GUILTY At 16 Cyntoia Brown Killed A "Customer" Should she be Released from Prison?

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Tricia, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. sloane7777

    sloane7777 Well-Known Member

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    If she had done all of this without being sold/pimped out I would agree with all of you who think she deserves this, but the entire act of Rape/SEX and prostitution and Pimp changes the dynamics and can literally RUIN a young person and her mindset . IMO MOO
     
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  2. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that she "deserves" the punishment. Life is not fair.

    I worry that she won't change if let out. But, that is the problem of the governor. If she is given a chance, it needs to be set up to help her succeed. And I don't see that there is enough help for her to be successful.
     
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  3. Hippiemomof5

    Hippiemomof5 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure what side I fall on here... how has her behavior been while incarcerated?

    I think it’s a sad situation regardless, such a young life ruined. Not just her decision to pull the trigger but all the decisions made by others that affected her life to put her in that position.
     
  4. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    In 2016, there were 183 inmates serving life sentences in Tennessee for crimes committed as minors. To what extent is Governor Haslam going to evaluate each of their cases to determine if they should have their sentences commuted? I wonder why CB is the only one who has successfully attracted a high level of attention from activists?

    Teen killer's story inspires push to change Tennessee law
     
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  5. Willow Knight

    Willow Knight Well-Known Member

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    As it has been said before on WS, at times a "like" is not enough. There are several opinions at WS that I truly respect and yours is one of them. Even if I have a different opinion, certain posters really make me re-think mine. In this particular case my feelings were strong, reading the history of CB just never gave me a self defense feeling, a person was murdered while (I believe) he was asleep. CB ran away from many foster homes, attacked teachers, among other violent behavior. She had many opportunities in life, however she chose her decisions.

    To me this was not a girl that was forced into her lifestyle, these were her decision that led her to murder. What type of person can kill another, then rob the victim, and continue with her cover up. These are the type of people that should not be walking the streets, what would have happened had she had a child, would there be another thread for abuse and murder of said child? Would all of us be saying 'the signs' were there, why was nothing done?

    No problem here taking another look at past convictions and sentencings, however I feel the correct decision was made in this particular case.
     
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  6. human

    human On Time Out

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    Ironic that there are people upset about human trafficking but when we see what happens to a trafficked child, some people do not seem to umderstand what happens to the trafficked child as she ages.

    She did not choose the life that she was subjected to.
     
  7. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. I met children who grew up with parents who were drug addicts, what do they do with their kids? Drugs. Definitely not normal lifestyle.

    I wanted to grab these kids, and give them a normal life. "Normal" for them was living in an apartment with almost no food, electricity was routinely shut off, their clothes were always filthy, and manners, almost nonexistent. One little boy had been so neglected, by age 5, he had almost no speech, and ate like a dog.

    Many of the people who are incarcerated, grew up in lives that pretty much lead them to incarceration. It is something that no one really does anything about.

    I have no doubt that Cyntonia has a huge file, of various addresses, she has probably been in the system for years before she was incarcerated.

    But, do you think that society will be a safe place when she gets out? She is little to no impulse control. That is something that is taught from a very young age. Do you think that she will be a good Mother if she has children? If she is released, where will all of the Social Justice Warriors be? On to the next cause. Cyntonia has no skills for adult living. None. And the programs to help her, are few and far between.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  8. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    * Long post. Going to explain my thinking on this case. Feel free to disregard or scroll past if desired!

    I agree with Mickey's post above. CB was conceived by a 16 year old unable/ unwilling to mother her. She was adopted at age 2 by a woman who, at least on the surface, appears to have given CB every opportunity she had available to live a stable, secure childhood. When CB began having very serious trouble at school (violently attacking teachers and other students), involved with the juvenile justice system for committing various crimes (such as breaking into homes to steal valuables and jewelry at age 12 to buy drugs), this same adoptive mother repeatedly stood by her, and worked with social services and juvenile justice to get CB help. This included extensive treatment for chemical dependency at age 13, and placement in an alternative school setting prior to that.

    At about age 14, she entered a court mandated long term residential juvenile center (incarceration). When released at the end of her 15th year, she ran away from home and did not participate in post release supervision, services, or schooling.

    CB was engaging in sex for money/ drugs on her own BEFORE she met McGlothien (“Cut throat”) at age 16. She was couch surfing, staying anywhere she could get drugs, a meal, a place to stay. Yes, she was “underage”, but she was most definitely not “a child” in any way at that point in time. She had voluntarily dropped out of school and left home. In another set of circumstances, she could have petitioned the court to be emancipated. Most social services and foster placement wanes around age 16, as these teens age out of services and placement for children. The goal at that point is preparing the teen for independence. They are not children at age 16.

