Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #5

[Mo Thuairim]

Has it been proven that AB refused a gun safety class or on set training? Asking because I have not read about that, is there a link for information about this?

The armourer claims so...

The actor Alec Baldwin ignored a request to attend "cross draw training" just days before he fatally shot a cinematographer on the set of "Rust," a new lawsuit filed by the film's armorer alleges.

(Also contains info on where the ammo came from)

Alec Baldwin ignored 'Rust' armorer's request to attend 'cross draw training' just days before the shooting, lawsuit says

The "Rust" armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, has sued the film's ammo supplier, alleging the company mixed live ammunition and dummy rounds.

www.insider.com

 

[Betty P]

In other words, the "buck" stopped with him. He was the "producer", meaning in charge of the hiring staff, supervision, everything. While he may have delegated jobs, in the end, making sure everything was done correctly...was his name on the paperwork.

Film producer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Listening to attorneys on tv this morning, charges for this type of accident are usually dealt with in civil court, not criminal, unless there was some egregious, malicious, chronic violation of standard practices. JMO, it would need to rise to a higher level - for example, obvious, repetitive acts by the defendant to undermine safe practices in a way in which they're aware there is a risk of someone being harmed.

I kind of agree. This sort of tragedy is usually handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one. Seldom do you see corporations, officers, etc. held to a criminal standard in the case of an accidental death. Involuntary manslaughter charges are often applied in cases like drunk driving accidents that result in the death of another. In those cases, the defendant is knowingly engaging in explicitly illegal behavior that puts other people at risk. JMO, that doesn't seem to apply to AB's case. IANAL.

OTOH, pursuing this as a criminal matter could set quite a precedent, lowering the bar for applying criminal charges against anyone using a firearm in a negligent manner, resulting in death. That could be a good thing in making gun owners, manufacturers and sellers more accountable.

 

[clearskies1]

Listening to attorneys on tv this morning, charges for this type of accident are usually dealt with in civil court, not criminal, unless there was some egregious, malicious, chronic violation of standard practices. JMO, it would need to rise to a higher level - for example, obvious, repetitive acts by the defendant to undermine safe practices in a way in which they're aware there is a risk of someone being harmed.

I kind of agree. This sort of tragedy is usually handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one. Seldom do you see corporations, officers, etc. held to a criminal standard in the case of an accidental death. Involuntary manslaughter charges are often applied in cases like drunk driving accidents that result in the death of another. In those cases, the defendant is knowingly engaging in explicitly illegal behavior that puts other people at risk. JMO, that doesn't seem to apply to AB's case. IANAL.

OTOH, pursuing this as a criminal matter could set quite a precedent, lowering the bar for applying criminal charges against anyone using a firearm in a negligent manner, resulting in death. That could be a good thing in making gun owners, manufacturers and sellers more accountable.

AB allegedly pointed a gun at a person and pulled the trigger. I'm not sure that's ok, even on a film set. JMO.

 

[Betty P]

AB allegedly pointed a gun at a person and pulled the trigger. I'm not sure that's ok, even on a film set. JMO.

I'm sorry you misunderstood my comment. No one said it was ok. I said that I agree with attorneys who say these kind of cases are usually handled in civil court, not criminal.

That said, I would see it as a positive if such a case set precedent in making it easier to bring criminal charges against people and companies who manufacture and sell guns used to kill people.

 

[clearskies1]

I'm sorry you misunderstood my comment. No one said it was ok. I said that I agree with attorneys who say these kind of cases are usually handled in civil court, not criminal.

That said, I would see it as a positive if such a case set precedent in making it easier to bring criminal charges against people and companies who manufacture and sell guns used to kill people.

I see it as positive when criminal charges are brought against people who engage in inherently dangerous behavior -- pointing a gun at someone and allegedly pulling the trigger. JMO.

 

[Chelly]

In New Mexico, involuntary manslaughter is a criminal charge.
See New Mexico First Judicial District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies statement and link below:

...Carmack-Altwies said “just because it’s an accident doesn’t mean that it’s not criminal.”

