Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #5 *Arrest*

[DeDee]

Interesting point ch_13.

As I was reading your post, "restaurants" popped into my head. In my area (regional south=eastern Australia - where wild mushrooms are common) there is a restaurant which frequently mentions in their publicity, that they offer meals containing foraged ingredients.
It seems, (I am happy to be corrected) that establishments which offer meals containing foraged ingredients, are considered to be rather trendy (up until now anyway).

An extract from a local restaurant's publicity (with identifying details and location removed) states -
"Paying homage to locally grown and foraged foods, stop into our new restaurant (name and locality deleted), for an intimate dining experience. A moody vibe of subdued lighting,..."

Any thoughts about this, Websleuthers?

TIA

Great expansion on a theory, jj. Chefs are known to want the freshest ingredients for their dishes. I don't think they forage for mushrooms but could be wrong on that. However, onions, garlic, scallions, edible flowers such as pansies can be foraged when in season. Rinse, serve and eat. Same goes for wildflowers with each having their own season. They're used as spices and in side dishes. Flowers in the photo are native wildflowers in Perth, AU.

click photo to enlarge
Saltbush, wattle seeds, dune spinach

Oh, are you suggesting, perhaps, that the 4 luncheon guests dined at a restaurant after departing Erin's place and became ill because the Chef foraged DC mushrooms? But, Erin is the only suspect to be named by the Police because the mushroom meal was prepared, served and eaten in her home.

Besides, if Police thought for a minute that a restaurant may be serving Death Cap mushrooms they'd have it shut down and the owner/chef/staff would be under immediate investigation.

 

[Ellery84]

establishments which offer meals containing foraged ingredients, are considered to be rather trendy (up until now anyway).

Yes, I think that’s definitely a “thing!”

 

[investikater]

Chefs are known to want the freshest ingredients for their dishes. I don't think they forage for mushrooms but could be wrong on that.

Don't forget this one

Professional chef:

Deadly mushrooms cooked by chef - BBC News

The death cap mushrooms that killed two people in Australia were prepared by a chef for his co-workers, health officials say.

www.bbc.com

It is believed that Mr Liu could have mistaken the poisonous death cap mushrooms for the Paddy Straw mushroom. The latter is an edible fungi that is commonly found in Asia and considered a delicacy.
"It's just mistaken identity. Liu Jun would have been walking past it, picked it up," Tom O'Dea, a friend of the late chef, told ABC Radio.

Loading…

www.heraldsun.com.au

"Liu Jun was an exceptional chef,'' Canberra resident and friend Tom O'Dea told ABC radio today.
"It was the best Chinese food that I've had in Australia.''

He believed Mr Liu's fastidiousness for fresh food led to him mistaking the poisonous mushrooms, which he possibly picked in Braddon, for an edible Chinese variety.
"Chinese culture is into super fresh food. The reason why they have aquariums at Chinese restaurants is because they want to eat the freshest food they possibly can,'' he said.

He made a common foraging mistake - being overconfident in a new place.

 

[investikater]

<modsnip - response to snip in quoted post> It is more about her kind of arrogant opinions---like calling the locals of her small town 'ignorant M____ Effers'

She came across as petty, bitter and arrogant, imo.

They are cherry picked comments though. Couldn't you make anyone look bad by doing that?

 

[ch_13]

Interesting point ch_13.

As I was reading your post, "restaurants" popped into my head. In my area (regional south=eastern Australia - where wild mushrooms are common) there is a restaurant which frequently mentions in their publicity, that they offer meals containing foraged ingredients.
It seems, (I am happy to be corrected) that establishments which offer meals containing foraged ingredients, are considered to be rather trendy (up until now anyway).

An extract from a local restaurant's publicity (with identifying details and location removed) states -
"Paying homage to locally grown and foraged foods, stop into our new restaurant (name and locality deleted), for an intimate dining experience. A moody vibe of subdued lighting,..."

Any thoughts about this, Websleuthers?

