Thinking that he may have been doing a little 'side business' during his travels.
Maybe he never admitted it to protect those for whom he might have been hustling.
AK, NY Israel Keyes - Who are all of his victims???
- Thread starter SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
- Start date
- Status
Thinking that he may have been doing a little 'side business' during his travels.
Maybe he never admitted it to protect those for whom he might have been hustling.
SeeingForThe1stTime
Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 423
- Reaction score
- 2
I'm wondering if Keyes has been looked at in the disappearance of Madison Scott in Vanderhoof, BC on May 27, 2011? She was camping alone (!) in a rural area when she went missing. From one of his known (or suspected?) locations in May of 2011 it would be about a day and a half drive and around 1600 miles if he avoided the tolls to where she was last seen. Usually that many miles would exclude a suspect for me, but with Keyes case I don't think it does. In fact, it might make it more likely to have been him because of the distance. From what is known about what he was doing around this time it's clear that he was in "hunt and kill" mode, but claims to have been interrupted by LE while stalking a couple in AK. He also claimed to not have taken anyone from North Fork Trailhead in Eagle River, Alaska where he was hunting this couple. I believe it's important to consider the way he played games with the information so it may be important that he said he didn't take anyone from that location specifically. IIRC, he did rent a car around this time but for some reason the mileage is unlisted or unknown.
Map from Eagle River, AK to Vanderhoof, BC:
https://www.google.com/maps?t=m&ll=...749,0.16595668639327069&output=classic&dg=opt
Madison Scott Website: http://madisonscott.ca/
Madison Scott's Websleuths thread:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138458"]CANADA Canada - Madison Scott, 20, Vanderhoof, B.C., 27 May 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
48 hours "Highway of Tears" featuring the Madison Scott Case:
[ame="http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135366n"]Highway of Tears - 48 Hours - CBS News[/ame]
Map from Eagle River, AK to Vanderhoof, BC:
https://www.google.com/maps?t=m&ll=...749,0.16595668639327069&output=classic&dg=opt
Madison Scott Website: http://madisonscott.ca/
Madison Scott's Websleuths thread:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138458"]CANADA Canada - Madison Scott, 20, Vanderhoof, B.C., 27 May 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
48 hours "Highway of Tears" featuring the Madison Scott Case:
[ame="http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135366n"]Highway of Tears - 48 Hours - CBS News[/ame]
Hi, all. Read entire thread, have listened to and watched all interviews with IK, as well as all linked articles.
Quick response to "seeing for the 1st time," above. I'm kind of thinking not, because this is directly before the Vermont trip murders in June 2011. IK's obsession at the time was with perfecting his silencer, and using it his upcoming trip "back east." Then he got too excited to wait, and thought about trying it out locally. But the places he lay in wait were bike rides from his house, and, after the episode where the cops showed up, he shelved the impulse for a week or so. I extrapolated that this might well be a time he was expected to be a "regular guy," hanging out with his gf at home prior to the trip to ostensibly visit family. He also stated (and i found credible) that it was only after the Vermont trip that murdering didn't have a calming effect for at least 6 months. Therefore, I believe he had not killed for at least 6 months prior to June 2011.
-------
Stuff I believe about potential victims based on all info available to me:
1) All victims will be low profile, with none having generated more than a day or 2 news story
2) All will be either missing persons or non-missed persons. In other words, we are not looking for victims whose bodies were found and known to be homicides. One victim was found and ruled an accident.
3) Bodies will be either weighted in very deep water or buried or burned in house fires that were not ruled arson. May be dismembered. All bodies will be skeletal at this point.
4) There is at least one man who was traveling alone, probably hiking. (this I extrapolated)
5) One body is in Crystal Lake in Washington State
6) None are friends or acquaintances of IK.
7) I extrapolate at least one woman traveling alone at night on a deserted rural road. Probably more than one, as he said (rough quote, from memory), "people are naive, they don't expect something like that to happen'"
8) Not all trips were kill trips. This is my opinion, but it looked to me as though the pattern involved trips to check on or move caches; trips to establish caches; trips to revisit bodies and sometimes move or destroy them; trips to bury souvenirs. Some trips were only bank robbery or only lurking around abandoned houses and "staking out" likely areas. The finding of good places and the staking out were a big part of the behavior, and I got the sense he liked choosing victims and then being thwarted and having the self-control to continue the hunt. He used the word "shopping" in two separate interviews. Shopping, i think, was almost as fun as "buying." I also think he liked the godlike power of knowing that, if he chose, this person would soon be dead, but was somehow saved by a small hitch, and would never know how lucky they were.