“Our involuntary manslaughter statute covers unintentional killings,” she said.

“Unintentional that means they didn’t mean to do it. They didn’t have the intent to kill. But it happened anyway, and it happened because of more than mere negligence… They didn’t exercise due caution or circumspection and that’s what happened here.”

Carmack-Altwies said there is “more than enough” evidence to support the charges and bring the case to trial.

Why Santa Fe district attorney decided to charge Alec Baldwin over 'Rust' shooting | CNN

Actor Alec Baldwin will be charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter in the fatal shooting of cinematographer  Halyna Hutchins on the set of the Western movie "Rust," as will the armorer who oversaw all weapons used in the production.

www.cnn.com

 

[MajorHoople]

Here's a video that you may find informative. This lawyer is knowledgable about firearm related matters.

How Much Trouble is Alec Baldwin Really In?

Washington Gun Law - Jan 20, 2023

 

[Chelly]

Carmack-Altwies told CNN the charges will send a clear message about safety at future productions in the state.

“In New Mexico, we want you to come here,” she said. “We want you to film movies but we want you to do it safely. And we certainly want to get justice for anyone that is a victim… We want to get justice for Halyna Hutchins.”

Why Santa Fe district attorney decided to charge Alec Baldwin over 'Rust' shooting | CNN

Actor Alec Baldwin will be charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter in the fatal shooting of cinematographer  Halyna Hutchins on the set of the Western movie "Rust," as will the armorer who oversaw all weapons used in the production.

www.cnn.com

 

[Which_pancake]

I can see how it would not really be fair to handle this situation criminally if the practice has historically been to handle it civilly. However, I sincerely hope that this causes the film industry to take a look at its practices and realize that there is no justification to allow any hint of actual danger enter into the production an entertainment product. The industry should use its creative skills to find a completely safe way to portray violence if they feel it is necessary to include in a movie. IMO

 

[mickey2942]

Listening to attorneys on tv this morning, charges for this type of accident are usually dealt with in civil court, not criminal, unless there was some egregious, malicious, chronic violation of standard practices. JMO, it would need to rise to a higher level - for example, obvious, repetitive acts by the defendant to undermine safe practices in a way in which they're aware there is a risk of someone being harmed.

I kind of agree. This sort of tragedy is usually handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one. Seldom do you see corporations, officers, etc. held to a criminal standard in the case of an accidental death. Involuntary manslaughter charges are often applied in cases like drunk driving accidents that result in the death of another. In those cases, the defendant is knowingly engaging in explicitly illegal behavior that puts other people at risk. JMO, that doesn't seem to apply to AB's case. IANAL.

OTOH, pursuing this as a criminal matter could set quite a precedent, lowering the bar for applying criminal charges against anyone using a firearm in a negligent manner, resulting in death. That could be a good thing in making gun owners, manufacturers and sellers more accountable.

I understand what you are saying, it is like opening a "Pandora's Box", to make a producer criminally liable for deaths occurring on a studio set. But, maybe they should be, if a producer makes a person perform a stunt that is extremely dangerous, and results in the death of the person, maybe it should be more than just cutting a check and moving on.

Maybe it is time to force all staff involved in making entertainment to be mindful of safety. Why do real guns need to be used? Why not a facsimile?

And AB, being not only the actor who pulled the trigger, but also involved in production decisions, is doubly responsible. I might have given him a pass, if he had just been an employee, and did what he was told by Halls. AB was basically Halls supervisor, not just an employee. He had the responsibility to ensure all safety protocols were maintained on the set, even if Halls did not.