TIA

I'd be curious to know what actual ingredients are on the menu of that restaurant. I think the difference between "locally grown" and "foraged" is not always so clear and I suspect it's probably more of the former than the latter. One problem with foraging is that you can't guarantee a reliable supply. That might be fine for a home cook, but a restaurant may need to put out 50 meals every night.

Also, while eating the wrong mushroom is fraught with risk, I don't think that's true for most wild foods. There's lots that are fairly easy to identify, even for a non-expert: apples, walnuts, cherries, acorns, crabapples, various kinds of berries, dandelions, wild onions, mint, clover, and so forth.

And even if you do somehow get it wrong, you are usually just risking an upset stomach. It's rarely a matter of life and death the way it is with fungi.

 

[jjleroche]

Great expansion on a theory, jj. Chefs are known to want the freshest ingredients for their dishes. I don't think they forage for mushrooms but could be wrong on that. However, onions, garlic, scallions, edible flowers such as pansies can be foraged when in season. Rinse, serve and eat. Same goes for wildflowers with each having their own season. They're used as spices and in side dishes. Flowers in the photo are native wildflowers in Perth, AU.

View attachment 450929 click photo to enlarge
Saltbush, wattle seeds, dune spinach

Oh, are you suggesting, perhaps, that the 4 luncheon guests dined at a restaurant after departing Erin's place and became ill because the Chef foraged DC mushrooms? But, Erin is the only suspect to be named by the Police because the mushroom meal was prepared, served and eaten in her home.

Besides, if Police thought for a minute that a restaurant may be serving Death Cap mushrooms they'd have it shut down and the owner/chef/staff would be under immediate investigation.

Thanks for that interesting information Dedee - very informative.

No I wasn't suggesting that the victims dined at a "foraging" restaurant. I was responding to a post which had prompted me to consider availability or otherwise, with the terrible danger of consumption in death caps in mind. Availablility and regulation of mushroom products for sale has been a topic of discussion on this forum .

As a general rule, I don't think twice about consuming food products which I've purchased, (although I mostly shop at large supermarkets which, I believe, are careful to only sell products which satisfy the associated government regulations.) genereally stock but this forum has caused me to consider how vulnerable the public can be.

The "foraging" issue is interesting (for want of a better word). There seems to be a stark difference of opinion among experts regarding identification of edible or inedible fungi. Some say they're easy to spot - others disagree. JMO

I imagine (and hope) that restaurants selling meals containing foraged products need some sort of accreditation/license, but I really don't know.

 

[investikater]

The "foraging" issue is interesting (for want of a better word). There seems to be a stark difference of opinion among experts regarding identification of edible or inedible fungi. Some say they're easy to spot - others disagree. JMO

Are you refering to anything in particular here? I'm unfamiliar with any experts who say it's easy.

 

[MsMarple]

Thanks for that interesting information Dedee - very informative.

No I wasn't suggesting that the victims dined at a "foraging" restaurant. I was responding to a post which had prompted me to consider availability or otherwise, with the terrible danger of consumption in death caps in mind. Availablility and regulation of mushroom products for sale has been a topic of discussion on this forum .

As a general rule, I don't think twice about consuming food products which I've purchased, (although I mostly shop at large supermarkets which, I believe, are careful to only sell products which satisfy the associated government regulations.) genereally stock but this forum has caused me to consider how vulnerable the public can be.

The "foraging" issue is interesting (for want of a better word). There seems to be a stark difference of opinion among experts regarding identification of edible or inedible fungi. Some say they're easy to spot - others disagree. JMO

I imagine (and hope) that restaurants selling meals containing foraged products need some sort of accreditation/license, but I really don't know.

I don’t know about Australian laws regarding foraging but in the US each state has its own regulations. I live in Washington state where chefs must have certain permits and follow certain procedures in order to serve foraged food in their restaurants. New York City is also strict.

