Aug is Utah Cold Case month and the Utah Cold Case Coalition is featuring Rosie Tapia's case
Click on Rosie Tapia's Thread and help Websleuths find Rosie's killer

Are there any indications of a serial killer in these murders?

Discussion in 'Serial Killers' started by FleaSpirit, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This has been posted on another forum with more details if anyone is interested in following up.

    ~If someone with legal experience or an interest in false confessions would like to watch the videotape of the Esar Met confession they can pm or email me~
    Number of people who have watched the confession so far: 0

    ~Almost all of the information below is from newspaper accounts, the police report and similar sources~
    ~If you would like a link to the source of any facts listed just ask.~
    ~Things that involve speculation, such as indications that the killer is a law enforcement officer, are worded as speculation~

    Two murders in two years. In the same Salt Lake city neighborhood.

    Both victims very small children, ages 5 and 7.
    Both cases involved massive searches with hundreds of people and police conducting door to door searches.
    Both bodies were eventually found about 100 feet from where the children lived, in the basements of neighbors.
    Both involved extremely unusual acts of violence.

    [​IMG]

    Two people arrested.

    Both confessed.

    The first confession was obtained by a Mormon FBI agent who had a hunch the suspect, also Mormon, might be guilty. The FBI agent wrote a book called Heaven's Hammer in which he seems to imply 'god' wanted him to extract a confession. In his book, the FBI agent says he needed "to find the right theme to induce a confession".

    The suspect has an obvious personality disorder that would make him prone to giving a false confession but after 10 days the body of the victim was found in his, Craig Gregerson's, apartment. So was he guilty? Or was the body placed in his apartment by someone else? Initial reports say that police searched the buildings four times. Later reports are contradictory. Neighbors reported seeing Gregerson's wife around the house at the time but police claimed he lived alone.

    The FBI agent had videotaped the other interviews he conducted in the case but neglected to videotape the confession even though video equipment was in place. The language of the initial written confession Gregerson supposedly made is not consistent with other material Gregerson wrote. It contains legalistic expressions like "moment and opportunity" and "intention and purpose" that strongly suggest the words are not his.

    Later the prosecutor would indicate privately to other law enforcement personnel that there were problems with the confession. It is possible there were discrepancies between the confession and the evidence.

    In December 2006 Craig Gregerson pled guilty to murdering Destiny Norton, in order to avoid the death penalty.

    He was immediately sentenced to life without parole.

    About one year and four months after Gregerson pled guilty another child was killed less than a mile from the first.

    This one was solved quickly. The police obtained a confession within hours of finding the body.

    While the second suspect was in jail awaiting trial the FBI agent who obtained the 1st confession wrote odd diatribes against Muslims, which anyone can find on Google.

    ----

    The second confession, involving Esar Met, was videotaped.

    In May 2014 Esar Met was sentenced to life without parole for the 2008 killing of Hser Ner Moo.

    ----

    An abundance of evidence appears to support the likelihood that Esar Met is not guilty of the crime for which he was sentenced to life without parole.

    In addition to discrepancies involving lab reports on DNA evidence there is compelling evidence that the case was steered in a certain direction to limit the pool of suspects. In other words the purpose of the investigation was not to find the killer but rather to adjust the evidence so that Esar Met would appear guilty.

    For example the victim had microscopic traces of epithelial DNA under her nails. It seems likely that the killer's DNA would be among those traces. But instead of asking the lab to isolate each contributor of DNA, the lab was asked only to test for a few people, notably the suspect and family members. The suspect had horsed around with the victim in the time before the murder so his DNA under her nails, along with DNA from her family members, would not actually have evidentiary value. However the evidence was developed in such a way that it could be presented to a jury as appearing to be relevant to the murder.

    The most troubling aspect of the Hser Ner Moo case, and an unknown in the Destiny Norton case, involve time of death. Hser Ner Moo was found in a state of rigor mortis. The amount of time rigor mortis lasts depends on various factors. Generally children and old people enter and pass rigor mortis more quickly. In a warm setting it also comes and goes more quickly. The people living in the house were all tropical Asian refugees and the thermostat was probably set fairly warm. Also when someone struggles before death blood chemistry is affected in a way that may hasten rigor mortis.

    A central part of the police account of the case is that Hser Ner Moo died within an hour of disappearing.

    But 29 hours later, when her body was found, she was still in full rigor mortis according to the reports of the first medical people to examine the body. The forensics of the Jonbenet Ramsey case may be useful since that case was heavily studied by experts and the victims were of similar age, size etc.

    Esar Met is known to have left the house at roughly the time the child disappeared. The latest he could possibly have left was one hour after the disappearance. The implication is that she died some time after he left. At the trial the prosecutor tried to obscure this by suggesting that she was 'dying' when he left. But her injuries, including a blow to the chest that punctured her heart, strangulation, an arm snapped and bent at an unnatural angle, and others, are not consistent with her having survived long after the attack.

    Also the first people on the scene said there was a lot of blood. A child that size has a total blood volume between two and four liters. Even if she survived the hole in her heart, the strangulation, and other injuries, the blood loss would have been fatal within a short time. Even if you give the prosecution the benefit of any reasonable medical scenario, the victim was certainly dead within an hour of receiving those injuries. In other words the key question in determining guilt per time of death is when did she receive those injuries?

    Is the report from the medical examiner at trial helpful? He puts time of death in a range somewhere from 12 hours before she disappeared to 12 hours before she was found, i.e., 17 hours after disappearance. So no he is not helpful, despite having access to more detailed post mortem examination info. Nevertheless, if time of death was as the prosecution states, within an hour of disappearing, the body's post death transition through rigor mortis is an extreme statistical outlier.

    When police conducted their initial search of the apartment complex they talked to the residents of 34 of the 35 apartments and searched those apartments. At the 35th apartment no one seemed to be home so the police didn't search it.

    In fact the suspect Esar Met was miles away, at his aunt and uncle's house.

    But four people were in that apartment, along with Hser Ner Moo.

    What we don't know is whether she was still alive.

    [​IMG]


    Additionally, I have the confession he gave to the police shortly after he was arrested article and will pay someone who speaks that Burmese dialect/language to translate the interview. There is a translator in the video who is translating the conversation between the FBI agent and Esar Met but court comments by a Salt Lake detective suggest the translation is flawed.

