Another Person of interest - HOW?

[maya.morgen]

The 33 doctor visits were not from birth. I think they were for the last year of her life. She moved to Boulder at age 3, so she only had Dr.Beuf as her pediatrician for those 3 years.
It was the school nurse's records that were refused to police. I don't know if they "disappeared" or if it was the pediatrician's records that "disappeared".

I have always wondered about that.I've never heard anything like this.Such a small child going to the doctors so often.33 visits in one year?That's a LOT IMO.

 

[Camper]

Interesting input. I was always tuned into the apparent fact that JonBenet had gone to the school nurse two times, on two successive Monday's in December. IF something was bad enough to go see the nurse, surely it might have been bad enough to 'tell' mommy BEFORE she went to school THAT day, hmmm.

Here is a link that pretty much outlines the duties of an elementary school nurse, through an Adobe Link. http://education.vermont.gov/new/pdfdoc/pgm_health_ed/publications_resources/health_services/07_confidentiality.pdf

Not able to copy and paste information from the link. It pretty much states that the parent is the final person who can authorize giving info from the childs file to anyone. Further in the list of confidentiality is that info can be released upon Judicial order or with a subpoena.

I am guessing that the Grand Jury was not exposed to any of this information.

A school nurse is required to have a health record for 'every' student in the school.

I am also 'guessing' that the frantic call to Dr. B in December MAY have been because of the SECOND trip to the school nurse. There was nothing in the link I provided here that states what the school nurse would or should do IF IF the nurse suspects child abuse, OR lack of action pertaining to the child's 'health issue' that might have caused successive trips to the nurse and a call to the parents. Did the nurse call the home after the first trip, or the second trip OR what?

Perhaps some other sleuths here can find a link pertaining to Colorado practice.

Toltec, my mail box is cleared now.

.

 

[JMO8778]

good thought,I haven't read anything on if the nurse called home or not.I'd wondered if perhaps,since JB had prior abuse indications,if she had been bleeding or in pain,or both,at that time,and Patsy panicked.but you could be right,hadn't thought of that.
I've always wondered what that conversation consisted of,when JB said at the party that she didn't feel pretty.I think it was Ms McSanta that she was talking to(?),but Thomas surely can't reveal the whole conversation.I just can't imagine that was all that was said..surely Ms McS. would have asked her why,and q'd her further.I thought that,along w the nurse visits,were pretty good hints from him that something was amiss.(not to mention the dictionary opened to the word incest).

 

[BBB167893]

I am guessing that the Grand Jury was not exposed to any of this information.

Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Toltec]

According to Linda Hoffman Pugh...JonBenet was not wetting her bed prior to December.

JonBenet had a very tough schedule in December...pageants, Christmas parade, Christmas parties and the infamous performance for every grade in her school. And what's with the frantic calls by Patsy in December?

The most disturbing to me is the Monday morning visits to the school nurse. If JonBenet had a problem...like someone said, why not talk to Patsy?

Frantic calls to Doctor....trips to school nurse....wetting her bed....something was up and I believe it all adds up to sexual abuse.

 

[DeeDee249]

I always found it astounding that the school refused to cooperate by releasing JBR's records from the school nurse. One of their little students was brutally murdered! Why would they not do everything they could to help? It's sickening how many people were pressured by the DA and R lawyers into silence. I don't think the school HAD to go through the DA. But I imagine police would have needed a supoena to get the records and Hunter likely refused. Of course, the school could have simply handed over those records. Police only need a supoena if cooperation is not forthcoming.
There had to be something incriminating (the Rs) in those files.

 

[JMO8778]

According to Linda Hoffman Pugh...JonBenet was not wetting her bed prior to December.

JonBenet had a very tough schedule in December...pageants, Christmas parade, Christmas parties and the infamous performance for every grade in her school. And what's with the frantic calls by Patsy in December?

The most disturbing to me is the Monday morning visits to the school nurse. If JonBenet had a problem...like someone said, why not talk to Patsy?

Frantic calls to Doctor....trips to school nurse....wetting her bed....something was up and I believe it all adds up to sexual abuse.

indeed,and the weird hangup 911 call at the party on the 23rd (which SS answered via intercom when LE arrived,and didn't open the door)..same night JB was found crying and saying she didn't feel pretty.
also Dr Wecht says the chronic abuse,or at least one of those injuries,dates back about 72 hrs..about the time of the party.

