accident?

[rashomon]

rashomon,
imo you do not stage a homicide to hide an accident, many stagings are the converse with vehicle, arson, and suicide popular methods to staging an accident.

UKGuy,

It is true that many murders are staged to make them look like accidents, but imo what was staged in the JB case was a cruel sexual predator scene to hide not an 'accident', but manslaughter by a parent.

With JonBenet dead, she can no longer be witness against her abuser, possibly a motive, but not a reason to draw attention to this by injuring her with the paintbrush.

JB could no longer testify against her abuser, but the condition her genital organs were in (showing signs of chronic abuse) would have been silent witnesses. And I think that her abuser inflicted the paintbrush injury to misdirect the attention: he wanted to make it appear as if a cruel sexual predator had done all this.

But just why should John back up Patsy, and risk a jail sentence if he was not involved, bear in mind the witness to prior abuse is now dead?

Because imo he himself had something to hide too: the signs of chronic abuse on JB. Patsy needn't necessarily have known about the abuse. I believe it was John who suggested to Patsy to stage a sexual assault scene, without revealing his true motives for the staging.

Aside from that, both parents could have been covering up for Burke's sake. Not because Burke killed JB, but because they did not want Burke having to realize that one of his parents had killed his little sister.

 

[BBB167893]

NP: I tend to buy into number two also. The Snow White syndrome makes sense. Not that Pasty actually planned a first degree murder (like the wicked queen in the fairy tale who wanted Snow White out of the way), but she may have had feelings of bitter jealousy when looking at JB's budding beauty, while at the same time having to realize that she herself would never be the beautiful Miss West Virginia again.
I suppose tings had been brewing for quite some time and it reached a boiling point. There were a lot of stress factors in Patsy's life, as you have pointed out in your above post. People under extreme stress don't always need a specific motive, all it takes is often only a trigger to unleash their pent-up anger and frustration.

Maybe she figured she wouldn't have to deal with it until the boys started calling on JB?

 

[rashomon]

Maybe she figured she wouldn't have to deal with it until the boys started calling on JB?

I think Patsy's motives were fairly complex. For in the pageants, she purposely dressed up her pre-pubescent daughter in an outfit and high heels to make her look sexually attractive like a Las Vegas showgirl. I think Patsy wanted to show off her daughter as an extension of her own beautiful appearance, as the living proof that Patsy had passed on her beauty genes to JB. Which is why for example she went on stage with JB with both of them dressed up as Marilyn Monroe. The message being clear: "Look at my beautiful daughter, but look at me too, I'm just as beautiful, and it is me who is the sexually mature person here - I'm Marilyn Monroe." ("Mirror, Miror on the wall, I'm still the fairest of them all!")
But the older JB got, the more Patsy's fantasy ended. JB trying to become her own self, and inevitably approaching a stage where she would not be a child easily manipulated anymore - and I think that's when Patsy experienced the ugly aspect of the Snow White syndrome: bitter jealousy.

 

[Eagle1]

I think Patsy's motives were fairly complex. For in the pageants, she purposely dressed up her pre-pubescent daughter in an outfit and high heels to make her look sexually attractive like a Las Vegas showgirl. I think Patsy wanted to show off her daughter as an extension of her own beautiful appearance, as the living proof that Patsy had passed on her beauty genes to JB. Which is why for example she went on stage with JB with both of them dressed up as Marilyn Monroe. The message being clear: "Look at my beautiful daughter, but look at me too, I'm just as beautiful, and it is me who is the sexually mature person here - I'm Marilyn Monroe."

("Mirror, Miror on the wall, I'm still the fairest of them all!")
But the older JB got, the more Patsy's fantasy ended. JB trying to become her own self, and inevitably approaching a stage where she would not be a child easily manipulated anymore - and I think that's when Patsy experienced the ugly aspect of the Snow White syndrome: bitter jealousy.

But how many cases like this have we heard of besides the FAIRY TALE which doesn't even have a link?

I haven't even been able to find out by googling how many American parents kill their children, so you probably won't find them that way.

Google, google on the wall....who's the wickedest mother of them all?

You know me, just kidding.

 

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

It is true that many murders are staged to make them look like accidents, but imo what was staged in the JB case was a cruel sexual predator scene to hide not an 'accident', but manslaughter by a parent.

imo forensic evidence suggests this was murder.