    This original posts on this case are at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=638161.0 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=645898.0
     
  2. Loading...


  3. kemo

    kemo Active Member

    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    This is very interesting. I have been to Burma and am very familiar with the ethnic tensions there. Most of the people who lived in Haer's apt complex were Karin people. They are a minority group in Burma with their own language and culture. They have been involved in a long struggle for autonomy in Burma. Perhaps 25% are Christian, the rest are Buddhist. They have suffered
    Much discriminate and outright repression by the government but they are generally accepted by other ethnic groups in Burma and have not suffered from internecine violence.

    Muslims in Burma come from a number of ethnic groups. They are 5 to 10% of the population. They are mostly descendants of immigrants from India or Bangladesh. While the government has tried to force other ethnic groups to be more "Burmese", they have tried to force the Muslims to leave. Widespread ethnic violence has been directed against them. Often this violence is triggered by the claim that a Muslim has raped a Buddhist woman. If a Buddhist (or a Christian) were to kill a woman, a Muslim would be the perfect scapegoat.

    I do not know enough about the forensic evidence to say the guy is innocent but there may be more to this than meets the eye.
     
  4. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It is almost certain that the murder of Destiny Norton and Hser Ner Moo are related in some way.

    Your comment makes me wonder if maybe a roommate of Esar Met wanted to 'set him up' in an imitation of the Destiny Norton killing, which occured only 15 blocks away two years earlier.

    One of the roommates had arrived home earlier than the other three that day and the evidence does seem to be that she died well after Esar Met left.

    There were many mistakes made in the investigation of both cases. It is not right to cast suspicion on a roommate without some evidence but the police apparently were not too concerned with evidence. They had been roundly criticized in the Destiny Norton case when the body turned up in a place they had already searched. Also the governor and other influential people were weighing in on the Hser Ner Moo case publicly. The police were under pressure to catch someone quickly and they did. There is still quite a bit of evidence, notably dna, that has not been properly examined.
     
  5. kemo

    kemo Active Member

    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I've been reading the site esarmet.com. My initial impression is that you have to be real unlucky to have someone's blood on your clothing and your DNA under their fingernails and then have that person turn up dead in your apartment.

    What kind of evidence did the defense provide that Esar and the child had been "horsing around"?

    I'm a little confused about the crime scene. It is very rare for an apartment to have a basement. Am I correct to assume that the only entrance to Esar's apartment was through the upstairs apartment where the 4 other men lived?
     
  6. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is really interesting. I have an interest in false confessions and the way they're obtained, so will happily take a look at the video if you like.

    I think I will have to do a ton more reading before I can venture any thoughts at all on this. But thanks for bringing the cases to this forum and laying out your take on it and all that information so thoroughly and concisely.
     
  7. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The confession will boggle you. Even if there were no other evidence the confession is absurd. The accused gives inaccurate accounts that don't match the evidence and the fbi agent tells him he is getting close, then helps him realign events so they suit the evidence.

    I have to convert the video to a smaller format so I can upload it and will do that soon. Parts of the video have triggers that might make it unsuitable for people who have had certain experiences so the unedited full video should not be on youtube.

    It is always posdible anyone could be guilty of anything but this case is highly suspect.
     
  8. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    addressing kemo's comment
    Here is what was known the day before the murder. In other words if you went to the apartment complex before the murder occurred you would learn this. This is from public articles about trial testimony.

    1) Hser Ner Moo and her friends used to horse around with Esar Met, including something Burmese call 'elephant rides' which is the equivalent of a piggyback ride or whatever people in your area call it. A child holds onto the back of a bigger child or an adult as the bigger person runs around.

    2) Hser Ner Moo had a cut on her finger in the days before the murder and might or might not have had a bloody nose.

    After the murder the technician noted that there were four small blood stains on the back of Esar Met's jacket. The crime scene and body were very bloody and the killer would have been covered in blood. The four drops on the back of his jacket were arranged in a linear pattern, i.e., probably from gravity.

    As for 'evidence' they had horsed around, nobody disputes that. People reliably testified about it. The prosecutor suggests it was part of a grooming behavior so that he could later do something else. Met's age and birthdate are unknown so he was given a guesstimate age by the system. He has a history of sexual relationships with older adult women but not children nor any other peculiarities.

    The child had the dna from various people under her fingernails. For some reason the lab was not asked to identify all of the people, only to find out if there was dna from Met, roommates and family members. The samples found included microscopic traces from Met and her family.

    I'm not too sure about the layout. I think living area upstairs where four Burmese Christians lived, a common area on ground floor with a television set and a basement where Met stayed. The apartment seems to have only one door and testimony was given that it was usually left unlocked except when no one was home. All of the inhabitants had lived in refugee camps where minor thefts are common and the apartment did have substantial traffic from acquaintances.

    The important point about your dna comment is that the prosecution presented the evidence innaccurately so it could be used to convict, and the defense did not push back. You might read the additional comments I made about the fbi confession of Gregerson in the first murder re the wording of the confession and note that Gregerson's other questionable confession in fact appears to have been written by his defense attorney then delivered as spoken words.

    The same person who served as Gregerson's attorney also served as Met's attorney and there is plenty of evidence that he worked a little to comfortably with the prosecution. I can see how this might be okay if there were evidence of guilt and a conviction were needed for an objective 'greater good' but that is not the case here. Rather again and again there is a pattern of a small group of men steering the case in such a way that Met is convicted.
     
  9. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here is a link to the first video http://esarmet.com/video%201.m4v
    It is slow transfering them to a format that is small enough to upload and the quality of this is not high.

    Keep in mind, just before the interview he had experienced what his lawyer called 'a rough takedown'. The police had called and said they were coming over. He said he would wait there which he did. But when the police arrived instead of knocking they kicked the door down and put a pistol in his face. At trial there was testimony that he got some cuts during this and later a nurse euggested some of the cuts could have been scratches from a child. According to the last version of the confession though the child lost consciousness, shook with convulsions and died though it's not really clear.

    Also keep in mind that the translator had just finished conducting some similar interviews and knew the details of the murder. He is obviously saying a lot more words than he is translating and it isn't clear what he is saying.