 

[UKGuy]

indeed,and the weird hangup 911 call at the party on the 23rd (which SS answered via intercom when LE arrived,and didn't open the door)..same night JB was found crying and saying she didn't feel pretty.
also Dr Wecht says the chronic abuse,or at least one of those injuries,dates back about 72 hrs..about the time of the party.

JMO8778,
How can Dr Wecht be so specific, does he outline in detail his reasons for arriving at a 72 hrs timeline?

If consistent then that incident might be the forerunner for any disagreement JonBenet has with Patsy or John on the Wednesday, its SS involvement which is telling in my view, given they were eventually parked at their house, then the Stine's moved later, bizarre!



.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
How can Dr Wecht be so specific, does he outline in detail his reasons for arriving at a 72 hrs timeline?

I don't have my book on me right now,but from memory,yes,he does.Remember he's a trained professional with experience to know what to look for and to be able to interpret an autopsy report and lab results.And of course he'd seen it before.
Someone posted a link to part of his book here awhile back,I'll see if I can find it.

If consistent then that incident might be the forerunner for any disagreement JonBenet has with Patsy or John on the Wednesday, its SS involvement which is telling in my view, given they were eventually parked at their house, then the Stine's moved later, bizarre!



.

I think so,too,UK.I think things were just rapidly spiraling out of control the entire month of Dec..starting with JB being sexually abused,and Patsy being the one with the responsibility of trying to hide it,and get help from Dr Beuf at the same time for any resulting problems.
I wish I could find a better analogy,(and I mean nothing bad about JB of course)...but even if Patsy knew about any abuse going on,I think it got to the point she just couldn't handle it any more.I think it was as if she'd created a monster, something larger than life (sort of like Frankenstein),via the pageants and the sexualizing of JB,and then it got to where she wasn't able to deal with the results..someone who was now prettier and better than herself in a lot of ways,and someone who now had her husb's attention.I think that's what Thomas was indirectly referring to when he talked about Patsy being afraid the 'blond B**** down the st' would get JR.In Patsy's mind,she now had a blond in her own house who was getting his attention.(IMO).Something had to go.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
How can Dr Wecht be so specific, does he outline in detail his reasons for arriving at a 72 hrs timeline?





.

here's the link:


http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html

 

[UKGuy]

here's the link:


http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html

JMO8778,
Thanks for the link.

The most telling clue for Wecht was that the inflammation was "chronic." To a forensic pathologist that unequivocal term meant the inflammation was at least forty-eight to seventy-two hours old.

This appears to be an interpretation rather than a verbatim account? Still much of Wecht's analysis seems sound, the upper limit of 72 hours seemed a little arbitrary. Possibly the Haven page author was being conservative, since given what we know about JonBenet I would reckon any chronic abuse would predate the 72 hour limit, something I have factored into most of my discussions.

When several court documents were disclosed later, they would include an affidavit from Detective Linda Arndt swearing that Coroner Meyer had told her after the autopsy that JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina." Meyer had added "that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact."

Those emphasised phrases are imo is incontestable evidence of prior sexual molestation?

I disagree with Wecht on his Erotic Asphyxiation theory. The garrote construction, knotting and various artifacts such as JonBenet's hair and necklace not causing undue injury, seem to rule out EA as its primary purpose.

Also if Wecht is correct then, someone in the Ramsey household has an obvious penchant for EA, this must run continuously throughout their adult life. Burke is far too young to have encompassed the skills required in AEA, the early teenage years are when males indulge in this practise.

At the same location on the vaginal wall, Meyer also had found "... birefringent foreign material." That phrase referred to a substance that appeared under the microscope when exposed to polarized light and observed through a blue prism. Such material commonly contained silica, a component in lubricants such as talcum powder. Had a lubricated rubber glove been used by JonBenet's violator? Or had someone dusted her with talcum for natural purposes -- to soothe an irritated genital area -- or unnatural purposes -- to provide lubrication for an illicit entry into this child's vagina? Whatever the purpose, some foreign matter had been introduced into her vagina.

This interpretation is based on speculation since Coroner Meyer would know precisely what the birefringent foreign material was since its birefringent index would tell him of what material it was composed. Also in Steve Thomas' book he refers to the foreign material unequivecally as a splinter or cellulose. Its a no-brainer to assume that the remaining pieces of the paintbrush handle might have been tested to see if their refractive indices matched those of the foreign material? It's possible that the use of the term splinter was not precise since it could also refer to a solidified flake/sliver of congealed paint from the handle of the paintbrush, so the jury is still out on that one.

