VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #214

[Deleted member 296739]

Maybe there’s an hour of stuff that needs to be handled, court is in session at 9 and deliberations will start at 10am??

This has been a logistically challenging trial to follow - moo

 

[wtiger]

Due to a lack of evidence on their part. They made up a load of rubbish and obviously couldn’t prove any of it as it was fiction.

So that’s not doing a good job. IMO

the defence are required to provide ZERO evidence of anything!

 

[WildHuncher]

Regarding the CS photographs, tipped off by posts here, I went looking. And found.

Aside from a morbid curiosity that I’m not proud of, I wanted to see for myself whether the killer had given Abby “deer antlers.” Whether the the photos show this or the DT was indulging in convenient fantasy had been the subject of dispute in various fora.

There are small twigs near her head. Perhaps somewhat more than strewn over the rest of the ground. They make no antlers.

If this topic has become verboten, I’m OK with this post being deleted. (Haven’t caught up on the thread yet.)

EDITED to correct characterization of twig distribution.

 

[cherrybier]

Due to a lack of evidence on their part. They made up a load of rubbish and obviously couldn’t prove any of it as it was fiction.

So that’s not doing a good job. IMO

A defense is there to create doubt.

The P is required to have evidence against whomever they're trying to convict. It's their burden.

 

[BexLuth0r]

Here's to hoping for a verdict today. And that the families are holding on/ keeping it together. I can't imagine how difficult this is for them

 

[Niner]

I do believe that the Jury has asked to begin at 10am this morning and was granted that start time.

IMO because I can't find the link!

Yep; here. 10 am start today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855027454697435623

I have a total of 8 hours - did they NOT take lunch (1 hour) than yesterday? That would bring it to 9 hours.

TIA!

 

[Salah11]

the defence are required to provide ZERO evidence of anything!

As it relates to paragraph 7, the burden is on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders of the two victims. The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence. The Court finds the defense has failed to produce admissible evidence demonstrating a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders.

Therefore, the Court grants paragraph 7 of the State's Motion in Limine over defendant's objection. The Court will not permit the evidence submitted by the defense in support of their arguments regarding third-party perpetrators in the trial of this cause as the probative value of such evidence is greatly outweighed by confusion of the issues and its potential to mislead the jury. The Court will allow that evidence to support an offer of proof at the trial if one is made by Counsel. Jury selection will commence in Allen Superior Court October 14, 2024, with trial commencing in the Carroll Circuit Court, concluding November 15, 2024.

ETA link

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[Salah11]

A defense is there to create doubt.

The P is required to have evidence against whomever they're trying to convict. It's their burden.

As it relates to paragraph 7, the burden is on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders of the two victims. The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[WildHuncher]

Apparently, it’s been deemed an appendage for KAK.

The fact that the defense threw in odinists with KAK has jarred me since. It is so incredibly devoid of strategy and doomed from the start. Which makes me wonder - A defence team for whom exactly?

IMHO

I suspect the defense quietly feared their client was involved with KAK. Apparently, the last thing a lawyer wants is guilty knowledge. (I thank @AugustWest for explaining that point, which I didn’t know.)

Their Franks hearing motions beat the Odinist SODDI theory like a drum, all but totally ignoring the catfishing ring and Libby’s contact with the Shots account. I found it suspicious that they would so pointedly ignore such an obvious avenue for further investigation.

 

[MiniMoo]

As a veteran, I suspect that he carried Libby to the final place (easier to carry than to drag IMO experience of carrying 250lb casevac); her head would be down and ergo and blood flow over her face. In which case, the blood would be flowing exactly 'with gravity' and over her face towards the ground; no drag marks at the scene. He may have dragged her up from the tree that she rested against, her feet going through the pool of her own blood, picked her up from there then carried her and placed her where he did.

Nothingburger.

Just another nothingburger. IMO.

Am sure Pat Cicero said she stepped in her own blood, sat at one point and could have even lent against a tree for support - all of which requires movement.

To me, this suggests the motion of stepping forward and backward like someone staggering perhaps.

When blood is gushing out like that it doesn't go upward.

Will see if I can find what Cicero stated, if possible.

JMO MOO JMT

Link: Libby: Blood Pattern Expert

 

[steeltowngirl]

I think if I was about 80-90% certain and sitting on that Jury I'd still convict. Set him free and it's done. At 80-90% could you live with that?

He can appeal and get a retrial.
Then him,his family and his defense team can really come back and push the miscarriage of justice and the ground breaking odinist theory instead of doing what they did this time around and not really offer anything of note towards his innocence.

95% per an opinion piece written by Judge Jon O. Newman during his tenure as the Bolch Judicial Institute’s inaugural Distinguished Judge in Residence.

Taking “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” Seriously

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt requires evidence of such persuasive force that you are convinced of the defendant's guilt to a very high degree of certainty.

judicature.duke.edu

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Gotta be a decent chance of a verdict today!

MOO I find it so incredible to think that if Allen had just kept his mouth shut he would have most likely been allowed to simply live out the rest of his life in the community.

Instead he handed the state their entire case.

I honestly believe if he had just turned and ran off when spooked by the van the he also would have never been caught and two beautiful, bright girls would still be alive today.
He had an opportunity to chance course. He didn’t.
Jmo

 

[snarast]

As it relates to paragraph 7, the burden is on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders of the two victims. The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence.

Any argument including this pathetic nexus is inadmissible.

When Logan and KAK were out, thanks to being associated with odinistic panic, this case comes so much closer to a guilty verdict.

IMHO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think if I was about 80-90% certain and sitting on that Jury I'd still convict. Set him free and it's done. At 80-90% could you live with that?