JB could no longer testify against her abuser, but the condition her genital organs were in (showing signs of chronic abuse) would have been silent witnesses. And I think that her abuser inflicted the paintbrush injury to misdirect the attention: he wanted to make it appear as if a cruel sexual predator had done all this.

It was still a silent witness, paintbrush injury or not, with JonBenet dead, she cannot speak! How do you misdirect the attention by inflicting an injury, even JonBenet's stager recognized this by wiping her down and changing her underwear!

Because imo he himself had something to hide too: the signs of chronic abuse on JB. Patsy needn't necessarily have known about the abuse. I believe it was John who suggested to Patsy to stage a sexual assault scene, without revealing his true motives for the staging.

Patsy trains JonBenet for pageants, sexualizing her from an early age, and you think she did not know about any sexual abuse?

The standard PDI with JR contributing forensic evidence that fills in the obvious gaps in the PDI theories are plausible, but imo dont explain things, also if Patsy does not know about JR allegedly abusing JonBenet, but JR knows PDI, and JR covers his tracks, why should he back Patsy up?

We know from the fibers found in the garrote knotting that it was Patsy who constructed it, so was it her who injured JonBenet with the paintbrush handle? Was it her who wiped her down, was it her who changed JonBenet's underwear?

The PDI theory as presented to date, does not add up for me!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Patsy's motives were fairly complex. For in the pageants, she purposely dressed up her pre-pubescent daughter in an outfit and high heels to make her look sexually attractive like a Las Vegas showgirl. I think Patsy wanted to show off her daughter as an extension of her own beautiful appearance, as the living proof that Patsy had passed on her beauty genes to JB. Which is why for example she went on stage with JB with both of them dressed up as Marilyn Monroe. The message being clear: "Look at my beautiful daughter, but look at me too, I'm just as beautiful, and it is me who is the sexually mature person here - I'm Marilyn Monroe." ("Mirror, Miror on the wall, I'm still the fairest of them all!")
But the older JB got, the more Patsy's fantasy ended. JB trying to become her own self, and inevitably approaching a stage where she would not be a child easily manipulated anymore - and I think that's when Patsy experienced the ugly aspect of the Snow White syndrome: bitter jealousy.

rashomon
mmm, sounds plausible, but does this mean that Patsy was a masochist since it was at her behest that JonBenet was trained, schooled, and dressed to appear in those pageants?

I'll credit Patsy with more intelligence than to become jealous of a 6-year old, which results in murder! Particularly her own daughter, finding a suspect culpable because you feel she fits some fairytale or jungian stereotype, is precisely what I mean when I suggest PDI is a psychologically satisfying theory structured along gender themes.


.

 

[JMO8778]

I've also wondered if PR could have been dressing up JB so maturely and provacatively.... for JR? Perhaps she was trying to keep him 'at home' and away from the blond B**** down the St.,mentioned in ST's book ..or using JB as a sub for her,if she was disinterested anymore.
From seeing JB on stage and so highly made up,I keep getting the feeling that she was made up specifically 'for' someone in particular.I have to wonder if the moms who planned to talk with PR about it also were getting the same impression and wanted to call her on it.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon
mmm, sounds plausible, but does this mean that Patsy was a masochist since it was at her behest that JonBenet was trained, schooled, and dressed to appear in those pageants?

I'll credit Patsy with more intelligence than to become jealous of a 6-year old, which results in murder! Particularly her own daughter, finding a suspect culpable because you feel she fits some fairytale or jungian stereotype, is precisely what I mean when I suggest PDI is a psychologically satisfying theory structured along gender themes.

UKGuy,
Intelligence is a cognitive thing, whereas jealousy is an emotional thing. An intelligent person can become just as jealous as any other person. In fact, highly intelligent people have committed murders because bitter jealousy consumed them. And where jealousy is concerned, rational motives play second fiddle, which is why I think even intelligent people can become jealous of their own children.
I don't believe that Patsy 'murdered' JB though. I think that Pasty tried to live vicariously through her daughter's beauty and fame for quite some time. JonBenet's dance instructor had the impression that Patsy was trying to relive her own pageant thing, and that JB was doing the pageants to please her mother. Patsy was always present during rehearsals and got on the dance instructor's nerves because she always interfered with the lessons, even tried to dance together with JB. The teacher had to tell Patsy to stop doing that because she couldn't work that way with JB.
I can imagine JB was more and more trying to struggle free from her overbearing mother.
I believe Patsy snapped and lost it, and not that she planned to kill her daughter in any way.