    At the hearing about the translating he said he never threatened Met but he did tell him something like 'if you don't confess it will take a long time'. At one point in the confession Met asks if he will be able to say goodby to his mother if they are going to kill him. That is not on this tape, one of the later ones.

    Also note that despite the vast problems with this confession it was the defense that asked that it be suppressed. The same defense lawyer who arranged the plea deal in the Destiny Norton murder. He tried to arrange for Met to take a plea but Met declined and the lawyer then suggested his client was being difficult to work with.
     
  10. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think you *should* post the whole video to Youtube. There's worse on there, and you could always post a bolded warning on it for people who might be triggered, then it's their choice to click play or not. I'm not sure how leaving parts out would be helpful to an accurate view of what went on, is all.

    Hopefully I'll get time to really dig into this all, sometime this weekend. If \there is evidence of LE and lawyer misconduct in obtaining a conviction, then it *should* be looked at hard.
     
  11. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here is another observation after watching the whole confession again.

    The second lawyer in the Esar Met case said she thought it was a case of innocent play followed by an accidental death. I made fun of that on the website because you don't accidentally rape and kill someone and do the kind of injuries the child had while you are playing.

    However that is what Esar Met essentially confessed to. During the confession he seems to be synthesizing a story based on things that did happen sometime in the past. The fbi agent would say "why did she come to your house that day" and eventually Met would say "to watch cartoons". He said he was watching something and she switched to cartoons, which probably did happen in the past though not on that day.

    He is willing to cook up anything the fbi agent wants him to say, but he refuses to even consider rape and obviously is not aware of the worst parts of the crime. He is willing to say he is responsible for her death, even though he has the death occuring in the wrong way, but he is not willing to put a rape into his story no matter how much he is pushed.

    So that lawyer probably did believe the confession. Further, in the police report there are a lot of problems with the dna evidence regarding the rape. Dna was found with a rape kit but it was "insufficient quality or quantity" to test. Long story short I think that lawyer, Denise Porter may have really believed that Esar Met killed the child. I don't think the rest of the prosecution team believe it.

    It was a high profile case with all sorts of criticism of police fresh in people's minds from the Destiny Norton case. The police needed someone quickly to give to the media as a suspect. The very last scene in the last video there is a guy coming into the room as the confession wraps up and he says "we need some photos asap and we have to get them printed".

    Also two people have said they would watch the videos but I cannot edit the first post in which I wanted to make sure at least a few people give their opinions. So that is stuck as "zero people have watched the confession so far".

    As for youtube there are some things said on the video that would not be legal to put on youtube, aside from the issue of someone accidentally watching it. I can silence the audio where necessary though.

    With regard to lawyer misconduct etc, the first issue is whether he is innocent or guilty. They have loads of dna they collected from the crime scene, including some from an unknown person mixed with her blood. She had yanked a handful of hair out of the killer. Why no mention of that nor of the fact that Esar Met was not missing a handfull of hair? The lawyer misconduct is entertaining but the issue is guilt or innocence.
     
  12. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have just watched this first video, twice through. I'll probably watch it a few more times and might have more to say after that, and I still need to catch up on the reading. I am not American, I only know the very basics of American law. But it seems to me the police begin the interview before this man is read his rights. Perhaps someone in law enforcement or with better knowledge of the law will explain if that's correct or not, but it seems to me he should have been read his rights before any conversation about the crime began.

    I see what you mean about the discrepancy between the length of what is spoken in Burmese, and what is said in English.

    I am somewhat confused about what the interpreter was doing there, if he is not an official interpreter. If I have it right (and I might not, some clarity on this would be good) - the interpreter is a local who wandered into the area of the crime scene? or was it the police station? looking for ways to "help". I don't understand in what capacity he was expecting to be able to "help" the police with their inquiries, but if I have it right, the police mistook him for an official interpreter and asked him to do the interview. This makes perfect sense of why this man is a terrible interpreter.

    The suspect's body language is withdrawn and tense, frankly he looks terrified, his posture is self=protective. I notice he picks up the photograph quickly when he drops it, and looks at it often. I may have some more things to say about this later.. But for now, I can say the suspect looks frightened, especially when the detective moves his chair right into Esar Met's space, crowding him and tapping the picture hard.

    The suspect is not familiar with the language or customs of America. He's been in the country, what - a month? And I don't know what the police are like in Burma, but the Burmese people I have known (who came here as political dissidents, after some troubles in Burma) had nothing good to say about police interrogations there. I have to wonder if this man was expecting to be harmed in some way, but I can't be sure of it. It did come to mind, however, as I watched his body language and the level of self-protection he exhibits.

    As I understand it so far, this interview was not permitted to be used in court - because it was faulty?

    It might take me some time to form any sort of opinion on guilt or innocence, I have hardly any information yet. I hope it's understood that I may end up not agreeing that Esar met is innocent.

    As for the lawyer - I don't understand what you mean by "entertaining", I am not here for entertainment and I m not attempting to entertain anyone. I was speaking to what you said, regarding the lawyer possibly being in collusion with police to ensure a guilty verdict, which (if I have got that right, sorry if I don't) is a very serious accusation, and I am not about to make a joke of it. What I was saying is that if this is so, then it needs to be examined for the sake of the case not being tainted, as well as a fair trial. But there'd have to be some pretty compelling evidence. If the lawyer was just a bad lawyer and failed his client in important ways, there could be grounds for a re-trial. But I'm speaking here withyout all the information, so I'll quit talking and start reading.

    Looking foward to further videos. perhaps some news articles about the case would be good too.
     
  13. Cracka*Jaxx

    Cracka*Jaxx Active Member

    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
    From the little I've read, things are not exactly adding up. Here are some thoughts and questions:

    If the victim was raped, was a dna test done to determine who raped her?

    Why did it take up to 10 minutes for one of 4 or 5 men to answer the door for police?

    So far I haven't seen any evidence against Esar Met, except that the victim's body was found in his bathroom.

    I can't understand the configuration of the living quarters. Did 5 men live in one, single apartment? Was it a basement apartment? Did they each have a separate room or did they share? How many people used the bathroom where the victim was found? Offhand, it doesn't seem reasonable that not one of the tenants would have noticed the victim.

    Did Met have any idea of how the victim wound up in his bathroom if he didn't kill her? Was it his personal bathroom? Did they all share one bathroom?

