Recovered/Located AL - Casey White, prisoner, & Vicky Sue White (Deceased), CO w/sher office, Lauderdale, 29 Apr'22 *Reward* #7

Puzzles8

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SMK777

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BeginnerSleuther

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I don’t know if anyone was reliably diagnosed with schizophrenia, or had been prescribed long acting antipsychotic depot injections, or oral antipsychotics.

I totally agree that the majority of people with schizophrenia will relapse very badly if they stop taking the prescribed antipsychotic medication (after a period of time), and that subsequent control of the illness with restarted medication will be much more difficult, over the longer term. That is putting it mildly.

Psychiatrists researching ‘the schizophrenias’, have long thought (for twenty years or so at least) that maybe 20% of patients could stop their medication, but they had no idea of which patients would be in this group. It was not seen as clinically worth the risk of stopping the medication ‘to see how the patients fared’, because the longer term adverse effects on 80% of patients would be so dreadful.

At one time, not so long before this, it was thought a good idea for patients to have ‘drug holidays’ from antipsychotic medication, but this did not work out well.

The article that I have linked from Denmark seems to suggest that a higher percentage of people diagnosed with schizophrenia might, after some time, be able to cope without taking antipsychotic medication. I think that many psychiatrists will view this with extreme caution.

I think that the research shows, as has already been stated, that schizophrenia is a biological illness, and, just as people with Type 1 diabetes need insulin, people diagnosed with schizophrenia need antipsychotic medication.

I am not qualified to explain why some people can stop the antipsychotic medication without having a relapse.

I know that psychiatrists have discussed this phenomenon, stating that we don’t know everything about the brain. Maybe some patients never really had schizophrenia, perhaps their diagnosis was more akin to something like a schizophreniform psychosis. Some opine we should more correctly speak of ‘the schizophrenias’.

I would never advise a person diagnosed with any psychosis to stop their prescribed medication as, (in my opinion), the result is likely not worth the risk.

Psychosis is a tricky beast. Many seem to want to diagnose all psychosis as schizophrenia, but that is simply not the case. Schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder have very specific criteria that need to be met. Schizophreniform also has very specific criteria, the differentiating criterion being time frame (schizophreniform resolves prior to 6 months, usually spontaneously). Then there are the personality disorders that share features with schizophrenia (a delusional personality disordered person may have delusions or a schizotypal personality may believe in magical things or a schizoid personality may have the "autistic" features of schizophrenia like withdrawal from the world), but by definition, they are not schizophrenia. Then you have the cases that apply to a lot of criminals - the substance-induced psychosis. Someone using cocaine can easily have delusions, paranoia, and hallucinations. Finally, you have malingerers, those who say they're psychotic for secondary gain, sometimes it's because they're homeless and need admission to a psych ward or because they like Seroquel or other antipsychotics and want a script.

True schizophrenia is a very serious illness. And you're right, most psychiatrists would not advise stopping the med unless it was after a first break or a lengthy period of remission with the drugs. Even then, you're taking a huge risk and liability.
 

LostOldUserName

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Psychosis is a tricky beast. Many seem to want to diagnose all psychosis as schizophrenia, but that is simply not the case. Schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder have very specific criteria that need to be met. Schizophreniform also has very specific criteria, the differentiating criterion being time frame (schizophreniform resolves prior to 6 months, usually spontaneously). Then there are the personality disorders that share features with schizophrenia (a delusional personality disordered person may have delusions or a schizotypal personality may believe in magical things or a schizoid personality may have the "autistic" features of schizophrenia like withdrawal from the world), but by definition, they are not schizophrenia. Then you have the cases that apply to a lot of criminals - the substance-induced psychosis. Someone using cocaine can easily have delusions, paranoia, and hallucinations. Finally, you have malingerers, those who say they're psychotic for secondary gain, sometimes it's because they're homeless and need admission to a psych ward or because they like Seroquel or other antipsychotics and want a script.

True schizophrenia is a very serious illness. And you're right, most psychiatrists would not advise stopping the med unless it was after a first break or a lengthy period of remission with the drugs. Even then, you're taking a huge risk and liability.
Since you are a verified doc, if someone was to stop their psych meds cold turkey, how soon could symptoms return?
 

BeginnerSleuther

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Since you are a verified doc, if someone was to stop their psych meds cold turkey, how soon could symptoms return?