 

[minazoe]

who in their right mind..on a movie set...with an armourer..with professionals and following instructions issued by others including the victim would imagine that there is an errant live round in the chamber? The DA has stated this does not matter..they don't care about it because they may never know...yet an actor's LIFE hangs in the balance..

this was an accident on a movie set. whatever AB did or did not do..he should not be spoken of as though he is a callous killer..he is a part of a horrible unspeakable accident...and to send him to jail because he didn't look into the chamber
is totally wrong. He has settled this case civilly and at great expense..

this is what insurance is for...and unless they can show malice or criminal forethought they should drop it as far as Alec is concerned,

He would not pull that trigger...I seriously doubt he did. I don't care about the FBI..these old antique guns are tricky biz.

mOO

 

[Ceska]

The armourer claims so...

The actor Alec Baldwin ignored a request to attend "cross draw training" just days before he fatally shot a cinematographer on the set of "Rust," a new lawsuit filed by the film's armorer alleges.

(Also contains info on where the ammo came from)

Alec Baldwin ignored 'Rust' armorer's request to attend 'cross draw training' just days before the shooting, lawsuit says

The "Rust" armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, has sued the film's ammo supplier, alleging the company mixed live ammunition and dummy rounds.

www.insider.com

The armorer..... I would say, after what all she has done, she cannot be trusted. She reportedly has a history of poor gun safety issues.

Who is Hannah Gutierrez-Reed? The 'Rust' armorer who will be charged with involuntary manslaughter alongside Alec Baldwin

Gutierrez-Reed and Baldwin no longer face a firearm enhancement charge as of February 2023, which decreases their potential sentences by five years.

www.insider.com

 

[PrairieWind]

I understand what you are saying, it is like opening a "Pandora's Box", to make a producer criminally liable for deaths occurring on a studio set. But, maybe they should be, if a producer makes a person perform a stunt that is extremely dangerous, and results in the death of the person, maybe it should be more than just cutting a check and moving on.

Maybe it is time to force all staff involved in making entertainment to be mindful of safety. Why do real guns need to be used? Why not a facsimile?

And AB, being not only the actor who pulled the trigger, but also involved in production decisions, is doubly responsible. I might have given him a pass, if he had just been an employee, and did what he was told by Halls. AB was basically Halls supervisor, not just an employee. He had the responsibility to ensure all safety protocols were maintained on the set, even if Halls did not.

If we are going to say that a producer, or other owner/boss is going to be criminally responsible for deaths on a work place, that is something that the legislature needs to decide. If the charges are based solely on AB pulling the trigger, I still think he was allowed to reasonably rely on the armorer and the director's assurance that gun was "cold."

 

[Ceska]

Like a few others have stated, and I agree, this should be a civil case, not a criminal case.

 

[clearskies1]

A different fact pattern. The Twilight Zone on set helicopter crash that killed Vic Morrow and two children. The director and four associates were charged with involuntary manslaughter and acquitted by a CA jury in 1987.

"In a quarter-hour discussion with reporters, the jurors said they voted to acquit because the prosecutor, Lea Purwin D'Agostino, who had presented 72 witnesses, had not proved that anyone could have foreseen the crash of the helicopter that killed the actor Vic Morrow, 53 years old, and two child actors, Myca Dinh Le, 7, and Renee Shinn Chen, 6, on July 23, 1982.

''In our minds, this was an unforeseeable accident,'' said the jury foreman, Lois M. Rogers. ''You don't prosecute for an unforeseeable accident.''

ALL 5 ACQUITTED IN 3 DEATHS ON FILM SET (Published 1987)

www.nytimes.com

I'm not sure you can say that the outcome was unforeseeable regarding Ms. Hutchins -- there were reportedly serious safety issues on the set, including gun safety issues. I'm ok with a jury deciding if there should be criminal responsibility. JMO.

 

[cocomod]

If we are going to say that a producer, or other owner/boss is going to be criminally responsible for deaths on a work place, that is something that the legislature needs to decide. If the charges are based solely on AB pulling the trigger, I still think he was allowed to reasonably rely on the armorer and the director's assurance that gun was "cold."

As always, thank you @PrairieWind for your expertise. It is very nice to have an attorney weighing in on these cases. It is hard when we sit here behind a computer with emotion. We have to look at the legal side to understand if/when it will stand up in court.

