Discussion in 'Movie Theater Massacre in Colorado' started by JBean, Jul 26, 2012.
WOW! Looks and sounds like Fenton tried to get some help.
I honestly think the joker comment, if made by JH, was him being a smarty pants. He ruined the Batman movie, so he got witty about it.
Taking into considerationthis quote pulled from this report six days ago,
"Generally, if you believe the threat is imminent, call campus police. If you think it's best to involve the BETA team, contact Lynne Fenton," the minutes say."
Then after learning from ABC's Breaking News report last night that James Holmes' psychiatrist, Dr. Fenton, took it upon herself contact the University Police, breaking doctor/patient confidentiality - I can't help but jump to the conclusion, from where I sit (imo) that Dr. Fenton did indeed consider JH to be somewhat of a critical threat!
Now, if this is a true assessment (and I'm uncertain as to whether it is), I am very upset that Dr. Fenton, and the university, seemed to exhibit absolutely no concern for the community, outside of the university. Apparently by making no attempts whatsoever to notify the Aurora Police Dept of any such imminent threat(s).
This is conjecture and as always jmo.
No doubt exactly who knew what and when will be under the microscope. Damage control and big money go hand in hand. The uni and all involved are well into that process given the latest revelations. Fenton had caught on to Holmes and regarded him a threat. She knew he had a problem, but did she know even more? The uni seems to be going the way of Penn State. It is all in the legal corner now. So much for any disclosure and trying to figure out what happened and how to prevent the same from ocurring again. It took Sandusky being arrested and convicted before the gravity of the situation sunk in on Penn admin. Students should be protesting. imo
I like your posts. Caution no caffeine alert.
First, you know what my first thought was, last night, when I saw headline re law enforcement contact BS. ABC, according to some folks here, (mom) have made some glaring errors in their reporting.
all BSnow theyre just trying to throw so much out there and covering their butts, while making everything all convoluted basically for trial.
As you know, I come from the traditional, classic, straight mental illness notions as it relates to James.
I firmly believe, that hes had a long mental illness treatment history, and was able to perform at the levels he had been earlier because his mother, understood mental illness and the importance of medication with this particular cluster of pathology.
I find some of the illusion stuff fascinating and in some context probably had impact here. My basic foundation was pure delusional thinking and his notion that he was indeed the joker.
This only comes up on this thread, in like the last 36 hours, and it was really surprising to me. The notion that the selection of the massacre, and what was being played on the screen, was random. That was indeed surprising.
In my opinion, the theatre, Dark Knight being played, and the fact it was that opening night was paramount and-the basic foundation of the entire event.
OORRA, your notions surrounding the Dr. Are interesting. I think that the package, if any of us are ever privy to it, would indeed show angry tirades toward her. However, I view them, as related to attachment, loneliness, and basically feelings of abandonment. (Ice you want me hospitalized which will interfere with my plan).
He would have definitely been aware, prior to her notifying anyone of her concerns, that she did want him to be placed in the hospital. In all likelihood, she had probably asked him to go himself. At times, that can anger them. But by this point, obviously, he was a highly delusional and apparently frightening.
The date the notebook was mailed, is crucial. For if it was mailed well in advance it was a cry for help. As usual as it relates to this angle of the story. All kinds of nonsense and changes in the story emerge. How long it had been sitting in the mail room etc.
Also, Aurora- when you told us that in this movie the joker role had been eliminated, I had not known that-- that was really stunning. And firmly fits in with him, really, having a job to do that night. . Being his hero.
I totally concur with you, that he completely, believed, that he was the joker
Topics switch! Did you will notice a couple of days ago that the administration, nobly, changed its view on its faculty talking to anybody? What a joke. They told them they better not say a word when everything was hot,----- now, any one in their right mind would not talk to anybody because its clear now, that this is going to turn into everyone involved with this kid, is potentially liable ---- no one is going to say a word.
Both, his peers and faculty are crucial in that they can report behavioral observations for months, in different settings through the passage of time. Profoundly telling information. They would, moreover, probably be able to describe his increasing obsession with the films opening and the joker. They wouldve been able to report that they saw marked decreasing academic performance, and were starting to be afraid of him.
.. Not a peep.
And you all know I would be thrilled to have the notion that she did go to law enforcement, but something doesnt feel right here either. I cannot imagine, why, a LE member, especially in light of the fact that the information is being communicated by a Dr., didnt do anything. (LE)
Theres no logic in the alleged report to LE not being acted on. It makes no sense.