That's illness dependent. Say he has schizophrenia. It would depend entirely on the person, their environment, and their disease trajectory. For some, it would take only a week. For others, if they've been compliant and symptoms are in remission, it could take several months. But again, that's dependent on the right diagnosis. Schizophrenia, like most other things, is variable person to person. Some have very early onset symptoms (early teens or younger, though the latter is controversial). For these people, their disease burden tends to be higher so their clinical prognosis doesn't tend to be as good. Others are triggered by THC or other drugs. They may have underlying psychotic disorder that emerges with drug use. They tend to do better if they avoid the drug, though they usually need meds still. Others don't have an underlying illness, but the symptoms are the result of drugs. Obviously, those people will be fine if they abstain from drugs and alcohol.

Also, some are on long-acting injectables, but I'm not sure correctional facilities have LAIs on formulary. I believe they use oral meds, though I can't speak for all prisons/jails.
 

SteveP

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So it seems now that the pair did, in fact, leave the jail together three days before the escape. It seems the sheriff misspoke when he said there was no evidence they had ever left the jail before the incident. JMO

 

kaen

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So it seems now that the pair did, in fact, leave the jail together three days before the escape. It seems the sheriff misspoke when he said there was no evidence they had ever left the jail before the incident. JMO


One more inconsistency and one more example of how this place was not run properly. It is time for a major overhaul there.
 

2.curious

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The brother of a slain Sheffield police officer says there was another side to former Lauderdale County jail supervisor Vicky White other than what was portrayed on the news while she was on the run with capital murder suspect Casey White.



The Lauderdale County District Attorney’s Office posted this: “Rest in Peace Vicky White. I choose not to judge her on the worst decision she ever made in her life.”
 

Arkay

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So it seems now that the pair did, in fact, leave the jail together three days before the escape. It seems the sheriff misspoke when he said there was no evidence they had ever left the jail before the incident. JMO


"It Seems the Sheriff Misspoke" should be the title of a chapter in the inevitable book(s) written about this case.

While IMO the fault is all Casey's and Vicky's, if procedures were not so lackluster in that jail they would never have been able to manage it.

I respect that the sheriff has 50 years in LE and he must have done some good during that time. But he seems to have no grasp of what's been happening under his nose, so he's always misspeaking until someone updates him.

Jmo
 

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Over coffee this morning I very carefully read the complaint in United States v State of Alabama and Alabama Department of Corrections - https://www.justice.gov/crt/case-document/file/1415536/download - and have suddenly gained clarity into this case and why Casey White did the things he did and why Vicky White did the things she did. Questions that perplexed me from the beginning of this case are all answered in gruesome detail in the attached court complaint.

I now understand completely why Vicky White was willing to risk her life, and his, in order to get him out of there. I understand that some may disagree with me and say that this escape is solely Vicky White's personal responsibility, but a close read of the linked document actually makes the actions of both Casey White and Vicky White almost rational under the circumstances. I wouldn't leave a dog in such a dangerous, abusive and sick environment like that, much less a human being. I am appalled and ashamed that we are treating human beings like this and I feel ill after reading all that. IMO
 
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SMK777

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Over coffee this morning I very carefully read the complaint in United States v State of Alabama and Alabama Departments of Corrections - https://www.justice.gov/crt/case-document/file/1415536/download - and have suddenly gained clarity into this case and why Casey White did the things he did and why Vicky White did the things she did. Questions that perplexed me from the beginning of this case are all answered in gruesome detail in the attached court complaint.

I now understand completely why Vicky White was willing to risk her life, and his, in order to get him out of there. I understand that some may disagree with me and say that this escape is solely Vicky White's personal responsibility, but a close read of the linked document actually makes the actions of both Casey White and Vicky White almost rational under the circumstances. I wouldn't leave a dog in such a dangerous, abusive and sick environment like that, much less a human being. I am appalled and ashamed that we are treating human beings like this and I feel ill after reading all that. IMO
Thank you for posting this. I was skimming through the pages and saw enough to make me ill. If this was what CW was up against and what VW had witnessed, then I can understand anger at the system and a desire to get a loved one out by any means necessary. It’s an absolute disgrace and these are inhumane atrocities.
EDIT: Is the Lauderdale facility they fled from specifically mentioned in the criminal complaint ?
 