 

[RANCH]

If we are going to say that a producer, or other owner/boss is going to be criminally responsible for deaths on a work place, that is something that the legislature needs to decide. If the charges are based solely on AB pulling the trigger, I still think he was allowed to reasonably rely on the armorer and the director's assurance that gun was "cold."

AB is also blaming the victim, Halyna Hutchins, for telling him were to point the gun, essentially saying it's her fault she got shot.

Common sense tells me you don't take a deadly weapon, pull the hammer back to the firing position, and point it at another person. As a producer he should have insisted that a remote camera be used in all situations were a desired camera angle puts people in the line of fire.

“She's guiding me through how she wants me to hold the gun for this angle,” he said. “I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit.”

Alec Baldwin on 'Rust' shooting: 'Someone is responsible ... but I know it's not me'

Baldwin sat down with Stephanopoulos to sift through the series of events that led to Hutchins’ death.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Tbone144]

The armourer claims so...

The actor Alec Baldwin ignored a request to attend "cross draw training" just days before he fatally shot a cinematographer on the set of "Rust," a new lawsuit filed by the film's armorer alleges.

(Also contains info on where the ammo came from)

Alec Baldwin ignored 'Rust' armorer's request to attend 'cross draw training' just days before the shooting, lawsuit says

The "Rust" armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, has sued the film's ammo supplier, alleging the company mixed live ammunition and dummy rounds.

www.insider.com

If he hadn’t been properly trained to use the equipment, he shouldn’t have been allowed to use the equipment. If I’m not trained to drive the forklift at work, my employer won’t let me drive it and I’m certainly not going to hop on and wing it with risk of being fired.

If there was training and he didn’t attend then he shouldn’t have been allowed to handle the equipment. If there was training and he did attend (usually kept track of by sign-ins) then did he willfully ignore the training or was the training required inadequate? If there was no training then the employer is ultimately responsible.

Instead of “gun” insert any other piece of equipment that requires training to use; fork lift, fall protection system, chemical reactor. Either he was trained and didn’t follow the correct protocols and procedures, the protocols and procedures were flawed or there were no protocols and procedures in place.

 

[Marantz4250b]

AB says he didn't pull the trigger, FBI forensics said it can't be shot without pulling trigger.

Convince a jury that the trigger was pulled and it will make AB look like a liar trying to get out of liability.

Could help cause a jury to convict him. It looks to me.

My personal opinions aside as regards AB's handling of this and his attitude towards it (which I personally think are reprehensible), given the facts so far I think we may be going too far with the word "liar". Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he had the trigger depressed which makes his statement to the contrary utterly false, but a lie takes a positive decision to say something untrue. There is a small possibility - I do mean small - that he genuinely didn't realise it was pulled or simply doesn't remember it.

It's being very generous to him, though!

 

[10ofRods]

As far as I recall reading, the ammo came from a company which supplied her and a box containing dummy rounds and a few live rounds was recovered from the set. The implication being that, as far as she was aware, they were only dummy rounds supplied to her.

I'm not sure whether it's actually been mentioned as to whether she was the person who physically loaded the gun, though.

Either way, she certainly has some liability but I don't know what that may be in a criminal sense in NM.

Bottom line though is that AB fired the pistol. No one is an any doubt about that. He is an experienced actor and is also experienced in working with firearms. Personally, I wouldn't ever point a firearm at anyone for any reason unless I was protecting life and neither should he have done. I would certainly never do it with "dummy" ammo in it. Even if I had made them myself and then they'd gone from my reloading press direct to the gun I still wouldn't do it - my brain simply wouldn't allow me to do that.

Early on, the DA said they knew with certainty who loaded the gun, but didn't say who.

I assume it was Reed, as she is the one charged in the chain of negligence. Each person, as the Special Prosecutor said, had a duty to be safe while handling guns and ammo. Three people showed criminal negligence, according to the charges.