9) LE should look especially at people who disappeared in severely inclement weather. The 2 cases we know details of were on very stormy nights.
10) He leaves town the day after killing. That means that some trips (like the NO cruise) are "distancing trips." The travel is not to a crime location, but from one.
11) I believe a large part of the driving is both targeting and nostalgia. I think he revisits the crime scenes every few years, moves some stuff from one place to another.
12) I also think he stalked, but not in the more familiar way. I think he stalked over years sometimes. In other words, he may well have seen the Curriers in 2009 and filed them as possible targets in his mind. I think he revisited potential targets as well as sites of crimes and remains.
13) The crimes are not as random as they seem. He actually had about 5 U.S. "comfort zones" (NW, NE, California-Nevada-Arizona-Texas area, Wyoming, Indiana). I believe that, within those areas, he had a set of places he visited when he was there.
14) Interesting that he used his own name to rent cars, motels, and post on online message boards.
15) The overall pattern has the feeling of some kind of board game or strategy game where you move things around according to a set of rules. I bet he had internal rules for how long he could keep, for example, jewelry, where he could burn it.
Remember how his original plan was to use the Curriers' car to rob several banks, return to Essex and park the car, and then, on his way back through Burlington several days later, both torch the house and move the car *to the very place from which he had removed the cache with the guns that he used to abduct them*, which place he had cached the guns two years earlier, after killing someone else, probably in a place that was also associated with an earlier time.
What I'm getting at is, this is not "random" -- it's a complex, personal, and symbolic sort of layered geo-historical fetish sites.
Quick response to "seeing for the 1st time," above. I'm kind of thinking not, because this is directly before the Vermont trip murders in June 2011. IK's obsession at the time was with perfecting his silencer, and using it his upcoming trip "back east." Then he got too excited to wait, and thought about trying it out locally. But the places he lay in wait were bike rides from his house, and, after the episode where the cops showed up, he shelved the impulse for a week or so. I extrapolated that this might well be a time he was expected to be a "regular guy," hanging out with his gf at home prior to the trip to ostensibly visit family. He also stated (and i found credible) that it was only after the Vermont trip that murdering didn't have a calming effect for at least 6 months. Therefore, I believe he had not killed for at least 6 months prior to June 2011.
-------
Stuff I believe about potential victims based on all info available to me:
1) All victims will be low profile, with none having generated more than a day or 2 news story
2) All will be either missing persons or non-missed persons. In other words, we are not looking for victims whose bodies were found and known to be homicides. One victim was found and ruled an accident.
3) Bodies will be either weighted in very deep water or buried or burned in house fires that were not ruled arson. May be dismembered. All bodies will be skeletal at this point.
4) There is at least one man who was traveling alone, probably hiking. (this I extrapolated)
5) One body is in Crystal Lake in Washington State
6) None are friends or acquaintances of IK.
7) I extrapolate at least one woman traveling alone at night on a deserted rural road. Probably more than one, as he said (rough quote, from memory), "people are naive, they don't expect something like that to happen'"
8) Not all trips were kill trips. This is my opinion, but it looked to me as though the pattern involved trips to check on or move caches; trips to establish caches; trips to revisit bodies and sometimes move or destroy them; trips to bury souvenirs. Some trips were only bank robbery or only lurking around abandoned houses and "staking out" likely areas. The finding of good places and the staking out were a big part of the behavior, and I got the sense he liked choosing victims and then being thwarted and having the self-control to continue the hunt. He used the word "shopping" in two separate interviews. Shopping, i think, was almost as fun as "buying." I also think he liked the godlike power of knowing that, if he chose, this person would soon be dead, but was somehow saved by a small hitch, and would never know how lucky they were.
9) LE should look especially at people who disappeared in severely inclement weather. The 2 cases we know details of were on very stormy nights.
10) He leaves town the day after killing. That means that some trips (like the NO cruise) are "distancing trips." The travel is not to a crime location, but from one.
11) I believe a large part of the driving is both targeting and nostalgia. I think he revisits the crime scenes every few years, moves some stuff from one place to another.
12) I also think he stalked, but not in the more familiar way. I think he stalked over years sometimes. In other words, he may well have seen the Curriers in 2009 and filed them as possible targets in his mind. I think he revisited potential targets as well as sites of crimes and remains.
13) The crimes are not as random as they seem. He actually had about 5 U.S. "comfort zones" (NW, NE, California-Nevada-Arizona-Texas area, Wyoming, Indiana). I believe that, within those areas, he had a set of places he visited when he was there.