    Why didn't anyone find a competent interpreter in 6 years? Did we ever even hear an alibi or explanation?

    I'm wondering if several of the roommates could have had a hand in the murder. Maybe they were covering for one another. Maybe they pinned the crime on Met because he was the only one who wasn't there.

    It's certainly possible that a serial killer murdered both girls and is still at large.
     
  14. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Great questions, Cracka*Jaxx.


    Ah, I found that the translator came to offer the -parents- help and was swept along by police who thought he somebody official. Didn't they check for ID? Really?

    Just a few notes/links for future reference...

    Court docs
    http://www.abc4.com/media/lib/5/7/f/e/7fef2b72-2afe-4b5b-baf8-31003edf9426/Esar_Met_Information.pdf
    ---

    MARCH 31

    6:18 p.m.: A friend of the child's family notified police that she was missing

    APRIL 1

    9:40 a.m.: Amber Alert issued via broadcast media

    9:56 a.m.: Amber Alert issued to law enforcement


    All witnesses called to the stand Tuesday were law enforcers or paramedics. Former South Salt Lake police officer Jacob Burton was the most emotional on the stand, wiping away tears as he recalled meeting with Hser's mother for the first time, who was crying and asking for help finding her missing daughter. He said he knew right away this case was different.

    "I responded to a fair amount of calls similar to this in my career," he said. "Call it a gut feeling, call it a mother's reaction, it wasn't just a normal missing child that hadn't returned from school."

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28278057

    Nancy Grace and Marc Klaas lambast the cops for not issuing an Amber Alert. It's pretty awkward, watching the police chief try to navigate that:

    MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, first of all, it`s unconscionable that in a community where a high-profile missing person seems to be an annual rite of passage, that they would take a situation where a little girl who was a stranger in a strange land, doesn`t have a lot of friends, they would wait 19 hours to activate an Amber Alert. This little girl had asthma. It was cold at night. She didn`t have a lot of friends. She was very young. She had very limited language skills.

    They should have activated that Amber Alert almost immediately, and then they should have done an investigation that starts from the center and works its way out, and that would include searching all of the residences within that apartment complex, including the residence where that young man lived who apparently kidnapped and did whatever he did before he murdered that little girl. It`s absolutely unconscionable this action was not followed!

    http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/02/ng.01.html

    --
    The apartment has three levels. It's believed the suspect lived in the basement, and that the other four roommates never went there. The roommates were questioned and released.

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=2989692

    From what I am gathering, the apt complex was large - 100 apartments - and housed recent refugees. Met was assigned this basement apartment in the relocation process. The men upstairs were all Christians, Met is a Muslim of Indian heritage, and from what I'm reading he wasn't too welcome (one report says "shunned", link below ) and his presence there created tension in the apartment block community.



    --

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542689/Esar-Met-guilty-killing-Hser-Ner-Moo-7.html

    **warning: crime scene pics. ^^ (don't those finger marks look very small..)

    Apparently Met and little Hser Ner Moo and her parents had been on opposite sides of a refugee camp in Thailand - my guess is the camp was divided by religion, to avoid conflict. Muslims and Christians in Burma don't mix and there's a deal of animosity between the cultures. So why'd the stick a non-English speaking Muslim below an apartment with a bunch of Christians in it? Kind of off topic, but it seems irresponsible to me.

    ---

    "Esar got along with everyone; he was friendly," argued defense attorney Michael Peterson. "Esar played in a friendly manner with Hser Ner Moo. They played chase, they played tag. Esar helped her learn how to ride a bike around the complex. ... Mr. Met never acted inappropriate."

    "None of [Met’s roommates] wanted to play with Hser Ner Moo, but the defendant did," prosecutor Matt Janzen said.

    ---

    Over the course of the afternoon, during which Hser Ner Moo's childhood best friend and her brother took the stand, prosecutors asked pointed questions about what kind of games the children would play with Met.

    Nane We, 15, recalled afternoons spent frolicking about the apartment complex with Hser Ner Moo. They would play tag and dig in the sandbox, she said. Sometimes, Met would give them rides on his back, pretending to be an elephant with a long trunk and a waddled walk as the girls giggled with delight.

    Nane We testified that Met never hurt her or Hser Ner Moo while they played. They were frequent guests in Met's home — an apartment he shared with four other men — but never entered Met's bedroom if they weren't searching for a place to hide in a game of hide and seek.

    Met never removed his clothes in the presence of the girls or "tickled them" inappropriately.

    "He took care of us and loved us, just like little sisters," Nane We said through a Burmese interpreter. "He helped me learn how to ride a bike, and he offered to teach Hser Ner Moo, too."

    Nane We's older brother, Maung Then Htank, who took the stand after her, said he had known Met from a refugee camp in Thailand where they both lived.

    Met had always had an affection for children, Htank said. He was playful and caring and would serve the kids ice cream.

    "The girls would be more than happy, they couldn't even wait [to play]," Htank testified through a Burmese interpreter. "When he played elephant, they would fight each other to get onto Esar's back."

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22958729

    Fire Captain Paul Rasmussen added that he was taken aback when he saw the amount of blood in the shower. He said that the girl's hair was thick with blood and that rigor mortis had already set in. Maurer added: 'I saw the girl in the bottom of the shower stall, curled up, face down, her head was away from us. I could see that (her left arm) was bent back, broken.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ped-beaten-death-neighbor-26-shown-trial.html

    The child's suffering likely didn't last more than an hour.

    But in that time, Utah's chief medical examiner testified Monday, Hser Ner Moo suffered more than a dozen "excruciating" injuries, including a fatal tear to the girl's heart.

    He walked an 11-person jury through each wound: bruises to the child's face, back and chest, internal bleeding from her skull and her heart, her lungs, kidney and pancreas were scraped and bruised, her left arm broken in two places.



    The wound to the girl's heart, a tear in its right atrium, was the most lethal.

    "This would have been excruciating pain," Grey said. "This was a homicide, a death due to an intentional action by another person."

    The child's face was bruised a deep purple, with a scratch on her left temple just above her eye. The girl's left forearm, which was broken in two places, was unnaturally bent at a near-right angle. Scratches and marks lined her chest, her back and her neck.