Wecht was aware that the Autopsy Report had been redacted. I wonder if this is why he never linked any birefringent foreign material to the missing piece of the paintbrush handle, also there are no remarks regarding any staging?

Note that someone deliberately redacted the likely source of the foreign material, since knowing it was birefringent and not expanding upon this in the Autopsy Report must mean it was concealment by minimal reporting. Why do that yet itemise JonBenet's vaginal injuries in terms that leave no doubt in another pathologists mind? Probably because the missing piece of the paintbrush was discovered inside JonBenet? That is why should the intruder clean the flashlight inside and out, yet elect to remove the missing piece of the paintbrush handle?


So it appears that JonBenet was being molested on a regular basis prior to her death. I reckon Patsy knew about that, as did other members of their extended family, hence the continuing silence. It was all part of the JonBenet franchise, the deal, they got pageants and cash, whilst others routinely photographed and abused JonBenet?

As per my theory JonBenet was killed to silence her, and her staging in the wine-cellar was intended to mask the acute molestation. The reasoning is simple, no intruder need fabricate any staging, it's redundant, since the intruder knows, the location of her corpse and injuries alone identify the nature of her death.


.

 

[LI_Mom]

I always found it astounding that the school refused to cooperate by releasing JBR's records from the school nurse. One of their little students was brutally murdered! Why would they not do everything they could to help? It's sickening how many people were pressured by the DA and R lawyers into silence. I don't think the school HAD to go through the DA. But I imagine police would have needed a supoena to get the records and Hunter likely refused. Of course, the school could have simply handed over those records. Police only need a supoena if cooperation is not forthcoming.
There had to be something incriminating (the Rs) in those files.

I never knew about the school not cooperating!

I have to say, some kids run to the school nurse at the drop of a hat.... tummy aches or minor boo boos..... the first years of school are stressful for some children. My own child did this & there was no abuse or problems..... just a nervous kid. Another reason that kids like visiting the nurse is that they can lie down for a while, use a private bathroom (as opposed to the public one that can be embarrassing for some) & maybe even get a small 'snack' as a means to soothe them & send them back to the classroom. Sometimes, they go there hoping the nurse will confirm they are 'sick' so their mothers can come pick them up! lol

BUT, I can't for the life of me explain why the school would NOT divulge the info unless it was damaging to the Ramsey defense. Very incriminating, imo.

 

[BBB167893]

I disagree with Wecht on his Erotic Asphyxiation theory. The garrote construction, knotting and various artifacts such as JonBenet's hair and necklace not causing undue injury, seem to rule out EA as its primary purpose.

I would agree. The way it was made would not facilitate EA.

So it appears that JonBenet was being molested on a regular basis prior to her death.

So it would seem.

I reckon Patsy knew about that, as did other members of their extended family, hence the continuing silence.

I wonder. But if she did know about it, maybe she came from a background where it was no big deal? This line of thought will take us to a dark place. I can sense it.

It was all part of the JonBenet franchise, the deal, they got pageants and cash, whilst others routinely photographed and abused JonBenet?

You think she was given to them as "favors" for winning? I just want to keep it straight.

As per my theory JonBenet was killed to silence her, and her staging in the wine-cellar was intended to mask the acute molestation. The reasoning is simple, no intruder need fabricate any staging, it's redundant, since the intruder knows, the location of her corpse and injuries alone identify the nature of her death.

Well said.

 

[Red Dragon]

A new low for JBR forums.

 

[BBB167893]

A new low for JBR forums.

Meaning what?

 

[UKGuy]

I would agree. The way it was made would not facilitate EA.



So it would seem.



I wonder. But if she did know about it, maybe she came from a background where it was no big deal? This line of thought will take us to a dark place. I can sense it.



You think she was given to them as "favors" for winning? I just want to keep it straight.



Well said.

SuperDave,

I wonder. But if she did know about it, maybe she came from a background where it was no big deal? This line of thought will take us to a dark place. I can sense it.

Yes probably no big deal at all. Her own pageant background demonstrates how normalized this lifestyle would have seemed to Patsy?

You think she was given to them as "favors" for winning? I just want to keep it straight.

No, not exactly, simply that there was a qid pro quo for funding JonBenet's pageant career. Nedra is on record stating JR made the cash and we spent it, so this loose understanding was more or less explicit.

JonBenet's Grand-parents promoted a pageant lifestyle, as did her mother, the Grand-parents continued to play a part in encouraging JonBenet's pageant career, with Don Paugh travelling to Boulder regularly to assist JonBenet in some manner. The videos that JonBenet watched reflected the Grand-parents taste in role models e.g. Shirley Temple.