For example, a forager must include a form containing a description of the item including Latin names and other record keeping. For mushrooms there’s a list of specific species allowed to be used in commercial food service.

https://cms.agr.wa.gov/WSDAKentico/Documents/DO/RM/RM/36_SellingForagedWildPlantsAndMushrooms.pdf

Notice that in the story posted upthread the chef prepared the death caps (mistaken for edible) mushrooms for a private party and not in his restaurant for the public. I suspect there are Australian regulations governing foraged food to be sold commercially whether it’s a restaurant or a grocery store.
JMO

 

[Ellery84]

I don’t know about Australian laws regarding foraging but in the US each state has its own regulations

Yeah I don’t know what the law is for foraging in Victoria, but I don’t know if it’s relevant - as Erin said in her own statement that she purchased those mushrooms from two stores (shops), so presumably she’s saying she didn’t forage for them.

IMO

 

[investikater]

Play Spot the Death Cap: Deathcap mushroom - Amanita phalloides

 

[bearbear]

Police will be “very keen” to talk to Wilkinson now that he has been discharged, says forensic criminologist Dr Xanthe Mallet.

“He’s the only one who attended that lunch to survive besides Erin, and he is going to be giving a full account to police as to what happened at that lunch,” she told Sunrise.

“Who ate what, the demeanours and conversations.”

“It’s that dehydrator that potentially cooked the death cap mushrooms that they need to get tested,” she said.

“That’s going to be critical in this case and really the crux is were the death cap mushrooms in that dehydrator or not?”

Watch: Deadly mushroom chef hits out - the key update that could unlock mystery

A critical update has emerged that could blow the case wide open.

www.nzherald.co.nz

haha! xanthe really does like to state the obvious!!

 

[investikater]

How much scrutiny do small independent grocers get in Victoria?

 

[MsMarple]

Yeah I don’t know what the law is for foraging in Victoria, but I don’t know if it’s relevant - as Erin said in her own statement that she purchased those mushrooms from two stores (shops), so presumably she’s saying she didn’t forage for them.

IMO

I agree. However I’ve noticed discussions over the last few days questioning whether the death caps were actually foraged regardless of what EP claimed. I think some may also be wondering if the unidentified Asian market where EP allegedly bought dried mushrooms from sold her foraged mushrooms.

I just wish LE would issue an update.
MOO

 

[Ellery84]

I just wish LE would issue an update.

Ah, I see.
Yes me too! Gosh it feels like it’s taking forever.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Interesting point ch_13.

As I was reading your post, "restaurants" popped into my head. In my area (regional south=eastern Australia - where wild mushrooms are common) there is a restaurant which frequently mentions in their publicity, that they offer meals containing foraged ingredients.
It seems, (I am happy to be corrected) that establishments which offer meals containing foraged ingredients, are considered to be rather trendy (up until now anyway).

An extract from a local restaurant's publicity (with identifying details and location removed) states -
"Paying homage to locally grown and foraged foods, stop into our new restaurant (name and locality deleted), for an intimate dining experience. A moody vibe of subdued lighting,..."

Any thoughts about this, Websleuthers?

TIA

@jjleroche Foraging seems to be on the rise around the globe, especially since 2020 when people have been spending more time outside and getting back to basics. Many restaurants are popping up with more foraged ingredients on their menus (berries, apples, nuts, fungi, onions, garlic, leeks, asparagus, dandelions, wild greens, etc). Each city/region/country would set their own guidelines to follow to maintain public health. Doing a search for foraging on the rise brings up many interesting articles.

It's been reported that the family liked to forage. It's not clear if that means Erin's immediate family (husband, kids) or the extended family also. It's not unreasonable to think the entire family were familiar with foraging then, at least to some degree, either from their own foraging experience or through conversations with others in the family about those experiences. It's quite a topic of discussion amongst foraging hobbyists I have found.

