At 16 Cyntoia Brown Killed A "Customer" Should she be Released from Prison?

[human]

I think we have to be very careful when discussing the “nature vs nurture” elements in the debate over the “cause” of criminality.

I think the “nature vs nurture” elements are worthwhile to discuss/ debate as a purely intellectual exercise, or in an academic setting. I think teachers, counselors, mental health providers should be aware of these kind of emerging issues in caring for kids and teens—I think that is the best use, currently, for that information.

However, because these elements are so subjective, non-reproducible, and elusive to quantify, and are not backed with quantitative peer-reviewed research, I don’t think they bring much value to an objective evaluation of the lawfulness of someone’s criminal behavior. These issues of nature vs nurture should be given emphasis or weight in sentencing or clemency sparingly, IMO.

"Nature vs nurture” is in the infancy of actual peer-reviewed, double blinded research—and the populations that have been studied are scientifically insufficient to make *any* generalizations—as the author in a linked study above makes clear related to his own bran scan and family history.

Right now, the “nature vs nurture” issues are best appreciated and considered by psychologists, social workers, teachers, counselors, and other mental health providers. Not prosecutors, juries, judges, etc. These are not issues the justice system can, or should, be strongly considering at this point in time, IMO, because they CANNOT consider these issues fairly to ALL accused.

The legal and justice system needs to focus on actions, behaviors, and laws in order to exercise the highest degree of blind justice to all accused. Is our system perfect? Heck no. But I’ve lived and travelled in dozens of countries around the world in my life, and our U.S. system is by far the most fair and just in the world, IMO. I realize some don’t agree with that, but I’d argue that those people don’t have much perspective or knowledge about legal systems outside of the U.S., and the rights of the accused (or absence of rights). Cyntoia Brown was treated entirely fairly in the TN system. She was not given LWOP, she had her case debated between juvenile and adult charges, she had several charges dropped or reduced, she was not subject to the death penalty because of her age, etc.

We should remember that if CB had been just 517 days older when she killed JA, she could have been subjected to the death penalty, and LWOP, for her crimes in the state of TN.

No one wants to live in a society where we do a genetic test on an infant, or a brain scan, and declare that infant a future potential criminal that requires lifetime surveillance and limitations. And no one wants to live in a society where any convicted violent felon or murderer with an “excuse” from their childhood is found not guilty by reason of adverse childhood experiences.

Nature vs nuture discussions don't allow for the population of individuals that we don’t know about—how many with adverse childhood experiences and genetic pre-disposition DO NOT commit violent crimes?

How many with no genetic predisposition and no adverse childhood experiences DO commit violent crimes?

How will we OBJECTIVELY define, measure, and prove “adverse childhood experiences”? And so forth. The “science” in this area is simply not objective enough, and most of the research is convenience samples of descriptive research, or purely anecdotal retrospective reporting. Much of the common discussion about “nature vs nurture of criminality” is heavily biased opinion pieces in lay-person publications and magazines, with tenuous links back to a single, interesting observational “study”, etc. They are not scientific, they are pseudo-scientific.

We base our system of justice on ACTIONS and BEHAVIORS of individuals, and believe fundamentally that individuals have free will and choice when they act-- regardless of their background. Largely, we base our justice system on objective information and evidence about crimes. And yes, we do place the actions of an accused individual in context so we can understand better what happened and why. Which again, is why a hypothetical scenario of Jaycee Dugard, or a hypothetical scenario of Elizabeth Smart killing their captors is simply not at all comparable or equivalent to the circumstances and context of how and why Cyntoia Brown killed JA. They were completely innocent, cruelly kidnapped, imprisoned sex slaves. Cyntoia Brown was not. I'm hopeful Gov. Haslam does not pardon her-- I don't think that would be fair, or just. She has another appeal pending for potential re-sentencing. I think that's a better avenue.

The medical community has done work with brain scans. Hopefully this work will filter down to medical facilities that do not have the resources of more advanced ones

 

[human]

I wanted to speak to the linked agency here. The problem I see with large tax funded governmental bureaucracies such as SAMHSA, IMO, is that they exist to “publish and promote awareness” of painfully obvious issues and associations that most reasonably intelligent 4th graders could describe. They are not authoritative primary sources for accurate information, IMO-- and they definitely have a bias based on the political wind blowing and funding them at the time of their work. (Bloated agencies like SAMHSA exist to promote themselves, and justify their continued existence, first and foremost, IMO.)