Peppery

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That's illness dependent. Say he has schizophrenia. It would depend entirely on the person, their environment, and their disease trajectory. For some, it would take only a week. For others, if they've been compliant and symptoms are in remission, it could take several months. But again, that's dependent on the right diagnosis. Schizophrenia, like most other things, is variable person to person. Some have very early onset symptoms (early teens or younger, though the latter is controversial). For these people, their disease burden tends to be higher so their clinical prognosis doesn't tend to be as good. Others are triggered by THC or other drugs. They may have underlying psychotic disorder that emerges with drug use. They tend to do better if they avoid the drug, though they usually need meds still. Others don't have an underlying illness, but the symptoms are the result of drugs. Obviously, those people will be fine if they abstain from drugs and alcohol.

Also, some are on long-acting injectables, but I'm not sure correctional facilities have LAIs on formulary. I believe they use oral meds, though I can't speak for all prisons/jails.
In your opinion, would an abrupt stop in taking many of those meds cause any serious side effects/withdrawal symptoms? At 11 days out would he be through the worst of the side effects?
 

CharlestonGal

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Thank you for posting this. I was skimming through the pages and saw enough to make me ill. If this was what CW was up against and what VW had witnessed, then I can understand anger at the system and a desire to get a loved one out by any means necessary. It’s an absolute disgrace and these are inhumane atrocities.
EDIT: Is the Lauderdale facility they fled from specifically mentioned in the criminal complaint ?
All of the charts and graphs in the complaint contain only the data on homicides, rapes, stabbings and beatings in the state prisons themselves and don't address anything that happens in the county jails. Which actually just makes all those numbers even more horrifying. IMO

ETA: For instance, the homicide rate in AL DOC is 7 times that of any other state prison system in the US.

ETA: I'm also looking for the case that led to this little gem: "U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson in 2017 ruled that Alabama's psychiatric care of state inmates is so "horrendously inadequate" that it violates the U.S. Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment."

ETA: Holy crap, it's 646 pages across 4 documents. I can't deal with all that, but if anyone else wants to have a go:
 
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SMK777

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All of the charts and graphs in the complaint contain only the data on homicides, rapes, stabbings and beatings in the state prisons themselves and don't address anything that happens in the county jails. Which actually just makes all those numbers even more horrifying. IMO

ETA: For instance, the homicide rate in AL DOC is 7 times that of any other state prison system in the US.
Yes, that’s horrifying.
 

Sundog

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Since Casey told his mom VW was going to get him out legally, I wonder if at the beginning the selling of house etc was to raise money for an attorney for Casey. Perhaps after consulting an attorney. And spending money on that, she was told there was very little chance of him getting out so the plane changed to breaking him out? Kind of a come hell or high-water she was getting him out. Maybe he was completely different when he is properly medicated and not high. The other thing that dawned on me , I wonder if she had illegally purchased his antipsyc meds that previous attorney said he was on. Former Attorney for Missing Murder Suspect Fears Ex-Client Might Attempt Suicide by Cop

I had similar thoughts, that perhaps her first avenue of choice was to explore legal representation to help get CW out but then learned it would not likely be successful.
 

SpanishInquisition

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Over coffee this morning I very carefully read the complaint in United States v State of Alabama and Alabama Department of Corrections - https://www.justice.gov/crt/case-document/file/1415536/download - and have suddenly gained clarity into this case and why Casey White did the things he did and why Vicky White did the things she did. Questions that perplexed me from the beginning of this case are all answered in gruesome detail in the attached court complaint.

I now understand completely why Vicky White was willing to risk her life, and his, in order to get him out of there. I understand that some may disagree with me and say that this escape is solely Vicky White's personal responsibility, but a close read of the linked document actually makes the actions of both Casey White and Vicky White almost rational under the circumstances. I wouldn't leave a dog in such a dangerous, abusive and sick environment like that, much less a human being. I am appalled and ashamed that we are treating human beings like this and I feel ill after reading all that. IMO

I've had that impression too since Sheriff Singleton said he was going to violate CW's civil rights once he got CW back in his custody. On one hand you've got bad conditions in Alabama DOC where apparently CW claimed to have made a false confession to get out of Alabama DOC then on the other hand if Sheriff Singleton in Lauderdale County was prone to discussing violating inmates civil rights, VW could have seen CW as a victim who was misunderstood and just needed proper medication and supervision, not that it excuses her actions.
 

SBurrus

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Over coffee this morning I very carefully read the complaint in United States v State of Alabama and Alabama Department of Corrections - https://www.justice.gov/crt/case-document/file/1415536/download - and have suddenly gained clarity into this case and why Casey White did the things he did and why Vicky White did the things she did. Questions that perplexed me from the beginning of this case are all answered in gruesome detail in the attached court complaint.

