AR - Thomas Naramore, 18 mos, dies in hot car, Hot Springs, 24 July 2015

Margo/Mom

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I put my infant grandson in the front seat. It is rear facing, my airbag is disabled whilst he is on board and the seat is at it's furthest position back. I am in the UK and thought the rear seats were a recommendation (because of the airbag risk) not a law. At 7 months he already messes with the straps, and I prefer to keep him where I can see him.

I am mortified that this may be illegal, and am off to check immediately.

In the US it varies by state, I believe. UK may be completely different.
 

wendybtn

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:facepalm:

Being a juvenile court judge, the importance of him showing the best possible judgment with his own child, is overwhelming. I wonder where a father with a lesser job and lower socioeconomic status would be if his kid was found deceased in his 2001 Honda Odysseus in a worse neighborhood?
 

wendybtn

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That can be fixed by putting the car seat in a rear-facing position.

I think that the recommendations originally came from data produced from crash tests with dummies--even though such dramatic incidents often spur action on known data.

But what is known sometimes changes. The sleeping position of babies recommendations have changed several times in my lifetime--each changed spurred by learning new things.

I just wonder if down the road we might discover that there are factors other than crashes that impact our consideration of the best location for car seats.

I spent from birth to age 16 sitting in the back of my parents cars and they never forgot me even if I was hiding under the seat. The judge was doing something with somebody or some drug much more fun and less demanding than a 2 year old and his wife. And his kid is dead because of it.
 

CCmakes3

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I spent from birth to age 16 sitting in the back of my parents cars and they never forgot me even if I was hiding under the seat. The judge was doing something with somebody or some drug much more fun and less demanding than a 2 year old and his wife. And his kid is dead because of it.

Exactly. Its not like he was at work. He was in the place where he interacts with his child on a daily basis! At that age, they have toys, child-proofing devices, etc. in every room of the house. How could he possibly forget? I can't understand why anyone would buy any excuse he has to offer. It burns me up when ANYONE does this, but with this guy being a judge and doing it at home, I'm beside myself. There are always those who will call it a "tragic mistake" and say that "he's being punished enough." If that's how they feel, fine, but I don't see how a guy this dumb and careless can be trusted with anything of importance ever again. If he can make THIS "mistake," the worst of all possible mistakes, how responsible can he possibly be?
 

sloane7777

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To me driving to a neighbor means you need someone to verify that its a tragedy and have a witness to how upset you are, BEFORE LE is called , it always makes the person seem guilty .......I would think he would know that though.
 

Margo/Mom

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I spent from birth to age 16 sitting in the back of my parents cars and they never forgot me even if I was hiding under the seat. The judge was doing something with somebody or some drug much more fun and less demanding than a 2 year old and his wife. And his kid is dead because of it.

I don't know what happened. He, and others have made statements. We are awaiting a final coroner's report and a special investigator has been appointed. I don't feel a need to invent details to fill in possible motivations. More will be revealed, no doubt.
 

OneLove

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It would be interesting to know if any surveillance cameras in the neighborhood caught any movement from the house after he left to call 911. I mean why wouldn't he just run next door, or next door to that? odd.

I agree, the fact that he drove somewhere else to call 911 is very suspicious to me.

Reminds me of the way Cooper Harris's dad drove for a couple miles before noticing his child was now dead in the back seat, and then where he finally pulled over was odd to a lot of sleuthers too.
Do we know if this house was in a subdivision with other houses very nearby? Is it possible that the closest house was the one he drove to? Do we know he had cellphone reception at his house? - - Many homes in rural Arkansas are isolated and without cellphone reception. I have no idea about this case, but am wondering.
 

Saltwithsavor

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The house is in a subdivision...nice one....many doctor's offices and a hospital about 2 minutes away. I went there last week after my chemo.
 

CCmakes3

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Do we know if this house was in a subdivision with other houses very nearby? Is it possible that the closest house was the one he drove to? Do we know he had cellphone reception at his house? - - Many homes in rural Arkansas are isolated and without cellphone reception. I have no idea about this case, but am wondering.