It is less logical, considering the timeline of the information being released. When it broke that the Dr. Was concerned enough to attempt to contact BETA, at that point in that week, it would have behooved the Dr. to instantly, let it be known that not only had she tried to get the BETA folks involved, but fulfilled duty to warn obligations by contacting LE and THEY dropped the ball.
Why on earth would her team not have let that out, if it is true, to the media? More fish.
In my opinion, the severity of his lifelong MI is going to make, for lack of a better word, blaming medication. Pretty nonexistent.
A long history of medication is going to support the notion of bot the chronicity and severity of his illness.
The lawsuit stuff as it relates to pharmaceuticals, typically, happens when an individual has never been on a psych med, starts taking one, and then something horrible happens.
I think Liz said this: Dr. Fenton took it upon herself contact the University Police, breaking doctor/patient confidentiality -, that all along, the way it was portrayed in the media is what bothered me so.
Again, I have to state that she did not break confidentiality in any way; she was filling her duty to warn obligations.
Theres also another huge component of this that, here, has not been discussed. It is called informed consent. Every client, in the first session, is overtly explained, that confidentiality is paramount, and however there are certain instances wherein confidentiality will be broken.
All folks, sign an informed consent form indicating that they are fully aware of the exemptions to confidentiality, and that outside folks will be contacted immediately should there be any indicators desire to harm self, others, abuse or neglect.
These exceptions to confidentiality are clearly discussed and reviewed in the first session.
Liz, I am very upset that Dr. Fenton, and the university, seemed to exhibit absolutely no concern for the community, outside of the university. My issue all along. Especially with administration.
The way this thing is playing out all along, probably LE will now state that the Dr. did not talk to them or did not communicate the severity of the concern/ problem. Cause now, they too are in big trouble.
I certainly dont think any of us can complain, all of those involved have certainly kept it interesting huh
Yeh, now they are just throwing everything all over the place ...........
Appreciate your views Cariis. I have only run into this sort of thing by way of investigating criminal activity that often involved some of the same backgrounds and same types of MI individuals. I've seen it, I can recognize it, I can differentiate most types and have a pretty good idea whos capable of what but I have no proper training in that area. I come from a totally different perspective but in general I get what you are all saying. I believe Holmes intelligence demanded a more intricate dilusion of him than most. I believe the circumstance of the movie provided that.
I fear we aren't going to get much in the way of new information that you can hang your hat on any more. Unfortunately that will lead to more speculation without much to prove anything one way or another. I usually try to sort things into some sort of ballpark theory and then look around to see what can be found to support either side. Besides the joker aspect, I would be interested in that McDonalds job Holmes once held and his coworkers insights. I believe there is a potential for a Ronald McDonald like character to do some other grave act somewhere yet. I doubt he will be near as intelligent and may drop early simplistic signs to watch for. This was highly educational for me to hear what some of you trained in the field had to say.
The dividing line in basic opinion on the theater so to speak is somewheres in here. (qoute attached) My views are pretty well all on the same side as yours Cariis but I like to entertain the other positions as well. This is what you are up against especially if getting too far out in front of any actual event for the intended pupose of stopping it. Part of Fenton's position is, how was she to know anything like that would happen and especially how and where? My question goes to How did she know it wouldn't be at the university?
If I suspected for instance a McDonalds shoot out in the offing and had my eye on an individual exhibiting signs, maybe even saw him seeking a way to get close to and or even attempting to get a costume, who would you tell and how would it be recieved? Right, you are first met with a lot of scoffing. Even after the fact, it is not easy to see the the psychological trail foundational to the act.
Like I said, this was quite educational for me, thnz all.
And all without caffeine! The doctor is still puzzling in that how did she know he wouldn't return to the uni? Was she more privy to the specifics of the dillusion than we know?
Besides the second hand statement of him identifying himself as the Joker
What else makes you think that the film itself was central to the planning, rather than the fact that it would be a full theater?
For me it was the total accumulation of many a minor nebulous thing akin to the feel of "for whom the shoe fits." The length of time it took to gather and accumulate the items, the planning right down to which night the detonators were set to correspond with the time of opening night. I had suspicions the very name, The Return of The Dark Kniight would trigger something like this from someone somewhere.