 

[UKGuy]

I've also wondered if PR could have been dressing up JB so maturely and provacatively.... for JR? Perhaps she was trying to keep him 'at home' and away from the blond B**** down the St.,mentioned in ST's book ..or using JB as a sub for her,if she was disinterested anymore.
From seeing JB on stage and so highly made up,I keep getting the feeling that she was made up specifically 'for' someone in particular.I have to wonder if the moms who planned to talk with PR about it also were getting the same impression and wanted to call her on it.

JMO8778,

Yes I reckon so, it would be nice to be able to view the collection of photographs that the BPD found, these may confirm your thoughts more fully?


.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Intelligence is a cognitive thing, whereas jealousy is an emotional thing. An intelligent person can become just as jealous as any other person. In fact, highly intelligent people have committed murders because jealousy consumed them.
I don't believe that Patsy 'murdered' JB though. I think that Pasty tried to live vicariously through her daughter's beauty and fame for quite some time. JonBenet's dance instructor had the impression that Patsy was trying to relive her own pageant thing, and that JB was doing the pageants to please her mother. Patsy was always present during rehearsals and got on the dance instructor's nerves because she always interfered with the lessons, even tried to dance together with JB. The teacher had to tell Patsy to stop doing that because she couldn't work that way with JB.
I can imagine JB was more and more trying to struggle free from her overbearing mother.
I believe Patsy snapped and lost it, and not that she planned to kill her daughter in any way.

rashomon,

JonBenet's dance instructor had the impression that Patsy was trying to relive her own pageant thing, and that JB was doing the pageants to please her mother.

I'm certain that she did this, but so do thousands of other mothers, and they do not snap and murder their children. They may go to great lengths, using various types of bribery to promote their child, but how many kill because their daughter is now outshining them?

There is more to JonBenet's death than a parent losing it emotionally.



.

 

[rashomon]

[rashomon]It is true that many murders are staged to make them look like accidents, but imo what was staged in the JB case was a cruel sexual predator scene to hide not an 'accident', but manslaughter by a parent.

rashomon,
imo forensic evidence suggests this was murder.

Imo that was exactly what the stager of the scene had in mind: he wanted the scene to look like a murder (committed by an outsider).

Patsy trains JonBenet for pageants, sexualizing her from an early age, and you think she did not know about any sexual abuse?

You are probably right. But it doesn't mean that Pasty actually knew what was going on, maybe she didn't really want to know and decided to turn a blind eye to it.
But another possibility is outlined in this post:

JMO8778 I've also wondered if PR could have been dressing up JB so maturely and provacatively.... for JR? Perhaps she was trying to keep him 'at home' and away from the blond B**** down the St.,mentioned in ST's book ..or using JB as a sub for her,if she was disinterested anymore.
From seeing JB on stage and so highly made up,I keep getting the feeling that she was made up specifically 'for' someone in particular.

This would mean that Patsy actually ecouraged John to abuse their daughter. Terrible thought, but criminal history tells us that there is nothing parents aren't capable of doing.

 

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

You are probably right. But it doesn't mean that Pasty actually knew what was going on, maybe she didn't really want to know and decided to turn a blind eye to it.

...

But another possibility is outlined in this post:

JMO8778 I've also wondered if PR could have been dressing up JB so maturely and provacatively.... for JR? Perhaps she was trying to keep him 'at home' and away from the blond B**** down the St.,mentioned in ST's book ..or using JB as a sub for her,if she was disinterested anymore.
From seeing JB on stage and so highly made up,I keep getting the feeling that she was made up specifically 'for' someone in particular.

This would mean that Patsy actually ecouraged John to abuse their daughter.
Terrible thought, but criminal history tells us that there is nothing parents aren't capable of doing.

Parents are capable of murdering their own children, and with JonBenet this is what occurred.

The Why is not fully explained by any of the PDI theories, in the Toilet Rage version there is a glaring inconsistency with the stated staging, so there is obviously more to this case than what has been presented so far.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Re: Fibers

I doubt most people know anything at all about fiber evidence, and how fibers end up on other things/people. Most people aren't crime buffs spending all their free time on message boards talking about unsolved murders - like us I doubt the perpetrator(s) made any effort to ensure fibers didn't end up in certain places, or did end up in certain places. I doubt fiber evidence was on the mind of the perp(s) - otherwise why leave the fibers from the wipe down?