The house is in a subdivision...nice one....many doctor's offices and a hospital about 2 minutes away. I went there last week after my chemo.

Yup. I read in one article that the ambulance responded to the intersection of James St. and Fairoaks Place, so I searched it on Google maps. It is a fairly typical subdivision with houses pretty close together. I tried to take a screen shot but my iPad crashed from the effort and won't boot up again. The only device I have left is my phone, so forgive me if I don't try to post a screen shot! :(
 

Always Amazed

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I have hesitated many times to post to this thread (or others concerning hot car deaths). I do not have children. However, I have transported children in my lifetime, I live in a neighborhood with lots of children, I lock my vehicle up precisely because I don't want to find a dead child in it some day. I have tried to come up with every scenario imaginable to be able to excuse these "parents/caregivers" actions and I just can't.

The other afternoon my vehicle was in the driveway for maybe an hour, locked up (because, ya know the neighbor kids). I got into it and drove it the maybe 20 feet into my garage. In that little bit of time I was SO hot, already felt sick and I WILL NEVER, EVER be able to excuse someone leaving their child/dog or senior in a hot car.

I'm actually beginning to think this will become quite common-place, the more people get away with it, and be an easy avenue for sick, twisted, lazy individuals to do away with the people and pets they no longer want.

I also have a feeling that if it was ME who was transporting a child, and not a parent, who left a child in a vehicle to die, I would be incarcerated, convicted and most likely have a civil suit brought against me as well.

ALL of this is My Opinion.
 

Margo/Mom

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I have hesitated many times to post to this thread (or others concerning hot car deaths). I do not have children. However, I have transported children in my lifetime, I live in a neighborhood with lots of children, I lock my vehicle up precisely because I don't want to find a dead child in it some day. I have tried to come up with every scenario imaginable to be able to excuse these "parents/caregivers" actions and I just can't.

The other afternoon my vehicle was in the driveway for maybe an hour, locked up (because, ya know the neighbor kids). I got into it and drove it the maybe 20 feet into my garage. In that little bit of time I was SO hot, already felt sick and I WILL NEVER, EVER be able to excuse someone leaving their child/dog or senior in a hot car.

I'm actually beginning to think this will become quite common-place, the more people get away with it, and be an easy avenue for sick, twisted, lazy individuals to do away with the people and pets they no longer want.

I also have a feeling that if it was ME who was transporting a child, and not a parent, who left a child in a vehicle to die, I would be incarcerated, convicted and most likely have a civil suit brought against me as well.

ALL of this is My Opinion.

Regardless of any legal outcome, I don't know that we can fairly suppose that it is ever possible to "get away with" responsibility for the death of one's own child.

I don't want to speculate on what happened in this case--there are simply too many possibilities. I have read cases where one parent didn't realize that the other parent hadn't taken all of the kids and had left one in the car up through and including a case in which it looks like and intentional and premeditated act. I just find the speculation too painful, too accusatory and too easily overlooks the very real pain that we know at least one parent, if not both, must be dealing with.
 

CCmakes3

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If I forgot my child in a hot car and he died, I'm just not sure I could trust myself to remember anything at all, ever again. I certainly would never trust myself to transport a child again. If I could be that forgetful when it came to something that precious, I just wouldn't think it would be worth the risk. :(
 

MyBelle

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I totally get that. I also understand how people say "how could a parent forget their own child?!" But accidents do happen to exhausted, over stressed, over scheduled parents. I'm a SAHM with young children (under 5). I spend all day driving from grocery store to camp to dance to karate to play dates to grandmas to the doctor, I'm a personal toddler taxi. Sometimes I'm trying to simultaneously drag a screaming child and a napping child plus groceries and my diaper bag into the house on a scorching day with a ringing phone and barking dogs waiting at the window and only a few minutes to get everyone back into the car for the next thing. It's chaotic and busy.

There is no excuse but awful, tragic mistakes do happen. Knowingly Leaving your kid in the car so you can grocery shop in peace or get a pedicure is different, it's neglect.


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Seems to me the parent can set a schedule that isn't quite so chaotic. Especially so if the children are age five and under.