    IMO, the term “child” should not apply to any adolescent over the age of 12 or 13—but many online like to label any teenage minor they perceive to be a victim as a “child”, so they appear more sympathetic or vulnerable. Conversely, a hated, reviled perpetrator at age 16 or 17 is universally considered an adult for their actions, particularly first degree murder (such as Tyler Hadley, who viciously and unprovoked, attacked and murdered his parents in their home with a claw hammer. He went on to host a big party in the same house a few hours later.)

    IMO, CB “used” McGlothien as much as he “used” her—their association was entirely mutual, IMO, from all that can be gleaned online. GM was definitely a terrible, drug addicted, criminal human being, and likely did engage in “domestic abuse” with CB, but I would not characterize him as a “pedophile” or a “pimp.”

    CB and GM both had extensive drug habits, and CB selling sex was how they funded and fueled their mutual habit. He didn’t introduce her to prostitution—she was doing that before she met him. He didn’t introduce her to drugs—by her own admission, and court documents, she was chemically dependent for many years before she met him, and was a continuous daily user of many substances. He was a criminal degenerate, IMO, but their association was completely mutual.

    IMO, CB was not “sex trafficked”. I think they did have violent episodes between them, but she was not a “slave”, nor was she tied up or otherwise prevented from leaving him. This is not a sex slave victim like Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped from her home and bed, or the Cleveland women chained and held captive for a decade, or Jaycee Dugard, also kidnapped from the bus stop and held captive as a sex slave for a decade. These situations are not in any way equivalent to the lifestyle choices of CB. They are true victims, IMO. CB and her life choices are sad and unfortunate, but she's not a victim, IMO. There is a very big difference.

    By her own admission, GM provided her with the .40 cal handgun and ammunition she carried. She had the means and opportunity to escape from GM or JA—by her own admission. She kept going back to GM. She was not “brainwashed” into going back—she went back because he provided her with what she thought she wanted: drugs, shelter, protection, and a reason not to go back to her adoptive mother and social services.

    GM was murdered during her prosecution, so was unable to give any testimony. Therefore, we only have CB’s characterization of GM’s role and behavior toward her, and IMO, CB’s word is simply not enough with the evidence we have, for me to believe he “sex trafficked” her. He was her BF— but I can’t characterize his role as that of a pimp or pedophile, which he is often called online and in celebrity and media comments. He was a horrible, nasty, awful human being, and I’m not at all sad he’s dead, but he wasn’t a pimp, a pedo, or a sex trafficker, IMO. She was not kidnapped from her home and forced into sex or prostitution. She quite willingly engaged in this behavior, by her own admission. Whether she was legally “old enough” to be charged with prostitution is beside the point—and those charges were dropped. The fact is that she DID sell herself for sex, by her own admission—she was not “forced” into this lifestyle at all.

    She never had sex with the man she killed, JA—by her own admission. He did not rape her—by her own admission. JA was a terrible and criminal human being also, but did not “purchase” her from anyone. He didn’t prevent her from leaving.

    And he was not a pedophile either—by her own admission she never told him, or GM, that she was under age. Her physical appearance (prior to the pigtails in court) did not appear to be a pre-pubescent child. And IMO, I don’t think she has FAS, or any kind of *treatable* mental disorder. I think she is likely a borderline personality, as the forensic psychologist determined, and possibly an antisocial personality (sociopath) as well. Those are not treatable conditions—they can be monitored and supervised, but not treated with any effective mental health care or medications. She is highly intelligent and extremely manipulative by many separate reports over the years.

    I think it’s terrible that any person was born into the situation CB was. But plenty are, and don’t end up going down the path CB did, and ending up committing casual murder. Some do. She had many positive chances others do not. She had an adoptive mother who made a good and stable home for her.

    CB made one bad decision after another after another after another. She had MANY opportunities to get help, make different decisions, go down a different path. She had many opportunities to escape from the bad decisions and bad people she sought out. When she met JA, she had a large caliber handgun and ammunition she could have used to get away from the bad lifestyle and bad people, and gone to police or her adoptive mother to begin again. She had many choices, and she always made the worst ones she possibly could. That’s too bad—her own decisions have landed her with the consequences she currently has. Nothing at all about the murder, and her actions after is “self defense”, IMO.

    And bear in mind, her sentence could have/ should have been much worse! She had a number of breaks during the prosecution and sentencing that actually lowered her sentence.