These publicly funded bureaucratic agencies rarely, IMO, publish or “discover” anything new, and don’t have any realistic, implementable solutions for what they describe.

A good example is the info linked upthread that “a lot of kids born into an environment of poverty, crime, and drug addiction often go on to experience poverty, engage in crime, and become substance abusers”. That is not a discovery. It’s an elementary observation.

That’s like doing a study and publishing something like “many people who have hernia repairs have abdominal wall defects before surgery.” Or, “100% of women who have a cesarean section were pregnant before surgical delivery.” “Or, “many people who die from illicit opioid overdoses are chemically dependent.”

Reading the actual research helps one to understand. Some of it is very technical, unfortunately.

 

[beatrixpotter]

You honestly think a 16 yo is as responsible for her prostitution as her pimp? Knowing something is illegal is not the same thing as grasping how wrong something is. I don't know how much "wrong" factors into the equation with a kid who is literally on their own and just trying to survive. She had a pimp...did I miss out on parents guiding her?

I know MY teens are fully aware of how wrong all these things are. And it's really no risk to them as they are in a stable home with stable finances, loving parents, extended family etc. And they've been raised to grasp right and wrong from the very beginning. But I would never expect the same response from a kid who is in the position of being pimped out as I would from mine.

edit: Ugh, I had hit "quote" but it didn't show up. I was responding to this: " I
am not sure that she was 'prostituting herself'. She was being prostituted at 16 years old.
Nobody was forcing her to do it, and nobody forced her to rob and murder that guy. Even a 16 year old should know that is wrong."

 

[K_Z]

She had a pimp...did I miss out on parents guiding her?

Quote snipped for focus.

Yes, she did have a very involved, very caring parent, and many others trying to help her during her adolescent years. (Read the court files linked upthread.)

CB was adopted at age 2, and her adoptive mother, from every indication including court records, fought tooth and nail for CB to get a great deal of mental health, substance abuse, and behavioral care. The mother cooperated extensively with law enforcement, medical providers, and social workers during CB's very turbulent episodes during childhood (beginning with substance abuse, violence by CB against teachers and students, and robbery/breaking and entering at the age of 12.) Juvenile records are not itemized in court records from before age 12, but are alluded to.

She had inpatient mental health, and inpatient substance abuse treatment, followed by outpatient care several times-- which CB was uncooperative with. At 15 she was placed in juvenile "incarceration" and treatment. There was a detailed plan for follow up and care at the time she was released, with the mother, social services, and various providers. CB chose to run away, rather than participate in any ongoing care and treatment. She was couch surfing, doing drugs daily, and turning tricks-- all of which is what led her to "Cut"-- by her own words.

She was engaging in prostitution before she met Cut. He did not introduce her to drugs. She and Cut had a mutual relationship, though violent and turbulent, as they both were using drugs continuously by her own admission. She continued to engage in prostitution on her own, to provide drug money for both of them. He was not her "pimp" -- he was more of a "boyfriend" who periodically abused her and treated her poorly. He did not imprison her. She came and went as she pleased. She could have left him at any time. He even gave her the .40 cal handgun she carried and shot JA with. He was a terrible human being, but he was not her captor, or her "pimp", IMO. She was not "sex trafficked", IMO-- although her supporters, and celebrity activists have been tremendously successful forcing that association with her name-- particularly on the internet and social media.

Most people don't know much about her case beyond the voluminous search engine hits and opinion pieces online. IMO, the narrative about CB has been carefully framed as something very far from the truth.

CB was not an innocent "child" at age 16, although she was legally a juvenile. She was certainly immature, violent, impulsive, and manipulative, along with being multi-substance chemically dependent. IMO. She is only a victim as far as the consequences of her *own* repeated bad decisions and criminal behavior, IMO.

The time to "save" Cyntoia was when she was first in trouble, back when she was a young adolescent and having so much trouble with SA, and violent and criminal behavior. By the time she was 16 and discharged from her last involuntary incarceration/ treatment, it was too late to help her. She was too old, and too uncooperative. She did not want any help, and wanted to be on her own.