14) Interesting that he used his own name to rent cars, motels, and post on online message boards.
15) The overall pattern has the feeling of some kind of board game or strategy game where you move things around according to a set of rules. I bet he had internal rules for how long he could keep, for example, jewelry, where he could burn it.
Remember how his original plan was to use the Curriers' car to rob several banks, return to Essex and park the car, and then, on his way back through Burlington several days later, both torch the house and move the car *to the very place from which he had removed the cache with the guns that he used to abduct them*, which place he had cached the guns two years earlier, after killing someone else, probably in a place that was also associated with an earlier time.
What I'm getting at is, this is not "random" -- it's a complex, personal, and symbolic sort of layered geo-historical fetish sites.
neuronmisfire
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 1
Are you referring to Keyes or Nancy Grace. lol
:goodpost:
WOW! Great post! Great big welcome to the thread!!!!
I totally agree with the bolded statement.....as well as your entire post.
:welcome6:
neuronmisfire
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 1
I agree that it's not random. I think he had some logic aside from convenience in choosing victims. I also think his suicide note must be a coded message. I realize the FBI analysis says it is not, but it has so many different parts about seemingly unconnected things. Like retirement homes??? Is this about an elderly victim? The car crash stuff near a cemetery?? I don't know what it means, but think it must mean something.
trigger
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2009
- Messages
- 6,543
- Reaction score
- 114
neuronmisfire
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 1
But really... was that not the biggest waste of time ever. She's such a sensationalist <mod snip>. She got several facts straight up wrong. For instance... bank robbery in Arizona right before he was caught?!?!? Nope, it was Texas, Nancy. Oh and I love how she's like "we think he's killed dozens!!!!" Again, just trying to whip up a frenzy as if the story on its own isn't scary enough. Ugh I can't stand her. Then they pretty much they just played the video that everyone here has already seen.Well, anyway, hopefully it gets the story more out there so they can trace some of his other crimes.
Fascinating post. Completely agree with #12, and your last sentence is spot on...moo jmo
Welcome cynar, and great first thread post. Due to IK's military training, imo, he saw himself as a soldier on a perpetual mission. Many other predators prior that had military training and discipline, combined with other skills and life experiences had very similar MOs to IK. Gary Hilton & BTK are two that come to mind.. BTK stated that he enjoyed the stalk/hunt over the kill. They stalk their victims and instinctively know when to abort the mission.
http://www.adn.com/2012/12/03/2712275/suspected-serial-killer-israel.html#storylink=cpy
He told investigators he killed his first victim soon after being discharged from the Army, perhaps in 2001.
Keyes said he served in the Army from 1998 to 2000 and was stationed at Fort Lewis in Washington state, at Fort Hood in Texas and in Egypt. He lived in Washington state from 2001 to March 2007, then moved to Alaska.
Keyes said he served in the Army from 1998 to 2000 and was stationed at Fort Lewis in Washington state, at Fort Hood in Texas and in Egypt. He lived in Washington state from 2001 to March 2007, then moved to Alaska.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTK_Killer"]Dennis Rader - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
The 10 known murders are now believed to be the only murders that Rader is actually responsible for, although Wichita police are fairly certain that Rader stalked and researched a number of other potential future victims.
This includes one person who was saved when Rader called off his planned attack upon his arrival near the target's home owing to road construction, and the presence of road crews, near her home. In his police interview, Rader stated that "there are a lot of lucky people," meaning that he had thought about, and developed various levels of planning, to murder other victims.
All of his known crimes occurred in the state of Kansas. He collected items from the scenes of the murders he committed. He also intended to kill others, notably Anna Williams, 63, who in 1979 escaped death by returning home much later than he expected. Rader explained during his confession that he had become obsessed with Williams and was "absolutely livid" when she evaded him. Rader spent hours waiting in her home but became impatient and left when she did not return home from visiting friends.
Rader had stalked two women in the 1980s and one in the mid-1990s. They filed restraining orders against him and one moved away.