JMO
 

wendybtn

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I don't know what happened. He, and others have made statements. We are awaiting a final coroner's report and a special investigator has been appointed. I don't feel a need to invent details to fill in possible motivations. More will be revealed, no doubt.

I am not inventing details and claiming them as facts. I am interested in the details, too. But I cannot pretend or ignore what I know to be true of human nature. He may be a judge, but he is still a human man.
 

wendybtn

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Seems to me the parent can set a schedule that isn't quite so chaotic. Especially so if the children are age five and under.

JMO

Absolutely! The adult takes the responsibility of the child. You should not be so burned out and harassed you cannot take care of your kid. God gave us brains to be smarter than that. I know it is in vogue to "busy" all the time. But how happy is any family when the adults are so wrung out from outside commitments? Nothing is wrong with family first and eating together, but most people seem horrified at the thought of having any down time in their schedules. People will talk about you if all your kids are not in every activity and the parents are not at every meeting, charity, etc. But it really is okay to do what works for your family. I do feel sorry for these "neglected hot car kids" parents. But I don't necessarily think they are innocent.
 

bluesneakers

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I am not inventing details and claiming them as facts. I am interested in the details, too. But I cannot pretend or ignore what I know to be true of human nature. He may be a judge, but he is still a human man.

You said:

I spent from birth to age 16 sitting in the back of my parents cars and they never forgot me even if I was hiding under the seat. The judge was doing something with somebody or some drug much more fun and less demanding than a 2 year old and his wife. And his kid is dead because of it [bold mine].

To me that sounds like inventing details and claiming them as facts. Unless you know something about what he was doing that the rest of us don't. If that's the case, where did you get the information?
 

gitana1

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Sorry, I do not accept that claiming "I forgot" relieves one from culpability. If the child had been spotted in the car by someone passing by and they called 911, thankfully the child would be alive BUT the parent/caregiver would also experience legal repercussions:

(BBM)

"When Kim Brooks left her 4-year-old son in her car on a 75-degree day with the windows cracked while she made a quick trip into a store, she had no idea that a passerby would call the police. Her son was alright, but Brooks was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a child and was required to perform public service."

"Earlier this month a New York City fashion designer was accused of leaving her 1-year-old son in a car at a shopping center in Woodbury, New York. A shopper called security officers. According to a CBS 2 report, police said the designer admitted she intentionally left her child alone. She didn't seem to understand the consequences of what she had done, until her son was temporarily turned over to Child Protective Services. The boy was unharmed, but if convicted of endangering the welfare of a child, the designer could face up to one year in prison."

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/app-reminds-parents-of-kids-in-car-073114

The standard for prosecuting or not prosecuting shouldn't be dependent upon whether the child lives or not and, as we see in case-after-case, a parent fares far better legally if/when the child actually dies - this is wrong on so many levels!

MO ~

There's a difference - the parents in the examples you gave KNEW they were leaving their kids in the car. They did it on purpose. That's why they were prosecuted.

In most involuntary cases it's a balancing act - was the parent doing something like getting high? Dealing drugs? Drunk? History of neglect? Or abuse? Do they show appropriate remorse?

Those are the factors that typically go into deciding whether to prosecute a parent for accidentally leaving a kid in the car.

It is a most horrific death. And many people feel they could never do something like that (I;m one). So it is hard to not feel outrage.

Here are a couple articles about one such death that was not prosecuted, close to my home, that stayed with me. It was an absent-minded professor who left his much desired and planned for child (they tried in vitro for years), in the car. A combo of circumstances led to the tragedy:
Hirata: The week before Aug. 8 was very busy and tiring. Mikey had been sick earlier in the week, and I knew he was very tired that morning. I thought, Okay, he can take a nap at daycare.

Warschauer: I took him at the door, and I put him in the car seat. Usually Mikey made lots of sounds: "Da, da, da. Ma, ma, ma, ma." But that morning he must have fallen asleep. I must have been absorbed in thinking about work. Sometimes I go on automatic pilot as I concentrate on ideas. People always saw that as a strength. Of course it doesn't look like such a strength anymore. I was not mindful enough that morning.

Hirata: With office-related things or keys, Mark sometimes might forget. But with Mikey he was extremely careful.