Re: Snow White Theory.

Too extreme to be plausible. Besides PR had appeared in public (at JB's school was it?) bald, due to the chemo she was taking during her previous bout with cancer. So she had adjusted to the fact that the mirror was no longer reporting her to be fairest in all the land.

Re: Patsy being complicit in JR's molestation of JB.

Possible. Women have allowed the men in their lives to abuse their children, rather than risk loosing the man. Horrible, but true. This gets us back to emotional response verses intellectual response. Smart people do stupid things, based on emotion.

 

[BBB167893]

Which is why for example she went on stage with JB with both of them dressed up as Marilyn Monroe. The message being clear: "Look at my beautiful daughter, but look at me too, I'm just as beautiful, and it is me who is the sexually mature person here - I'm Marilyn Monroe." ("Mirror, Miror on the wall, I'm still the fairest of them all!")

Reminds of how some guys use their dogs as chick magnets.

But the older JB got, the more Patsy's fantasy ended. JB trying to become her own self, and inevitably approaching a stage where she would not be a child easily manipulated anymore - and I think that's when Patsy experienced the ugly aspect of the Snow White syndrome: bitter jealousy.

Denial's not just a river in Egypt anymore.

Patsy trains JonBenet for pageants, sexualizing her from an early age, and you think she did not know about any sexual abuse?

I think she had a damn good idea, at the very least.

mmm, sounds plausible, but does this mean that Patsy was a masochist since it was at her behest that JonBenet was trained, schooled, and dressed to appear in those pageants?

That would correspond with what Kane said about Patsy loving to play the victim.

I've also wondered if PR could have been dressing up JB so maturely and provacatively.... for JR? Perhaps she was trying to keep him 'at home' and away from the blond B**** down the St.,mentioned in ST's book ..or using JB as a sub for her,if she was disinterested anymore.
From seeing JB on stage and so highly made up,I keep getting the feeling that she was made up specifically 'for' someone in particular.I have to wonder if the moms who planned to talk with PR about it also were getting the same impression and wanted to call her on it.

Sounds like my brother's idea.

This would mean that Patsy actually ecouraged John to abuse their daughter. Terrible thought, but criminal history tells us that there is nothing parents aren't capable of doing.

And we'd all do well to remember that.

I doubt most people know anything at all about fiber evidence, and how fibers end up on other things/people. Most people aren't crime buffs spending all their free time on message boards talking about unsolved murders - like us I doubt the perpetrator(s) made any effort to ensure fibers didn't end up in certain places, or did end up in certain places. I doubt fiber evidence was on the mind of the perp(s) - otherwise why leave the fibers from the wipe down?

You're probably right.

Re: Snow White Theory.

Too extreme to be plausible. Besides PR had appeared in public (at JB's school was it?) bald, due to the chemo she was taking during her previous bout with cancer. So she had adjusted to the fact that the mirror was no longer reporting her to be fairest in all the land.

I don't think JB had started the pageants yet, though.

This gets us back to emotional response verses intellectual response. Smart people do stupid things, based on emotion.

Don't I know it!

Re: Patsy being complicit in JR's molestation of JB.
Possible. Women have allowed the men in their lives to abuse their children, rather than risk loosing the man. Horrible, but true.

It's more common than we'd like to admit.

 

[JMO8778]

There's also the denial factor there sometimes in abuse;things happen and ppl chose it as a matter of self-preservation..ignore it and it isn't happening,distance yourself from it and it hasn't occured.Perhaps PR was forced to confront the abuse that night and was no longer able to deny it..so something or someone had to give.

Abuse can occur gradually,with it becoming worse over time but others not realizing it or not seeing it for what it really is,because it came on so slowly.Recall the story of the camel asking to put his head in his master's tent,until slowly over time,the camel was all the way in and his owner was outside,without knowing how that happened ...that reminds me of Nedra's comment that JB was 'just a little bit abused'.

I can't help but think the Santa visit after Xmas tied into JB's murder somehow,not that murder was planned though.

BTW,does anyone find it odd that Susan Stine was the last outside the family to see JB alive,and also said she was asleep?JAT as she's such a firm R supporter.(still is I guess?).If she has any sense,then she probably regrets being associated with them at all.I also found it odd that the Stine's were one of the few sets of friends(if not the only?) that weren't thrown under the R's bus.