    --

    Frasier, who was called on to assist in evaluating Hser Ner Moo's injuries after the autopsy had been performed, focused her testimony heavily on damage to the child's genitals, which she said were extremely rare and likely caused by forceful penetration.

    No DNA evidence suggesting a sexual assault was found at the time of the girl's death and Met has not been charged with such a crime, but Frasier testified that doesn't mean one didn't take place.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57389261-78/met-moo-hser-ner.html.csp

    Nothing really explains how one of Hser Ner Moo’s tiny purple shoes landed in that filthy toilet in the basement, the other shoe falling behind and beneath the porcelain.

    http://trenthead.com/2014/01/elephant-rides/

    Delays in diagnosis can be deadly, because tears in the ascending aorta need emergency surgery. Some people die so quickly they never even make it to the hospital. Among those who do reach the hospital, if the condition is not diagnosed and treated within 48 hours, half will die.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/health/21aorta.html?_r=0

    Traumatic Aortic Rupture

    Indeed, nearly 90% of patients with aortic injuries die before they even get to the ER. Among those who have this injury and arrive alive at the hospital, 20-30% will die in the first six hours, 40-50% in the first 24 hours and 60-80% in the first week.

    http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/content/heart/art2030.html


    Frasier testified for an hour and a half, describing in detail the way Hser Ner Moo was injured, both through physical and sexual abuse. “She would have been in a lot of extreme pain before she died,” Frasier said.

    Frasier had examined Hser Ner Moo’s body after another doctor had performed an autopsy on the dead girl. She detailed the severe injuries Hser Ner Moo received from the rape. The Universe has decided not to print the graphic details from the testimony.

    “Injuries like this are very uncommon. We see thousands of children each year and we see about one like this a year. Injuries this bad are rare,” Frasier said.
    http://universe.byu.edu/2014/01/10/...se-to-girl-before-death/#sthash.ECoOqQeO.dpuf

    "In my opinion, this was a little girl who was badly beaten," Grey said. "The injuries I found in this case were severe."

    Frasier, who works at Primary Children's Medical Center, examined the body after the autopsy was completed to evaluate sexual injuries. She said the girl appeared to have been assaulted.

    "It's a rare injury. It's a lot of injury. ... Rarely do we see more injury than this," she said. "She would have cried. She would have resisted. She may have fought."

    Both doctors said the girl's injuries were inflicted before she died. Grey said he does not know how long the beating would have gone on.

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22958729

    Defense attorneys have maintained that Met is an innocent man whose four roommates may have been responsible for the girl's disappearance and death.

    His lawyers have pointed to the other men's seemingly indifferent behavior after the child's parents came to their door searching for the missing girl and a rift between the defendant and his roommates over ethnic differences.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57389261-78/met-moo-hser-ner.html.csp


    When police located Esar Met about 10 p.m. on April 1 at his aunt's Cottonwood Heights home, he tried to flee and had to be restrained, charging documents state.

    The aunt, Mi Cho, told police her nephew had arrived the day before about 3:30 or 4 p.m. She said he did not bring a change of clothes, but spent the night on the floor. She said he had never before spent the night at her home, according to the charges.

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8859775

    He said they tested numerous stains and found blood on the bathroom floor and sink, basement floor, west wall and on the handrail of the stairs.

    DNA testing showed two of the samples were a match for Hser, though one blood sample had a mix of DNA. Grundy said the major DNA profile came from the girl and the minor profile had no match, but excluded Met.

    Eight stains were found on the back of the jacket Met was wearing on March 31, 2008, and when he was arrested the next day. Four tested positive for human blood. A DNA test matched the blood to Hser.

    Grundy said only one of the stains were tested because the stains were in a linear pattern, suggesting they were from the same source.

    When asked by defense attorneys, Grundy admitted the stains could have come from rubbing up against a wall.

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22958729
     
  15. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Todd Grey, Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Utah, performed an autopsy on Destiny’s body on July 25, 2006. Dr Grey observed on her body consistent with post-mortem vaginal penetration. Dr Grey opined that the manner of Destiny’s death was homicide and that the cause of death was consistent with smothering.
    http://kutv.com/stories/local_file_208135731/

    Pertaining to the question of the title of this thread, and presumably the main purpose for it, I do not actually see a serial killer involved here. The two crimes do have several parellels, but the cause and manner of death are very, very different. Hser was so horrifically injured that I can barely imagine ANYone sustaining that much rage and desire to harm toward a small child without being foam-at-the-mouth psychotic. Her tiny body was an absolute ruin. In comparison, Destiny was smothered and raped after death, which is kind of not all that unusual for pedophile behaviour. I am not seeing the same kind of brutality and ferocity present in poor little Hser's murder. To me, they seem absolutely different apart from what are most likely coincidental parallels regarding location. And face it, a lot of people have basements. These children probably aren't the only murder victims to spend time in a basement in that region.

    Also, given that Gregerson did not mind raping a child's dead body, I am not surprised he kept her in a plastic tub that long, down there. I suspect he visited the body quite often. To put it nicely.
     
  16. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here are some comments regarding the last few posts.

    1) Rights, Miranda etc are an important issue generally but there are so many more serious problems with the confession. As to my use of the word entertaining I meant that is all the lawyer misconduct in that case is to me. It is almost funny how clumsy they are but really it has little to do with the actual crime.

    2) The interview was not permitted to be used in court, by request of the defense. Please keep this in mind when you watch the interview whole. There is so much evidence of improper collusion between the prosecution and defense. It looks like the prosrcution saw the problems with the confession but knew it would not look good to see the news 'prosecution asks to suppress confession' so they got Peterson, the defense attorney, to do it.

    3) Peterson was also the attorney for Gregerson, who apparently confessed to killing Destiny Norton. Gregerson offered some very dubious confessions and seemed afraid to talk about the case later.

    4) Regarding the link mentioning Hser's body near a bloody plastic bag. I hadn't seen that. Destiny Norton's body was supposedly also placed in a plastic bag, supposedly by Gregerson.