Sometimes parents and the social services and juvenile justice system give a young teen all that there is to offer as care, guidance, and support, and they insist on going down the wrong path anyway. I think that's what happened to CB. She had a lot of formal and informal support and care, a stable home, a mother who cared for her and supported her, and still she continued down a path that led her to run away, engage in a severely dysfunctional lifestyle, and make very bad choices in "friends". All that led up to her casually killing JA, and stealing his money, guns, and truck.

Remember-- she was given a lot of consideration by the court because of her age. Charges reduced and dropped, etc. If she had killed JA 512 days later , she could have faced the death penalty, or LWOP.

IMO, she does not deserve any kind of pardon. That would be a vast injustice on a number of levels. I'm okay with re-sentencing her to about 30-40 years, with possible parole after 85% served. That is similar to many other states when a juvenile is guilty of first degree murder.

I'd encourage people to read all the court files and records available online as primary sources of factual information. Admittedly, there is so much "she's a child victim, racially targeted, and unfairly sentenced" noise out there that it's hard to cut through all that. It's always good to try to get to the truth, IMO.

 

[human]

Adopted at age 2. There is the key. The critical bonding years.

Hopefully we can learn what can be done if anything to ameliorate the damages from those critical months where so much is happening.

Bonding, respoding to the child’s cries, the predictabilty of the parent.

The brain develops different capabilities at different ages.

There is so much brain research that is enlightening.

 

[mickey2942]

CB is exactly where society will be best served.

 

[human]

Lots of good info here

The effect of trauma on the brain development of children

 

[human]

Excellent book.

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-S...45454641&sr=8-1&keywords=The+body+keeps+score

 

[human]

CB is exactly where society will be best served.

Maybe she can have a reality show like Casey Anthony

 

[K_Z]

Dec 20 TN Gov Bill Haslam issued executive clemency to 11 people. 7 were pardons for decades old crimes such as a 1983 DUI/ alcohol possession, forgery, etc. An example of clemency for the remaining 4 was commutation of parole for a woman who has been on parole for 30 years with no violations. None of the ones still in prison were granted release, though one is now eligible to seek parole. None of the cases were even remotely similar crimes to CB’s convictions. The Governor is in office till Jan 18. Presumably the incoming governor will not consider clemency a priority for while as he takes over setting up his administration and attending to the needs of running the state.

Here is the TN Governor’s office statement from 12/20/18:

Haslam Grants Executive Clemency to Eleven Individuals

The othe quite interesting development is that the lead investigator from the murder of JA sent a detailed, 7 page letter to the Governor urging no pardon or clemency for CB. This letter has a great deal of details about CB’s actions surrounding the murder that I haven’t read in court documents or articles online. One example is that she asked a friend to drive her back to the murder scene, JA’s home, for the express purpose of stealing more of JA’s possessions. Another detail is that the murder weapon she used had been recently used by McGlothien (aka Cutthroat) in a robbery where a woman was shot in the neck.

Here is the detective’s 7 page letter to the Governor:

https://media.wkrn.com/nxs-wkrntv-m...ov. Haslam1_1545364765901_65607757_ver1.0.pdf

Lead detective in Cyntoia Brown case sends detailed letter to Governor

 

[Willow Knight]

This letter:

https://media.wkrn.com/nxs-wkrntv-m...ov. Haslam1_1545364765901_65607757_ver1.0.pdf

Thank you so much for the above link. In the beginning I had found many articles regarding this case, however this is a well thought-out summary. An extremely dangerous person is being kept off the streets. Many details and information that I had not been aware of before, and those I had been aware of were bad enough. As one poster stated above, this is another Aileen Wournos.

 

[human]

Quite frankly, I have no sympathy for guys who pick up 16 year old girls or any girls for sex.

I also felt sorry for Aileen Wournos.

Once upon a time, they were little babies who suffered the worst abuse.

I really marvel at how people are so loving towards Caylee Anthony, for instance. If she had grown up in the homes of the Anthony’s , it is likely she would be serving prison.

With Casey’s busy sex life, if would not be unusual for Caylee to be sex abused. And who knows what else.

Or any of these kids who were horrifyingly abused. Their lives would be affected tremendously and probably not in a good way

 

[mickey2942]

Respectfully, while everyone has an opinion about Casey Anthony, a jury found her not guilty. There is no point in comparing the two.

The jury in CB's case found her guilty. That is the reality and fact. It won't change.