Consider the photographs of JonBenet found in the basement, which both Patsy and John disowned. Do you reckon that these were ordinary domestic photographs, simply cute snapshots of JonBenet as she became older? Is so, then why did they generate a search warrant for *advertiser censored* at their other address? JonBenet's pageant lifestyle and someone's collection of photographs were not on trial, so they don't receive much attention. Yet like her prior chronic molestation they were part of her life leading up to her death.

Patsy had to know what was going on, she was organising everything. Don't forget her public defence of John. Then there was Nedra roped in as a chaperone, why did Patsy ever think JonBenet's father need be watched, and why did she think the public need made aware of her rationale? The simple answer is that she knew what was going on already, lets say turned a blind eye, but she probably had some kind of I never knew about it story ready in the event that the prior molestation became a serious issue.

That the Coroner reaches the conclusion of digital penetration and sexual contact, and that this is then repeated by other pathologists, citing prior molestation as the cause, must mean along with her acute vaginal injuries that we are dealing with a sexual homicide.

imo JonBenet was killed to silence her, her killer(s) did not want her talking about her prior abuse? Now this motive can be attributed to an intruder, but what intruder needs to stage a homicide in an obscure location, with JonBenet dead, all the intruder need do is flee the scene of the crime, and leave JonBenet's body in full view naked from the waist down, also any kidnapper would still remove JonBenet's body since that is ransomable, its a no-brainer to conclude that no intruder murdered JonBenet?

 

[sandraladeda]

A new low for JBR forums.

Meaning what?

I assume this refers to the insinuation that the sexual abuse of JBR was something known and accepted

"I reckon Patsy knew about that, as did other members of their extended family, hence the continuing silence"

If this is the meaning behind "a new low for JBR forums", I agree that there is not a shred of evidence that JBR's abuse was known and accepted or kept silent (other than by the abuser) In fact, imo, the fact that PR took JBR to the doctor repeatedly indicates to me that she had no idea of the abuse. I do not believe that, had she been aware of the abuse and was simply keeping silent about it, she would not then risk having Dr. B discover the abuse, which was a very real risk given the nature of the complaints of repeated infections in JBR.

To go one step further, if you believe the murder is connected to the abuse (which I do) then it is difficult to see PR as the abuser, given that she is the one who took JBR to the doctor. Therefore, imo, PR neither perpetrated the abuse, nor did she know about the abuse.

imo

 

[twinkiesmom]

I assume this refers to the insinuation that the sexual abuse of JBR was something known and accepted


If this is the meaning behind "a new low for JBR forums", I agree that there is not a shred of evidence that JBR's abuse was known and accepted or kept silent (other than by the abuser) In fact, imo, the fact that PR took JBR to the doctor repeatedly indicates to me that she had no idea of the abuse. I do not believe that, had she been aware of the abuse and was simply keeping silent about it, she would not then risk having Dr. B discover the abuse, which was a very real risk given the nature of the complaints of repeated infections in JBR.

To go one step further, if you believe the murder is connected to the abuse (which I do) then it is difficult to see PR as the abuser, given that she is the one who took JBR to the doctor. Therefore, imo, PR neither perpetrated the abuse, nor did she know about the abuse.

imo

There is a whole theory that this is a family of generational incest. The former Miss America who was an incest victim believes this is true of the Paugh-Ramseys. If this is such a family, there really are no secrets, just denial, and family members would have been aware on some level.

I do not think Patsy was afraid of Dr. Boeuf. She brought JBR in to him a multitude of times, and he never did a full vaginal exam. This is someone who gave Patsy sedatives after the crime....Dr. Feel Good.

My daughter had one suspected urinary tract infection (while she was in a pull-up at night), and the pediatrician told us if it happened again, there would be a full exam.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I disagree with Wecht on his Erotic Asphyxiation theory. The garrote construction, knotting and various artifacts such as JonBenet's hair and necklace not causing undue injury, seem to rule out EA as its primary purpose.

Also if Wecht is correct then, someone in the Ramsey household has an obvious penchant for EA, this must run continuously throughout their adult life. Burke is far too young to have encompassed the skills required in AEA, the early teenage years are when males indulge in this practise.

I think you could argue that the restraint portion of the garotte was staging...but the cord itself was embedded in her neck while she was alive...Wecht makes the case that she did suffer tremendously during this attack.

 

[RiverRat]

A new low for JBR forums.

Problem?