    5) Regarding rape. Watching the confession if a person gives the benefit oif every doubt to the police then still it is not really credible that Met raped the child. He calls her a little sister and seems a little disgusted by the fbi agent pushing that, even though he is willing to say other things he is asked to say and even says something like "you can say I did whatever you want, it's fine, I'll play along". In other words its the normal response when you are interviewed by a dangerous person with a badge and/or gun. First rule, answer every question with yes. Second rule, if that pisses the interrogator off then change your answer to no.

    6) The police report has very odd information about dna samples including chain of command issues and some elements do not appear consistent with the trial.

    7) One scenario is that he killed her 'accidentally' then one or more roommates abused the body for ethnic hate reasons.

    8) It is very odd that now an article saying Hser was possibly raped after death. That was a key element of the Destiny Norton murder. Please read the relevant sections in the book the fbi agent wrote Heaven's Hammer. Some people, at least people in the U.S. for sure, can read a substantial amount of the book for free online.

    9) Someone should give an opinion regarding the time of death of Hser. 29 hours after disappearing the medical tech says she is completely stiff. She has not yet begun to even leave rigor mortis. Is it possible she was kidnapped, then killed more than an hour after disappearing, then her body dropped there?

    10) One item ignored in the media and redacted from the police report involves a fifth person who was at the house when the police arrested the four roommates. All identifying information as well as the reason for rerleasing him, are blacked out of the police report. This is a male. There was also a female acquaintance of the roommates who is mentioned as passing through later but that is a separate person.

    11) As to the number of apartments. When the police did their search they used a large group of officers and searched for several hours door to door, presumably searching every space over 1 cubic foot. In each search the person in charge of record keeping lists each of the apartments. There are roughly 35. In the first search there were three that were not searched. In the next to last search there was only one apartment where no one answered the door, where the body was.

    12) Regarding the news item that the four roommates all returned about the same time that day, that is not accurate. The police report details interviews with some of them. One of the roommates, Myint something returned early that day, around 4 o'clock. The others returned about 5. Because the police had endured a lot oif criticism in the Destiny Norton case and were starting to get criticism in this case it looks like they just put all their chips on Met. There is no indfication of any further investigation of the roommates in the police report. Once Met confessed they were all released and taken home.

    13) Even taking into account pressure from the media, the investigation has too many flaws. It looks to me at least like someone in the fbi was steering both investigations improperly. There have been a lot of instances of pedophile rings in government circles in the U.S., particularly in law enforcement, and without exception each investigation is eventually dropped or ignored despite evidence that is quite substantial. Utah is utterly run by the Mormon Church and Mormons are not known for that kind of issue but it seems something still that should be considered.

    14) Also regarding the Destiny Norton case, please look for some forensic information on that case. I have found nothing. The first confession, in which he claims to have abused the body after death, has so many problems. Notice that he says that a minute after killing the child he received a call regarding his own child. This is consistent with a fiction created by him voluntarily to reduce the stress caused by another fiction that was induced. In other words if he had done it then it is just odd that he would receive such a call. But if he had not done it but was pressured to say he did then the additional detail is a useful defense mechanism, a psychological retreat in his imagination. One of many small issues in his confession, aside from the huge problems.
     
  17. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    crackajax specific questions

    1) A huge amount of material was collected for dna samples. Among the specific samples listed for body parts that would be tested for rape, about a dozen say 'no sample tested'. For the common rape kit sample it says 'dna of insufficient quality or quantity for testing'. Additionally there are oddities involving other dna samples in several regards. The long story short version is that here you had a massively bloody and violent murder with all sorts of evidence, you have a suspect with a second grade education and no knowledge of American forensics, and yet somehow each piece oif evidence is something that probably existed before the crime. Both of the pieces of dna evidence, fingernail s and blood, are consistent with play and are specifically not consistent with the crime. Not a single piece of the evidence from the crime scene pointed to Met. That crime scene evidence, including dna from an unknown male, were all ignored in favor of dubious dna evidence.

    2) It didn't take ten minutes for the four guys to answer the door. More like 20 some hours. That evening the dad and a friend knocked on doors and the roommates did answer, at least one of them, and said she was not there. Over the next 24 hours there would be three extensive searches by police involving many officers taking many hours to go through thirty some apartments. April 2 was a Wednesday, a workday probably. You would think one man was placed outside any apartment that was not searched. Did they go to work that day? The police investigation was focused on avoiding more flak from the media. After the previous killing, of Destiny Norton, the local police had been excoriated in the press. So the police apparently called the investigation quits once they got a suspect. However it was a tight ethnic community, a person who needs to know something can find it out. The local community outside of po!ice involvement were not comfortable with the roommates and all of them were evicted. Was the neighborhood suspicion based on something? Or superstition? You would have to mingle a bit there to find out.

    3) It looks like completely separate living areas with separate bathrooms and only a common area on the main floor with a tv, probably kitchen, etc.

    4) This is Met's first version, before he got pressurized. His uncle called him and asked if Met would come over and fix a bicycle tire. Maybe the uncle was trying to get his nephew out and about. Met had only arrived in the country about 4 weeks previously. Met and a friend got the glue, tire sealant or whatever and went to his uncle's house. His uncle said the same thing at the trial but his wife, Met's aunt, said she didn't know about it. Is the uncle lying? It's possible but not likely. It looks like Met really did plan to go to his uncle's and others, including at least the English speaker who helped him buy glue, knew he was planning a visit. Other statements were that he was a bicycler at the refugee camp and perhaps he was sort of assigned by people to fix problems with bicycles. Who knows.

    Your question of did he know how the body got in his shower? Slowly he figured it out as the 'confession' progressed. First he was emphatic that he did not even know she was dead. Eventually the fbi agent gets him to admit he killed her but he says the child was climbing the stairs to the upstairs quarters and he grabbed her ankle to pull her back and she fell and hurt herself and said she was going to tell her father so he pushed her or something and she fell down the stairs and died. This is likely a synthesis of previous real events. There probably were times when she started upstairs and because of ethnic issues with his roommates he did not want to risk being accused of trespassing or stealing so he probably yelled at her who knows. The problem with this version is that it is not even remotely close to explaining the carnage and why was there no blood on the ground floor. One police officer did say he saw blood in a stairwell but that is only mentioned in one report. It might be significant, it might have been discounted. Eventually during the confession Met agrees to put the body in the shower but it gets more ridiculous. The killer would have been covered in blood. When I upload the videos with that part of the confession you can see what Met comes up with. It's funny in a dark way.

    add two points

    1) At first glance the dna, just because of the force of the phrase'dna' are the strongest evidence to people. But any person should quickly dismiss the actual dna evidence used to convict. Dna can be excellent evidence but any tool can be misused. Once dna is dismissed the nexct strongest evidence is the confession, until you actially watch it. Then it ius hard to take seriously. So ultimately yes the strongest evidence against Met is that the body was found in his living area.