    So now, 13 years after she casually killed a man who was not an imminent threat to her, stole guns, money, and a truck from him, we are supposed to overlook every aspect of her behavior that led up to that moment? We are supposed to forgive her for everything and pardon her……because….why?? Because she is “of color”? Because she is a female? Because she is pretty and articulate? Because she got an associate’s degree in prison, and volunteers in programs to better herself and others? Because she was costumed to look very young, innocent, and cute in her pigtails in court pictures from 2006? Because she was 16 and “underage” when she committed all these crimes?

    A pardon would not be justice, IMO. I could possibly agree with re-sentencing of 30-40 year sentence, with possibility of parole after 85% served. As Mickey said above, she has no skills to live as an adult on the outside, and programs to help her are few and far between. Thankfully, she hasn't produced any children, and hopefully never will. For now, she is where she belongs, IMO.
     
  9. human

    human On Time Out

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    That is so true! Is prison the place for her? Her reward for being raised in horror?

    It is highly unlikely that she can function. Is there no other choice?

    I always think of infants. Their chubby little faces . Some going to a life of horror. It freaks me out to think of it.
     
  10. human

    human On Time Out

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    I think some research into child development would be useful. There is the womb and the first two years of life. Those are critical years .

    She made choices? No, the choices were made for her when her tiny little self was subjected to who knows what as an infant and toddler.

    Adverse Childhood Experiences is something that is being instituted with social workers, police, teachers, and the medical profession. I imagine someday it will be instituted in most medical facilities
     
  11. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    I'm familiar with "Adverse Childhood Experiences." I think awareness of this concept can be very helpful to psychologists and counselors when providing therapy to individuals.

    However, I definitely don't think "Adverse Childhood Experiences" is, or should be, an all-purpose excuse, or defense for criminal behavior. Nothing about having "Adverse Childhood Experiences" prevents an individual from choosing not to engage in criminal behavior. It IS one part of the explanation for why some individuals choose to make bad and criminal decisions. But it is not the only reason teens make bad choices.

    It's not a "get out of jail free" card, nor should it be. And it is not predictive of an individual's propensity to commit crimes-- we don't put people in prison because they "might" commit crimes or murder. If that were true, many more millions upon millions of people would be in prison for criminal behavior, because they were born into "adverse childood experiences".

    Almost every criminal defense attorney tries to use the "adverse childhood experiences" excuse to mitigate their client's responsibility-- especially in sentencing arguments. We already mitigate responsibility and consequences for minors-- they cannot face the death penalty for first degree murder, and in many cases, cannot be sentenced to LWOP. Cyntoia Brown was not sentenced to LWOP.

    CB has access to lots of counseling and mental health services while in prison. She can reflect on her choices, and explore her background there, while serving her sentence. She has MORE access to care and services now than she ever would if released. She has access to education and skills training while in prison. For the most part, she has been a model prisoner. She has taken advantage of both, and I'm glad for that. She is making the most of her situation. That's all we can ask of any inmate. Parole boards take that into consideration.

    Sadly, the most functional, integrated, sober, and cooperative she has ever been in her life is within the highly structured and supervised experience of incarceration. Just like Cristian Fernandez-- a 12 year old killer, with lots of sociopathic issues. The most integrated, cooperative, and functional he ever was happened after he murdered and was incarcerated.

    For many reasons, as a society we are unable to provide the structure and supervision a lot of perpetually wayward teens need to be successful citizens. We are loathe to remove them from dysfunctional families and environments, even when they are screaming for help. We have no long term residential mental health and behavioral services, essentially, at all. No one wants to pay for long term effective mental and behavioral health care, because largely it's custodial, expensive, and doesn't work to "fix" the problems. We are unable to persuade teen girls in dysfunctional lifestyles from conceiving and having children they are unable to parent-- and we cannot persuade them to make adoption plans often enough. Our social services systems are tremendously overburdened and only barely effective in the best of situations with highly cooperative clients.

    Unfortunately, we we have to "wait" for the teens (and adults) in these bad situations to commit crimes *bad enough* to provide that structure, care, and supervision for them. In the prison system. We can debate all day long about how bad that is as a plan, but it doesn't change the truth of the problems, and management choices we have in our country.
     
  12. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that Cyntonia will be a good Mother? To cute, chubby little infants?

    What type of work environment do you see Cyntonia being able to do? In your office? Do you want to work with her?

    My issue with social workers, many of whom I know, never seem to be grounded in reality. They see some sort of utopian society. They see "Cyntonia" as a "client" to "help". The relationship ends when her hour is up. "See ya' next week".

    I worked with "Cyntonia" at school, or the substance abuse treatment center she went to...40 hours a week.

    When we went to transition meetings, to discuss clients like "Cyntonia", I often wondered if we were discussing the same person. I suppose I misplaced my rose colored glasses. My cynicism is grounded in reality. Sadly.