Many years ago I had an encounter with an individual of considerable intelligence who went on to become a serial killer. I knew (felt) something was wrong with that individual then. Little did I know the depths of it. What I recall most was that he had a thing against technology and was quite sarcastic when speaking of the commonly accepted higher teck of the day. He rode an old bycycle and for the most part seemed quite harmless but for some reason the alarm bells went off in me. For all his apparent intellect, he had a distain for technology to a degree I'd seldom seen before or since. He later chose targets appropriate and suiting to his particular dillusion. I remembered that point from all those years back. Everything matches right from within the dillusion to the eventual act. The more planning, the more that seems true. Like I said, I come from a criminal investigative approach and what I describe is a very early indicator, nothing you take to court. If you know the dillusion, you can get ahead of it and identify possible targets. If you only see the end result, you have to backtrack to uncover the individual with that dillusion. But it gives a start, a means to find the leads to where the proof may lay. In this case The uni records, Holmes computer records, etc etc would all likely provide whatever was required. It shouldn't be a mystery in this case; what is hidden to us is likely well known to others.
The individual I refered to in the above was Ted Kaszinski.
And on a side note.. I saw the new trailer to the gangster movie last night for the first time. Catch line- paraphrasing,- "once you do it you can never turn back you know." Interesting feed in, Hollywood likes that, box office and all.
Or he could have just been planning for the opening night of a highly anticipated movie where the theater would be full at midnight.
Again, don't really see any more connections other than the one I mentioned, that was it.
Sure, everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they wish. The thread is armchair psych profile. I am personally not big on coincidence when a high degree of planning is involved. We are likely to hear the proof and truth of it someday. I wonder what Holmes classmates would have to say? I wonder what exactly it takes to make/cause a temporal illusion? What is the actual process? Does one have to be a psych major akin to Fenton to understand it?
A temporal Illusion is an unproven theory relating to time travel/multiple timelines/being able to change past events.
Like the Butterfly Effect
That almost sounds so far out that it isn't anything a legitimate psych class or student would be involved in..
Re your other question newsleuther, the same question may come up again in a reframe with the latest revelations in regard to Fenton and the potential danger Holmes posed to the school. Some have speculated his failures there triggered this resonse. Why not target the school? Lots of targets there too. Classes are just as confined and populated as a theater. On the flip side, that would seem more suiting and fitting with past similar occurances.
Thanks for bringing this up.
I know this could lead to "conspiracy discussion" so i tend not to openly discuss this
I read one link that i put a lot of salt and pepper on it and i added cumin..
the only thing that bugs me there was some of the victim's data on the social security database has a different death dates. But i will stop there as i dont want to discuss our victims further, feel free to go to that site and form your own opinion and then check the movie ButterFly Effect ( and their Techno Music while Ashton Kutcher time travelled in the movie ) and connect it with Temporal Illussions and Batman 1920s comics
It's a theory that could be discussed in neurology as a "what if".
I believe that temporal illusions focus somewhat on "reframing the past in your mind to affect present/future events". Its hard to grasp and I've only been able to gleam a rudimentary understanding of it in reading about it (plus I knew a smidgen about it in the past)
His Temporal Illusions project is going back to the past , change the past so the past will not affect the future.
( correct me if i am wrong )
and a simple explanation here, it seems it is what happens when you are in a car accident, time slows down in your mind temporarily:
I'm still poking around for more links, but it may be boring to everyone. (It makes sense that he may have studied, or taken a class in this, the college was cited as studying Alzheimer's which really is a messed up time frame(s) in the person's head. Trying to figure out what is going on in the brain at that time may help find a way to help Alzheimer's patients, they really need it.)
http://papers.cnl.salk.edu/PDFs/Untangling Spatial from Temporal Illusions 2002-3516.pdf
That link explains it much better.
The conspiracy types get into how those lags in perception could be manipulated to change the past/present
Are they considering University Police as Cops? Is University police and Campus police the same? Campus Police are members of BETA TEAM.
9:55 a.m. ET: EXCLUSIVE: The psychiatrist who treated suspected movie-theater shooter James Holmes made contact with a University of Colorado police officer to express concerns about her patient’s behavior several weeks before Holmes’ alleged rampage, sources told ABC News.
The psychiatrist treating James Holmes told a University of Colorado police officer that she was worried about her patient weeks before he allegedly killed 12 people in an Aurora movie theater
BETA Team is compose of
The Team may consist of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.
Here is the UNIVERSITY POLICE info at CU
Providing a safe and secure campus environment
The University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus Police Department strives to provide a safe and secure campus environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Every police officer is certified in the State of Colorado as a Level One Peace Officer, which gives them full police arrest and enforcement powers. They are complemented by non-sworn, unarmed uniformed security officers. Police dispatchers provide coverage 24/7, year round, to campus facilities located at the Anschutz Medical Campus in Aurora. Physical security measures, including cameras, alarm systems and a state-of-the-art building access control system are used to secure buildings.
Security is everyone's responsibility. We ask that you, the campus community, partner with us to ensure that the university is a safe and pleasant place to work.