’s more like an X pattern and it would have been someone making two passes with a sharp object, trying to be on the same line but not being fully accurate. The middle wound has the suggestion of a tag, but it’s not conclusive. That’s why Dr. Kohr said he can’t tell with certainty if there were five cuts. There could have been a second pass on that location as well, but he’s not sure."

 

[ManicMuggle83]

I thought the Haldol injections were only once a month?

The monthly is probably Invega.