Rader also admitted in his interrogation that he was planning to kill again. He had even set a date, October 2004, and was stalking his intended victim
digndoodle
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2013
- Messages
- 417
- Reaction score
- 28
1) All victims will be low profile, with none having generated more than a day or 2 news story
====================================================================================
I disagree with the above statement, he told authorities that he loved when he did pick someone that got a lot of media attention, he stated he could not wait to get to a library or a few other places he went to pull up coverage of his victim, he also said to investigators he got almost as much high from following the coverage as he did killing, knowing (in his sick mind) that he had committed a perfect crime...and he also said he would go back often and see any new updates, often laugh at how bad LE was doing following certain leads and etc....MOO, I think he picked some victims just because most of the time they were very pretty, some I feel will be as you said someone he has stalked maybe a year or so..and I feel it may be as simple as him being fascinated with a person in some sick way, probably watching them, learning their daily and nightly routines and when the notion strikes him...I feel this is when he goes for his hit
14) Interesting that he used his own name to rent cars, motels, and post on online message boards.
================================================================================================
Keyes used many various names...when they 1st started his FB page (before Samantha was known to be dead) they found he had used Iz Keyes....Izzy Keyes...Izzy Reyes....Reyes, Izzy....Israel Reyes and there were more but I'm kinda brain dead tonight...LOL....and a lot of information was found by his other names he used..so he did not use him real name that much...I feel when he felt secure and BIG he used his real name...guess that was in somehow confidence to him..but when wanting to be mean, hiding things, I feel he used these other names....and MOO, this is perhaps why FBI is having trouble finding some vehicles and maybe rental car information, even flights is that he used other names
I agree with him being comfortable in these states.... because he has a lot of relatives in Calif. even he attended his grandmothers gatherings there...at one time his family lived in Indiana and he said he visited them there...and Keyes has 9 siblings, and from what I read and see on some sites..apparently they are spread over some of the states you named..and Texas...I'm not sure about....The reason he was on this trip was to attend his sisters wedding and the Church of Wells is located there, and he has 3 sisters there, 1 brother, mother and they church had only located there a short time before..it was located up northwards but it began to become too populated so they choose secluded land in Texas...I totally agree he probably had safe zones in all those states, but I have from the very start believed he was very familiar with some lower US States...One being Florida...He has relatives there and this I know personally....His known childhood friend lives near Daytona Florida and he has a cousin that is a Pastor of a Huge-Mega Church in Florida...I just feel he went to florida more than they have found so far....and they linked him to Alabama...I have not heard anyone even try to link his to possible victims there, maybe it was one of his scouting out trips.....and Belize???......he stayed a very long time there??? does he perhaps have family there, was he revisiting a crime, victims??? Why so long in Belize....and only recently one of his brothers has a photo where him and his GF were there..It was a creepy looking wooded area where he stated was their cabin while staying there...........but this right now is my biggie...WHY so long there in Belize...living is very costly and I just personally can't see him being still for that long of a period
Welcome and good posts
====================================================================================
I disagree with the above statement, he told authorities that he loved when he did pick someone that got a lot of media attention, he stated he could not wait to get to a library or a few other places he went to pull up coverage of his victim, he also said to investigators he got almost as much high from following the coverage as he did killing, knowing (in his sick mind) that he had committed a perfect crime...and he also said he would go back often and see any new updates, often laugh at how bad LE was doing following certain leads and etc....MOO, I think he picked some victims just because most of the time they were very pretty, some I feel will be as you said someone he has stalked maybe a year or so..and I feel it may be as simple as him being fascinated with a person in some sick way, probably watching them, learning their daily and nightly routines and when the notion strikes him...I feel this is when he goes for his hit
14) Interesting that he used his own name to rent cars, motels, and post on online message boards.
================================================================================================
Keyes used many various names...when they 1st started his FB page (before Samantha was known to be dead) they found he had used Iz Keyes....Izzy Keyes...Izzy Reyes....Reyes, Izzy....Israel Reyes and there were more but I'm kinda brain dead tonight...LOL....and a lot of information was found by his other names he used..so he did not use him real name that much...I feel when he felt secure and BIG he used his real name...guess that was in somehow confidence to him..but when wanting to be mean, hiding things, I feel he used these other names....and MOO, this is perhaps why FBI is having trouble finding some vehicles and maybe rental car information, even flights is that he used other names
I agree with him being comfortable in these states.... because he has a lot of relatives in Calif. even he attended his grandmothers gatherings there...at one time his family lived in Indiana and he said he visited them there...and Keyes has 9 siblings, and from what I read and see on some sites..apparently they are spread over some of the states you named..and Texas...I'm not sure about....The reason he was on this trip was to attend his sisters wedding and the Church of Wells is located there, and he has 3 sisters there, 1 brother, mother and they church had only located there a short time before..it was located up northwards but it began to become too populated so they choose secluded land in Texas...I totally agree he probably had safe zones in all those states, but I have from the very start believed he was very familiar with some lower US States...One being Florida...He has relatives there and this I know personally....His known childhood friend lives near Daytona Florida and he has a cousin that is a Pastor of a Huge-Mega Church in Florida...I just feel he went to florida more than they have found so far....and they linked him to Alabama...I have not heard anyone even try to link his to possible victims there, maybe it was one of his scouting out trips.....and Belize???......he stayed a very long time there??? does he perhaps have family there, was he revisiting a crime, victims??? Why so long in Belize....and only recently one of his brothers has a photo where him and his GF were there..It was a creepy looking wooded area where he stated was their cabin while staying there...........but this right now is my biggie...WHY so long there in Belize...living is very costly and I just personally can't see him being still for that long of a period
Welcome and good posts
Backwoods
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2006
- Messages
- 4,666
- Reaction score
- 111
But it could also be attributed just to his own, um, "special wiring" -- and the adrenaline of being "on the hunt".