It's also not unreasonable to think the four guests may have eaten breakfast together, and/or supper together because many people eat 3 meals a day. LE will surely discover if they ate together before/after, where they ate, and what was consumed, in addition to eating at EP's home. If the entire family were familiar with foraging, they likely would not be afraid to eat at one of those restaurants, although there's no evidence that they did in this circumstance. With Erin stating the mushrooms she used were purchased from stores, that leaves further scrutiny about the mushrooms she used.

There's so much we still don't know. Was the beef wellington the only mushroom dish. Did anyone else contribute a food with mushrooms that day. Was it definitely mushrooms that caused the toxin (only one article to date has confirmed this but LE hasn't commented). There are still many questions left unanswered. I wish we could know more details.

 

[Charlot123]

I'd be curious to know what actual ingredients are on the menu of that restaurant. I think the difference between "locally grown" and "foraged" is not always so clear and I suspect it's probably more of the former than the latter. One problem with foraging is that you can't guarantee a reliable supply. That might be fine for a home cook, but a restaurant may need to put out 50 meals every night.

Also, while eating the wrong mushroom is fraught with risk, I don't think that's true for most wild foods. There's lots that are fairly easy to identify, even for a non-expert: apples, walnuts, cherries, acorns, crabapples, various kinds of berries, dandelions, wild onions, mint, clover, and so forth.

And even if you do somehow get it wrong, you are usually just risking an upset stomach. It's rarely a matter of life and death the way it is with fungi.

You are right. Evolutionary, fungi are stand way farther from us than plants. They colonized the earth way before plants, too. So, for animal kingdom, they are too different and not well absorbed by the bodies, even edible ones. Like us, they can't make own food so they release digestive enzymes and eat the products of digestion of organic matter. Their toxins are not necessary and maybe, give them survival advantage by poisoning those belonging to other kingdoms.

 

[Salah11]

I agree. However I’ve noticed discussions over the last few days questioning whether the death caps were actually foraged regardless of what EP claimed. I think some may also be wondering if the unidentified Asian market where EP allegedly bought dried mushrooms from sold her foraged mushrooms.

I just wish LE would issue an update.
MOO

The story though holds no value when she can’t remember where she brought them.

Just thew a ethic community under the bus and then claimed amnesia over the actual shop she brought from.

 

[jjleroche]

Yes, I think that’s definitely a “thing!”

Oops! I've just realised that my recent post in which I was responding to ch_13 somehow got split into two. My bad. Thanks Ellery84 for nevertheless working it out, and responding.

 

[Curiouser+Curiouser]

unidentified Asian market

Imho, she went and got the mushrooms from under the trees that grow out there. We all know here in Victoria, never eat mushrooms from under trees unless you know what you're doing. Mushies from a paddock, all good. We used to go mushy picking every year.
Erin blaming an 'Asian market' disgusts me. The Asian markets are governed by the same rules as every other food shop. If they were selling poison mushrooms we would have had a rash of poisonings and there would have been an investigation. It's rubbish.
Imho, she went out and got Death Caps, dried them to make them smaller and harder to identify, and put them into or onto the beef. There's no way on god's green earth that she gave her kids the same thing with the mushrooms scraped off. She cooked. She made two batches. A slightly different pattern on the pastry and you're good to go. Unbelievable front to try for five people. Anyway, just my opinion.

 

[Kittybunny]

Personally, I don't need to twist myself into pretzels to find alternate explanations for words that have come straight out of Erin's mouth, and excuse what looks to me like very suspicious behavior.

Also, I live in the US, but I also know that investigators would be super careful about casting any aspersions on someone like Erin, and not fully investigating the possibility that a commercial establishment was responsible for harboring death cap mushrooms, it's an incredibly potentially serious health crisis. There would've been a lot of warnings, news stories, at least here in the US. This is not a case of mild food poisoning that can give someone diarrhea for a few days. This is an incredibly deadly toxin with high lethality from small doses. The fact that no warnings, raids, pulling all mushrooms off all Asian grocer shelves have happened and that investigators seem to have their sights squarely on EP tells me personally a lot.