    Good thing I no longer work in the field, I burned out on the hopelessness of the lack of services to actually help someone like "Cyntonia" to find a niche in society. Incarceration is probably the best place for her.
     
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  13. human

    human On Time Out

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    I think some research into child development would be useful. There is the womb and the first two years of life. Those are critical years .

    She made choices? No, the choices were made for
    I was a teacher for over thirty years. I had children like her. That is why I feel for them. They did not choose their parents.

    I have a lot to say on this. Really, reading about what the whole thing is about Adverse Childhood Experiences actually means for police, social workers, teachers, and the medical field hopefully will make a differene .I will put in the link later.

    Prison is a further nightmare. I will say once again that it freaks me out that babies and children go home to hell.

    People can read on the net how children have been unjustly removed from parents. Maybe. I have never seen it. I see them having the children far longer than they should.

    Laws are made to be so lenient because there is still the idea that children are possessions.

    I don’t know what the answer is. The US does not like the idea of infringing on parents.

    But to say this woman made decisions is laughable. I did not think Patty Hearst made her decisions in a sound mind either.
     
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  14. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    But, @human, do you think Cyntonia should be released into society? Right now, today? Given the lack of services available to help her?
     
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  15. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    Largely, what we are debating here is whether adverse childhood experiences is an explanation, or an excuse, for criminal behavior.

    I believe ACE's are an explanation, not an excuse.

    There are some people who believe "any" adverse childhood experience, or any adverse adult experience, is an excuse sufficient to render a criminal perpetrator "not guilty". That we should let all the convicted felons with ACEs out of prison, immediately, because they are "so damaged" they cannot be held accountable for making bad and criminal decisions.

    I don't want to live in a society that would absolve pretty much every criminal from responsibility because they didn't have enough love, or structure, or had too many "ACEs" in their childhood.

    I have sympathy and pity for their situations, but believe people *can* make good choices, take advantage of the nurturing of good people in schools, teachers, etc. People have free choice. Many make good choices. Others make terrible choices and take innocent lives. We can have some tough love and compassion for the criminals, but the bulk of our compassion and empathy should be for their victims.

    I don't believe that all criminals are victims-- very few are victims, except they are certainly victims of their own bad choices.

    I think we have far too much emphasis on identity politics and the promotion of perpetual "victimhood" in our society as it is.

    These wayward kids with ACEs need compassion and structure and care and understanding in childhood. Whenever possible, they need to be removed from their lousy, dysfunctional parents and given another chance at a decent childhood. If they make bad choices as teens and adults that result in crimes, they need prison. IMO. And counseling while in prison.
     
  16. KaaBoom

    KaaBoom `·.¸¸ ><((((º> ...·´`·.¸¸ ><((((º>...·

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    Who made the choice for her to shoot a sleeping man in the back of his head, and steal his money and car? I believe she admitted that she choose to do that in self defence. Then the self defense claim fell apart.
     
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  17. KaaBoom

    KaaBoom `·.¸¸ ><((((º> ...·´`·.¸¸ ><((((º>...·

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    Yeah, apparently now child prostitutes are no longer criminals. They are now "trafficking victims" and as victims they are not responsible for any crimes they commit.

    We are no longer a country of laws. We are now a country of vigilante justice. If somebody does you wrong, just kill somebody. It's doesn't even have to be the person who did you wrong. It OK, because you are a victim, not a criminal.
     
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  18. human

    human On Time Out

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    Here is the link to Adverse Childhood Experiences.

    I realize that just because the link is posted , it does not mean people will read it.

    There is a lot of info of how to deal with this issue.

    I feel as the different groups that deal with children are trained to inderstand what these mean and interventions are down, we can cut down on the horrors that people experience.

    We cannot incarcerate huge amounts of people. We cannot afford it. It is smarter to deal with issues up front than later.

    Cyntoyia is the child people cry for. Perhaps Caylee Anthony would have turned out like this.

    Adverse Childhood Experiences | SAMHSA
     
  19. human

    human On Time Out

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    Child prostitutes are criminals? Wow.
     
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  20. KaaBoom

    KaaBoom `·.¸¸ ><((((º> ...·´`·.¸¸ ><((((º>...·

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    Yes, in Tennessee they were criminals and were prosecuted until 2017. Since then they are considered victims. I guess if some here have their way even child murderers won't be criminals. I hope people understand that there will be serious consequences by not holding minors responsible for their actions. Murder is wrong, and even a 16 year old girl with a bad life, should be able to understand that, and should pay the consequences for it.

    Tennessee Recognized For Laws Combatting Child Sex Trafficking
     
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