neuronmisfire
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 1
Does anyone else find it curious that IK had "big issues with our country's foreign policy"? This was in the tapes... he had enough of a problem with it that he got into it with people online. Anyways, goes back to my theory that there was some sort of logic (in his own head) to who he picked and why he did what he did.
neuronmisfire
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 1
Sure, he had the skills I'm sure. But certainly the FBI would have recovered evidence of this on his computer.
SeeingForThe1stTime
Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 423
- Reaction score
- 2
WOW. I certainly can't argue with that!
I had also picked up the trend you mention in #10, and that played into my thinking on Madison Scott. However, I'm just going to defer to your research on this. *manages an awkward whisper thin 'nevermind' and backs out of the room* :blushing: ha!
Keep up the great posts!
SeeingForThe1stTime
Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 423
- Reaction score
- 2
It's so creepy to think that he may have been reading on threads here about people he killed that we have no idea he's connected to at all. Reminds me how scary the Internet can potentially be, particularly here, when someone starts getting close to the truth. Oh, holy.
BBM - in reference to the above bolded - that's a great point - I usually post on the McStay board - but your thoughts may be onto something - what Keye's did was monstrous - but what I have thought is that it's ashame that his family instead of disowning him didn't get him help - there are many things in the brain like dopamine imbalanaces and other aspects in the adrenal glands that could have assisted Israel Keye's with his actions - I'm sure his military training didn't help - but just saying that maybe if he had gotten some kind of testing done he could have been saved and led a better life - :just my two cents: for the morning - but I do think what he did was monstrous - just saying it's ashame he didn't get help before he got to where he got because he could have led a happy life with his daughter and watched her grow up - and I am in no way defending what he did - just some thoughts
From my observations of patterns/common denominators while researching sexual predators & psychopathic serial killers from the 1970s to the present.
There seems to be the common denominator of drug abuse, and specifically methamphetamine use/abuse.
From Pastors to Politicians, seems no one is excluded. Meth seems to be the catalyst for psychopaths to act out their fantasies, and create new psychopathic tendencies in otherwise normal personalities..
Just my opinion and observations..
A very good read about meth and psychopathic personalities:
Blame the brain: Psychopaths are wired differently
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/science-scope/blame-the-brain-psychopaths-are-wired-differently/632
<sniped & BBM>
The same reward system in the brain that hooks people to drugs might also explain why some people act like psychopaths.
We know that cold-blooded criminals lack empathy and fear — and are, by societal standards, a bit odd. But new research shows that it is not the traits that psychopaths lack that make them behave badly, it’s the traits that they do have. Not only are psychopaths impulsive, they like to take risks and seek out rewards.
So-called psychopathic traits have been linked to a disruption in the dopamine reward circuitry in the brain. And it is this disruption that drives psychopaths to want money, sex, or fame, in extreme ways.
_____________________
There's a lot more to it than that. Psycopaths (now often coyly
labelled sociopaths) are the only real persons, places, things, in
their world. The rest of us are figments of their imagination, in
effect, to be manipulated and used in anyway appropriate and
convenient to their needs. If they believe it to be ultimately useful
to their purposes to be kind and generous and considerate towards
someone, they will -- without limit, if helpful to their ends -- or
if they believe it to be more convenient to destroy someone, they
will. There is no such thing as truth or lies external to them --
which explains why such persons can readily pass lie detector tests,
for example.
A quasi-religious psychiatrist I knew said they were born without
souls. A philosopher long ago came to literally believe that there
are people in this world who are actually not really human beings,
but who absolutely emulate the real thing and are basically
impossible to recognize as non-human. I think he was trying to
explain the psychopath.
- Status