He can appeal and get a retrial.
Then him,his family and his defense team can really come back and push the miscarriage of justice and the ground breaking odinist theory instead of doing what they did this time around and not really offer anything of note towards his innocence.

I couldn't convict on anything less than Guilty BARD. If convicted RA can try for an appeal, but it doesn't mean he'll automatically get one. The Odinist theory will make no more sense 2 years from now than it does today nor will RA's own statements get him off or keep him off the bridge.

R&B won't be his appellate attorneys IMO. Maybe CW from the Due Process Gang along with Hennessy and Ausbrook (spelling ?), I'd say she probably has one already drafted. Let's throw in BM just for kicks.

JMO

 

[Poedelini]

Defense just walked into the courthouse. Hidden true crime is live.

 

[arielilane]

13 Things To Know From The #Delphi Murders Trial Today - Nov 8

1. No verdict today. On the first full day of deliberations, jurors arrived around 8:55am & left the courthouse at 3:50pm. For those keeping score at home, that’s roughly 9 hours of deliberation time so far.


2. A lot of folks I spoke to outside the courthouse expected a verdict today—especially since it’s Friday & the assumption is the sequestered jurors (understandably) want to reunite w their families in time for the weekend. It’s just not that simple. SO much evidence to review.


3. Making this case so complex: multiple timelines the jury must review (time of murders vs witness statements & forensic data, dates of confessions vs dates of RA mental health diagnosis) and 100% opposite testimony from state & defense experts on ballistics & RA mental health.


4. That complexity combined with the jury’s demonstrated curiosity and willingness to ask lots of questions suggests the deliberations could well last several more days. So no real surprise that we do not have a verdict after just 9 hours of deliberations.


5. The jury can ask to re-view evidence. It occurred to me that jurors did not get to listen to Bridge Guy’s “down the hill” statement side-by-side with Richard Allen’s voice during his interrogations. They could ask to do that. I expect they’ll soon ask to re-view some evidence.


6. If that happens, Allen & his attorneys (and the prosecutors) will be allowed to be in the courtroom while jurors revisit evidence & testimony. So don’t get freaked out if Allen arrives at the courthouse in the coming days — not necessarily a sign that jurors reached a verdict.


7. That brings us to timing of a verdict. Once jurors have a decision, it will likely be 90-120 minutes before it’s read in court. Allen is 30 min away at the Cass Co Jail. He & other people must arrive & more security measures must be implemented before a verdict is announced.



8. While jurors deliberated inside, lots of people gathered outside. Some of the 80+ folks outside the courthouse made signs. Some of those signs supported the victims & their families or Richard Allen, while others criticized how the case has been handled by the judge & police.


9. Friday morning we also noticed many businesses around downtown Delphi had newly-painted messages in honor of Abby & Libby — a reminder of why so much local, state, national & international attention is focused on this small Indiana town.


10. A security change was made at the courthouse Friday. Vans that transport jurors will no longer exit at the NW corner of the building. I was told it’s an effort to prevent jurors from seeing signs of protest or support that could influence their opinion & impact the verdict.


11. The jury will restart deliberations Sat morning at 9:00. If there is no verdict by Sat night, jurors will get an off day on Sun before resuming discussions Mon morning. Judge Gull said a few days ago that everyone needs a rest on Sun; these jurors deserve it.


12. The Delphi Murders Trial So Far (by the numbers):

-64 witnesses
-387 exhibits
-17 days of testimony
-9 hours of deliberations
-23 days jurors sequestered
-36 police depts providing security
-29 video/audio clips played for jury
-4 murder charges facing R Allen


13. One more Delphi Debrief this week to take a closer look at everything that happened on Day 19. I’m joined by an all-star team including @EmilyWTHR @SamJohnsonNews @ScottWTHR and 13News legal analyst Katie Jackson-Lindsay. #wthrhttps://youtube.com/watch?v=Jce9e69sTNY




Thread reader [includes photos]

Thread by @BobSegallWTHR on Thread Reader App

@BobSegallWTHR: 13 Things To Know From The #Delphi Murders Trial Today - Nov 8 1. No verdict today. On the first full day of deliberations, jurors arrived around 8:55am & left the courthouse at 3:50pm. For...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[arielilane]

@KylaBRussell

#NEW: Richard Allen’s defense team has arrived to the Carroll County Courthouse during the third day of jury deliberations.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855259341776920770

 

[snarast]

I suspect the defense quietly feared their client was involved with KAK. Apparently, the last thing a lawyer wants is guilty knowledge. (I thank @AugustWest for explaining that point, which I didn’t know.)

Their Franks hearing motions beat the Odinist SODDI theory like a drum, all but totally ignoring the catfishing ring and Libby’s contact with the Shots account. I found it suspicious that they would so pointedly ignore such an obvious avenue for further investigation.

That’s quite plausible. Lets hope it’s just KAK and RA if so. These disgusting people need to be reigned in and incarcerated - all of them.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I honestly believe if he had just turned and ran off when spooked by the van the he also would have never been caught and two beautiful, bright girls would still be alive today.
He had an opportunity to chance course. He didn’t.
Jmo

No he didn't because I believe RA went there with the purpose to do exactly what he did. I don't buy his 'poor fragile egg' theory at all. I believe he was a NARC little man who enjoyed some sick perversions. It was about control and dominance, a situation where he was ultimately in charge of life and death and that was The Day.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

@MaxLewisTV

Shop windows around the courthouse in Delphi have been decorated with Abby and Libby as we wait for a verdict in their murder case.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855245403848884294

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855260501179003018