 

[narlacat]

I find the Stines, especially SS's behaviour odd fullstop.
Who leaves cushy jobs and moves interstate just because their friends do?
SS was also the one who answered the door to LE at the party on the 23rd, after the 911 call.

 

[UKGuy]

I find the Stines, especially SS's behaviour odd fullstop.
Who leaves cushy jobs and moves interstate just because their friends do?
SS was also the one who answered the door to LE at the party on the 23rd, after the 911 call.

narlacat,

Is this the Stockholm Syndrome in the JonBenet case? Does Susan Stine become enamoured of Patsy Ramsey, and defect so to speak, or does it run deeper?

Why should Susan Stine be so ready to defend the Ramsey's, whats the percentage?

This and other aspects to Susan Stine's behaviour e.g. fake emails etc, give a little insight into the closed world of the Ramsey's, it lets you see there is something hidden?

Were the Stines made an offer they could not refuse, do they know something the Ramsey's would prefer nobody else knew? imo the Stine's silence speaks volumes.


.

 

[JMO8778]

narlacat,

Is this the Stockholm Syndrome in the JonBenet case? Does Susan Stine become enamoured of Patsy Ramsey, and defect so to speak, or does it run deeper?

Why should Susan Stine be so ready to defend the Ramsey's, whats the percentage?

This and other aspects to Susan Stine's behaviour e.g. fake emails etc, give a little insight into the closed world of the Ramsey's, it lets you see there is something hidden?

Were the Stines made an offer they could not refuse, do they know something the Ramsey's would prefer nobody else knew? imo the Stine's silence speaks volumes.


.

I agree, UK.And the emails were downright weird.SS said she just had a sense of humor,well whatever it was,in the least it was childish.

 

[JMO8778]

I find the Stines, especially SS's behaviour odd fullstop.
Who leaves cushy jobs and moves interstate just because their friends do?
SS was also the one who answered the door to LE at the party on the 23rd, after the 911 call.

Yes,I have to wonder,did she know something was going on and was covering for them?((And who are the ppl she's covered for since the murder?? ....The R's)) And why did SS answer and take care of the matter,why not one of the R's, as it was their house.(as I recall,it was done thru an outside speaker?) Why didn't she at least open the door to take care of it,it was after all,the police,not a salesman.
The R's seemed pretty comfy and confident hiding behind the Stine's when they lived with them,SS answering the door and taking care of most things, it sounded like in DOI.

 

[Eagle1]

Was it Atlanta that they all moved to? And the Stines stayed there when the Ramseys moved up north?

SD asked a question on the previous page and I've just now found an opening. Let's remember where we were, Susan Stine, okay?

"Eagle1, in response to your claim that a parent wouldn't think of beheading a child, Ron Walker, same said FBI man, claims that he has worked cases where a parent has done EXACTLY that." Did I really say that? If I did, remember my siggy, opinion of the moment, and that would have been before reading last night's search results.

In researching the psychology of and number of American beheading filicides, I found an instance of a mother actually baking her little daughter in a roasting pan, telling her husband when he lifted the lid, "You love her so much, here she is!" FBI man R. Hazelwood told that story.

But this is rare, and beheading may or may not be even more rare. I'm just trying to find out how many and something about the psychology. I jotted down a few notes from a 9-pg PDF file, you can enlarge a lot to read.

Seemed every time they had a conclusion in their study, the saying "To every rule there's an exception" was proven with one case like the roasting pan one. One study had 30 subjects, and I believe some other studies were also mention. The majority of parents in one study, 3/4ths, were not psychotic. 43% had used psychiatric services and/or been hospitalized. There were 8 subgroups of factors thought to be causative. Ages ranged from 25 to 52. 51 children had been killed. Substance abuse was only about 27%. Spousal revenge not a very big factor. Altruism possibly the most usual motivation, when kids were suffering from some illness so they'd be better off, and like that. In 23% of the cases, no motive could be found.

These are only about 2% of all homicides?

"Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their ...
Several recent cases of filicide, child murder by parents, ... prior to committing filicide and 40 percent had recently seen a physician or psychiatrist. ...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/4/496
Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their ...
cent had recently seen a physician or psychiatrist. In ... Offense characteristics: total children, children in filicide, child age, ...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/33/4/496.pdf "