Life is not fair. But, seriously, would the world be a better place with CB in prison or out of prison? She was already diagnosed with an antisocial Personality disorder before she killed a man. That is disturbing. People with ASPD don't "rehabilitate", they just become more skilled at deception.

 

[human]

Respectfully, while everyone has an opinion about Casey Anthony, a jury found her not guilty. There is no point in comparing the two.

The jury in CB's case found her guilty. That is the reality and fact. It won't change.

Life is not fair. But, seriously, would the world be a better place with CB in prison or out of prison? She was already diagnosed with an antisocial Personality disorder before she killed a man. That is disturbing. People with ASPD don't "rehabilitate", they just become more skilled at deception.

Little Caylee was not reported missing for thirty days. To me, that is not good parenting. Apparently she was fine with random strangers takimg care of Caylee.

And the Anthony scammers, the reports of how Casey treated her grandparents. Casey’s lyimg. All of those are indicators that life would be very unfair for little Caylee

 

[Willow Knight]

Quite frankly, I have no sympathy for guys who pick up 16 year old girls or any girls for sex.

I respect your opinion. If I may ask you or others that share your opinion, would it change if the victim did not pick CB up for sex? Is there something I am missing regarding that night? Not sure where the comments about her age and sex traffic come from. According to CB, her victim didn't have sex with her, or try to force himself on her. He simply bought her food from Sonic and gave her a place to stay for the night. CB also claimed she was 19. Truly just trying to understand the other point of view.

https://media.wkrn.com/nxs-wkrntv-m...ov. Haslam1_1545364765901_65607757_ver1.0.pdf

 

[human]

I respect your opinion. If I may ask you or others that share your opinion, would it change if the victim did not pick CB up for sex? Is there something I am missing regarding that night? Not sure where the comments about her age and sex traffic come from. According to CB, her victim didn't have sex with her, or try to force himself on her. He simply bought her food from Sonic and gave her a place to stay for the night. CB also claimed she was 19. Truly just trying to understand the other point of view.

https://media.wkrn.com/nxs-wkrntv-m...ov. Haslam1_1545364765901_65607757_ver1.0.pdf

Did you read the report from the police guy up above?

And sure. Guys are always picking up girls to bring them home and sleeping in the same bed because it is simply a slumber party.

 

[Kakidoll]

16 year olds CHOOSE their behavior and actions. While they are legally juveniles, they are NOT children that don't know any better. Choose the behavior, accept the consequence. I'd be ok with lowering her sentence, but she does NOT need to be let off because she was a 'child'.

 

[YESorNO]

Most prisoners, like Cyntoia Brown, unlikely to survive 51 years behind bars

December 28th 2018

"NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Cyntoia Brown has been in prison since she was 17 years old, and she will not get out for at least 51 years unless Governor Haslam intervenes, granting clemency to the convicted murderer who was abused for years and killed a man that bought her for sex.

When Bledsoe County's Michelle Martin received clemency earlier this year, Cyntoia's supporters saw the parallels in their two cases. Martin was abused for years by her father whom she killed, and her father even fathered a child with her at 12 years old.

However, Martin had a chance at parole in 2023, meaning she was potentially within four years of walking out of prison. To date, Haslam has extended clemency only to people already out of prison, or as in Martin's case, people close to the end of their sentence. Commuting Brown's sentence would represent his most aggressive commutation so far.

Psychiatrist Dave Verhaagen from Southeast Psych says the horrifying abuse that Brown and Martin sustained likely changed their brains in their childhood, making them more prone to emotional reaction and paranoia.

"It doesn't necessarily remove the culpability of that but it does make someone more likely to behave like that," Verhaagen said. "They're still responsible for their own behavior. That being said, years of abuse can predispose someone to being more emotionally reactive."..."

Most prisoners, like Cyntoia Brown, unlikely to survive 51 years behind bars
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[mickey2942]

I would like to know what "years of abuse" were documented in CB's case.

 

[L White]

Many, many, many people experience hard lives and also, unfortunately child sex abuse (I speak from experience). We don't all kill a man who is asleep and then rob him.
She was diagnosed with a personality disorder before the crime. She was already thought of as dangerous.
Prison is (meant to be) there to protect the public. Will we lock up all victims of child sex abuse just in case the kill a man in the future?
Please do not lump all trafficked teens into being victims to the point that they have a free pass to kill people. It's offensive to those of us who managed to move on.