I now understand completely why Vicky White was willing to risk her life, and his, in order to get him out of there. I understand that some may disagree with me and say that this escape is solely Vicky White's personal responsibility, but a close read of the linked document actually makes the actions of both Casey White and Vicky White almost rational under the circumstances. I wouldn't leave a dog in such a dangerous, abusive and sick environment like that, much less a human being. I am appalled and ashamed that we are treating human beings like this and I feel ill after reading all that. IMO
That is a damning document for the Alabama Department of Corrections. My goodness!
 

LostOldUserName

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I've had that impression too since Sheriff Singleton said he was going to violate CW's civil rights once he got CW back in his custody. On one hand you've got bad conditions in Alabama DOC where apparently CW claimed to have made a false confession to get out of Alabama DOC then on the other hand if Sheriff Singleton in Lauderdale County was prone to discussing violating inmates civil rights, VW could have seen CW as a victim who was misunderstood and just needed proper medication and supervision, not that it excuses her actions.
Maybe played a part in VW decision to end it?
 

CharlestonGal

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I've had that impression too since Sheriff Singleton said he was going to violate CW's civil rights once he got CW back in his custody. On one hand you've got bad conditions in Alabama DOC where apparently CW claimed to have made a false confession to get out of Alabama DOC then on the other hand if Sheriff Singleton in Lauderdale County was prone to discussing violating inmates civil rights, VW could have seen CW as a victim who was misunderstood and just needed proper medication and supervision, not that it excuses her actions.
Frankly, I think everyone currently in the custody of the AL DOC is in dire need of care, supervision and safety. All of them. In my opinion, when the state takes custody of someone, whether that is a child through CPS, an inmate through the courts, or a patient in a mental hospital the state is then required to provide proper care for that person. And it's evident through the court documents that I've previously linked that AL DOC is failing on every single measure of humane and responsible treatment for the people they've taken custody of.

It's now been five years since the court issued all kinds of injunctions and demands on the AL DOC, none of which they've complied with. In fact, the rates of everything - homicide, suicide, rape, assault - have done nothing but go UP in the last 5 years. I don't understand why it's taken the US Department of Justice this long to step in an attempt to wrest control from the AL DOC. It's about time, but that's 5 years too late, in my opinion.

If I were stuck in that barbaric system with no help or end in sight I might just escape too, or die trying. Or confess to a murder I didn't even commit.

It's a fair assumption that Vicky White knew how bad things were at Donaldson and the other state prisons, not just from Casey's accounts but also from the stories from all the other inmates who have been cycling through that system for years. She probably heard about it daily. And it's not like she could go out and advocate for prison reform in AL. They'd have fired her on the spot.

I don't agree with what Vicky White did and I am not advocating committing crimes to change the system. But I have come to an uncomfortable understanding (not defense) of what happened here. And I understand Vicky's symbolic gesture of dropping her retirement paperwork on her way out. It was her way of officially saying, "I'm done with you people and your system."

All my own humble opinion.
 
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SMK777

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Frankly, I think everyone in the custody of the AL DOC is in dire need of care, supervision and safety. All of them. In my opinion, when the state takes custody of someone, whether that is a child through CPS, an inmate through the courts, or a patient in a mental hospital the state is then required to provide proper care for that person. And it's evident through the court documents that I've previously linked that AL DOC is failing on every single measure of humane and responsible treatment for the people they've taken custody of.

It's now been five years since the court issued all kinds of injunctions and demands on the AL DOC, none of which they've complied with. In fact, the rates of everything - homicide, suicide, rape, assault - have done nothing but go UP in the last 5 years. I don't understand why it's taken the US Department of Justice this long to step in an attempt to wrest control from the AL DOC. It's about time, but that's 5 years too late, in my opinion.

If I were stuck in that barbaric system with no help or end in sight I might just escape too, or die trying. Or confess to a murder I didn't even commit.

It's a fair assumption that Vicky White knew how bad things were at Donaldson and the other state prisons, not just from Casey's accounts but also from the stories from all the other inmates who have been cycling through that system for years. She probably heard about it daily. And it's not like she could go out and advocate for prison reform in AL. They'd have fired her on the spot.

I don't agree with what Vicky White did and I am not advocating committing crimes to change the system. But I have come to an uncomfortable understanding (not defense) of what happened here. And I understand Vicky's symbolic gesture of dropping her retirement paperwork on her way out. It was her way of officially saying, "I'm done with you people and your system."

All my own humble opinion.
In agreement with all, 100%.
 
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