    2) Regarding a conspiracy among roommates. The fact that not one of the four would answer the door might be a sign. If that is the caee then there are two obvious possibilities a) Met really did kill the girl in an accident, then the roommates saw blood or some other evidence and rearranged the crime to make sure things fell a certain way, or b) knowing Met would be gone the child was killed by one or more roommates, probably in an opportunistic way rather thasn preplanned, since she wandered out on her own.

    The problem with that is that it is hard to believe four separate people would each agree to go along with a murder involving a small child from their own religion and ethnic background. Kemo mentioned that rape is used to stoke conflict across ethnic lines but this girl was Christian. Maybe they were mad that she played with a Muslim or maybe the perceived benefit of the crime was greater than its perceived cost.

    Some years ago I took a statistics class, statistics for psychology I think, and based on what I have seen so far, and it might change, my opinion is that it can be shown with reasonable statistical certainty that one person killed both children and that the killer knew beforehand that he would have the opportunity to influence the investigation. The challenge is to present it in a way that is clear. I continue to look at each piece of evidence, and there are many possible scenarios. Hopefully the investigation will be reopened on its own so I don't have to refigure out all those arcane formulas.
     
  18. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IIRC, the blood in the stair well was on a hand rail?

    I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here, because I have not yet come to any conclusions, and I am not biased either way.

    -- The damage to Hser's heart is referred to as 'tear'. Now, my father in law had this (and survived, thanks to surgery) wso I do know a little bit about it. It seems a "tear" in the heart (presumably aorta, which is what most commonly tears) can be caused by profound impact trauma (car accident, being stomped on in the chest) and also can leave a person alive for quite some time after, as it did my FIL. The way a tear can work -- forgive my layman's terms- is that the tissue around the tear may unravel in layers as circulating blood puts incresing pressure on the damages bit until it ruptures. Some people, this happens in seconds. Others, it can take several hours, more rarely a day or more. (without treatment)

    So it's *possible* that Hser, horrifically injured, could have slowly bled into that shower for hours before the tear in her heart ruptured.

    -- Blood on the jacket: what if he was not wearing it at the time? IIRC, the weather was warm. Blood spatter is evident in the apartment. The blood could have spattered a jacket that was hung up or lying somewhere nearby.

    -- Fingernails: *IF* Met did kill Hser, he would have HAD to clean himself up in order to leave the apartment. This might include washing his hands. Small amounts of Hser's DNA might have remained under his nails.

    As to the serial killer part:

    -- As I understand it, Met's lawyer was a legal-aid type guy, assigned to him by the court (or however they get assigned)? I'd be looking at how the selection of lawyers worked in that office, where it came to child sex crimes and who was willing to take them on, maybe.

    -- Gregerson had a history of violence toward women, his MIL and wife (once, he hit his pregnant wife so hard he caused a miscarriage). He also purchased deodorant products to mask the odor of Destiny's body as it decomposed in the tub (for 8 days). Failed his polygraph. He lied when neighbours asked about the source of the foul smell coming from his home (blamed it on dog feces). He refused on three occasions to allow LE to search his basement and demanded a search warrant, which they obtained. When asked by reporters why he killed Destiny, he siad lawyers prevented him from answering, but ""I can tell you this, I have now become a strong advocate against pornography."

    http://missing87975.yuku.com/topic/1001/Destiny-Norton-Murder-suspect-arrested#.VGfoyK4sHSg

    Sorry, but IMO he looks pretty darned good for the murder of Destiny Norton.
     
  19. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    From an earlier quote from ausgirl "Nothing really explains how one of Hser Ner Moo’s tiny purple shoes landed in that filthy toilet in the basement, the other shoe falling behind and beneath the porcelain".

    At one point in Esar Met's confession he says something about as he was leaving he saw the shoes and took them downstairs and threw them. But, a) the translator was helping him cook his story and had done some interviews in previous hours b) I'm confused about why the particular location of the shoes stands out. Where would someone put the shoes of a small child they had just raped, strangled, tortured, killed that would not be unusual? Where should they be?

    Regarding Esar Met 'fleeing' that almost certainly did not happen. The police were being drama queens, kicking down doors etc only because they were being criticized from various directions. He was waiting calmly. The police kicked down the door instead of knocking. The police said 'on the ground' and his aunt and uncle got on the floor but he did not. Remember he speaks no English and these police may have been wearing military costumes, more and more the fashion of American police. So one of the cops put a pistol to Met's head, yelled some more in English, then used force to put Met on the floor.

    Everyone agrees Met had not been to his aunt and uncle's house before. Here is what we know?
    1) Met and his uncle both claim that his uncle had previously called him and asked him to come over to do something with a bicycle.
    2) Met's aunt was not aware of that.
    3) Met had never been to his uncle's house before.
    4) On the bus, or at a bus station Met and his uncle met up. The appearance is that it was an arranged rendezvous maybe because Met did not know the busses well. Devil's advocate would say he fled, then encountered his uncle on the bus, then the two of them concocted a ruse about fixing a bike tire. The reasonable evidence here is that the visit was planned, that he left at a specific time to meet his uncle, and that he was not fleeing.

    Re the crime scene tech saying the blood could have come from rubbing against a wall. The same guy said he only tested one stain since they were linear. He is stretching things to try to put Met at the scene of the crime. The blood on his jacket is consistent with play that we know he was involved in. It is not consistent with a crime in which we do not know if he was involved. It has no value as evidence except to deceive, to mislead.

    The heart tear stuff I did not know. I assumed maybe a rib broke or part of the sternum and went through the heart. It had perplexed me how can a person live with a tear in their heart but I get it now.