Warschauer: At about 11:30 I went out for lunch. While I was walking back, I saw a crowd in the parking lot. I wondered what was going on.

I saw a baby lying on the ground. I got closer, and I saw it was Mikey. I was shocked. Then I got closer still, and I saw that the window on my car had been smashed in. That's when it all came together for me: "Oh my God, I must have left Mikey in the car!" The police said, "He's dead." It was like a knife in my heart. I screamed. I just collapsed on the ground, sobbing.http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20150644,00.html
The Irvine Police Department recommended that charges be filed.Deputy Dist. Atty. Matthew Murphy said he considered a count of involuntary manslaughter or child abuse. But he said he changed his mind after reviewing state law and similar cases across the country, finding that charges usually are not filed in cases where a parent with no history of abuse or negligence accidentally leaves a child behind.
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"Despite the feeling in our office about the tragic death of the child, the law in this area is very clear," Murphy said. "We cannot show [that the father demonstrated] conscious disregard for the safety of the child."
Other factors Murphy said he weighed included Warschauer's unquestionable love for his child, supported by dozens of witnesses and an Internet site devoted to the memory of his son, on which the professor takes full responsibility for his son's death and urges parents to be more cautious with their children.
Warschauer noted on the site that it took seven years and 14 in-vitro fertilizations to conceive his and wife Keiko Hirata's only child. Pictures show the family hugging and smiling in front of snow-capped mountains, in the swimming pool and Michael, whom they called Mikey, crawling and getting ready to take his first step. Oct. 2 would have been his first birthday.
Warschauer explained that his son was sleeping in a rear-facing car seat in the back seat. He said he was not concentrating and made a wrong turn at an intersection that led him straight to UC Irvine by habit, as he has done for 2 1/2 years.
And he said he had been up all night helping his wife with a project.

"I torture myself again and again as to how I could do such a thing," Warschauer wrote. "I got out of the car without remembering he was there ... and shattered all our dreams.... I accept 100% blame for this tragic accident."http://articles.latimes.com/2003/oct/04/local/me-hotcar4

Here is an article about how it is decided whether charges will be filed, around the country: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20013390/...mes-vary-when-kids-die-hot-cars/#.Vc-2tX0rPTo
 

MyBelle

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There's a difference - the parents in the examples you gave KNEW they were leaving their kids in the car. They did it on purpose. That's why they were prosecuted.

In most involuntary cases it's a balancing act - was the parent doing something like getting high? Dealing drugs? Drunk? History of neglect? Or abuse? Do they show appropriate remorse?

Those are the factors that typically go into deciding whether to prosecute a parent for accidentally leaving a kid in the car.

It is a most horrific death. And many people feel they could never do something like that (I;m one). So it is hard to not feel outrage.

Here are a couple articles about one such death that was not prosecuted, close to my home, that stayed with me. It was an absent-minded professor who left his much desired and planned for child (they tried in vitro for years), in the car. A combo of circumstances led to the tragedy:

Here is an article about how it is decided whether charges will be filed, around the country: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20013390/...mes-vary-when-kids-die-hot-cars/#.Vc-2tX0rPTo

Years ago, Kari Engholm was prosecuted because the distance involved was a few blocks in a very small town. I can almost understand how parents who have a long commute can go on auto pilot and start thinking about their busy day ahead but in Perry, Iowa, citizens weren't quite that understanding. She was found innocent by the judge who decided, yep, she just "forgot" her baby in a span of under two minutes.

JMO

Engholm, 35, an administrator at Dallas County Hospital, testified at her trial that she routinely took Clare to a baby sitter and then took her 3-year-old son, Eric, to a day care center.

On that day, she was running late and dropped her son off first. She then drove to the hospital and went to work, forgetting that her daughter was still in the minivan. She said she was preoccupied with some meetings coming up at work.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/distracted-mom-found-innocent/
 

CCmakes3

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If they are going to exonerate these parents, they should at least do it with the stipulation that they can no longer transport a child in their vehicle. If they can forget a child once, they can do it again. But I guess that would be terribly inconvenient. :(
 
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