    You may be misreading some fingernail evidence
    1) Hser Ner Moo had microscopic skin cells from other people under her fingernails, as does everybody. Among the people whose dead skin cells were under her fingernails were Met, her family and probably many others. If the test could examine small enough samples, e.g. 1 cell, it would be possible to find dna from people who had never been within feet of her. As it is that evidence is not meaningful.
    2) In a later confession video the detective tells Met that he must have covered his clothes in blood during the killing. Met agrees. The detective asks if any people on the bus noticed the blood and Met said they did not notice it. The detective asks where on his clothes the blood was and Met thinks a little, trying to imagine where the fbi agent might want the blood to be, then he picks up the front of his t shirt and holds a square of it and says 'here'. After prompting he then says he washed the shirt at his aunt and uncle's house. When the shirt was tested, presumably a very precise high tech test, the only blood on the shirt was from Met himself, which was from the rough arrest that happened shortly before the confession. Blood does not seem to be visible on him though during the confession.

    The Gregerson case is much more complex. Actually each piece of the confession and each piece of evidence supporting the confessions that I have seen is flawed.

    You mention his comment about the evil of pornography or whatever he said so I'll address that briefly. On the surface most people would interpret that to mean he feels pornography caused him to develop a sexual attraction to very small children. But look back at the confession first. Please read what the fbi agent wrote about the confession in his book. I have some familiarity with both those types of people, the fbi agent and Gregerson. The long story short version is that Gregerson was led to believe 'god' was going to punish him 'for something'. He got this notion from the fbi agent. Both Gregerson and the fbi agent are from Mormon families and if you are too interested I can give you an idea how the conversation went. Ultimately Gregerson was led to believe 'the lord' or whoever would be making him pay for past sins and it would be going against the lord to resist the process. I'm sure it sounds like a stretch to you but it is extremely possible.

    Regarding the body Some reports suggest the house was searched up to four times in the week before the body was found. The stories about him saying that a dead body smell was dog droppings is not credible.
    Further, from news "Earlier that day, a volunteer searcher, Letticia Costello, called police to report a faint foul-smelling odor wafting from the area of a small apartment complex near 500 East and 700 South". This is a disgusting analogy but imagine you have an animal the same size as a child and the animal is dead and for whatever reason you have to keep the dead animal in your house. Would you really not be able to find a place that was airtight? There is also the comment that an fbi agent saw a tyvek suit inside the doorway of Gregerson's house. This was apparently part of the justification for asking him to take a lie detector test. Do you know what a tyvek suit is? I did not until I googled it, and I have worked in the past on industrial jobs and jobs that required special clothing. He was a radio shack clerk and he bought a tyvek suit to handle a dead body? Why would he not just get an airtight bag or something similar? It seems odd. As I mentioned earlier, near the end of Esar Met's interview the fbi agent and detective said they needed to take Esar Met's clothing. The cop asked what Met would wear and the fbi guy said they could put him in an fbi jacket. They ended up putting him in a tyvek suit. Maybe 10% or less of people would know what it is but all law enforcement people would. It sounds conspiracyish but there are so many flaws in both of these cases that involvement of a law enforcement officer should be considered.

    A few days ago I looked at a Salt Lake news site and saw an article about the Trentadue case being argued in a Utah court. The fbi has a scary record of astonishing crimes and coverups and they should not get blind trust.

    Gregerson may well be guilty, perhaps Met is too. But all possibilities and all evidence should be studied.
     
  20. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Look up 'god like productions' and search for Gregerson (the link I tried to put here doesn't function).

    Have a look at some of what these people dug up on Gregerson, the incredible dysfunction of his marriage, awful domestic violence, him constructing 'fantasy' versions of himself online (all BS) to attract women (while still married), wife making him break up with an online lover a week before the murder... Not any of it "proof" for sure BUT -- he's not exactly Mr. Mentally Stable is he. I have NO trouble believing he also viewed a lot of porn online. Not that I believe "porn made me do it" arguments, anyway... And then things came to a head at home, just before Destiny is killed and discovered in his basement. Whatever the cops did wrong or right -- evidence collection, obtaining a confession -- that man lived for *eight days* with a reeking of tub of decomposing child in high summer, in his basement, during a time his wife wasn't living at the home. He didn't just lie about the dog poo, he also blamed the smell on rats. People were *smelling* the body, days before the search warrant finally allowed LE access to the basement. Even if there's dodgy LE behaviour in securing his conviction, I am at this point in no doubt Gregerson killed that child.

    Now, if I've got it correctly -- your theory is that there's a serial killer cop murdering kids and stashing them in other people's basements, aided in this activity by collusion with lawyers, other LE, the FBI?... I kind of lose track there.

    And I have to ask myself, re Gregerson, what's more likely -- a conspiratorial, multi-agency plot to protect a serial child killing cop, or the guilt of Craig Gregerson - stressed-out, wife-beating, weirdo...

    I have not, however, read the confession - if you could link me please, that'd be awesome.
     
  21. FleaSpirit

    FleaSpirit New Member

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Esar Met confession audio
    5 mp3's 20 to 30 mb each about 130 mb total
    individual recordings
    http://esarmet.com/audio/1.mp3
    http://esarmet.com/audio/2.mp3
    http://esarmet.com/audio/3.mp3
    http://esarmet.com/audio/4.mp3
    http://esarmet.com/audio/5.mp3

    Compressed folder with all 5 recordings
    http://esarmet.com/audio.zip

    Regarding Gregerson, he certainly fits as the type of guy that people can easily believe commited almost any crime.

    It is not 'my theory' that someone associated with law enforcement in Salt Lake during that time period killed those two children. It is 'a theory'. One of many possible scenarios.

    Are you able to get the following link in your country?
    http://books.google.com/books?id=7i2eAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT270&lpg=PT270&dq=gregerson+confession&source=bl&ots=-fWtzB2EGF&sig=GG2P9Yxi3AjJRwaNyL9PfavGTAk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B9loVJyYDo7ciQK8s4CgBA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=gregerson%20confession&f=false or if the link does not configure properly for your computer are you able to google gregerson confession and get to a books.google link?

    Incredible, as absurd as the confession of Gregerson is, as obvious as it is that the words are not his, there is not a single mention of it anywhere on the internet except my references to it and there is not a single dedicated link to any page anywhere on the internet that contains the specific absurd written confession he made except the following link
    http://esarmet.com/images/IMG_20141116_071205.JPG
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice