Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #19

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El Gordo said:
That is the case , I said they CAN charge you , I did not say they HAVE TO charge you .... you only need a very basic understanding of the law to understand this .... people are found innocent in courts everyday because of lack of evidence
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Not entirely.
To charge someone requires Prima Facie evidence to exist at the very least.
A complainant can be declared vexatious if they regularly try and prosecute complaints against people without any Prima facie evidence of wrong doing.

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Kambo said:
Or have they laid the charge because they can’t find anything new and it is an effort to delay proceedings. In light of the new charges against the accused we request another 6 months to prepare the case.


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I've thought about this.

I keep coming back to the fact that I can't believe police would want any of the charges to fall apart on them in an embarrassing manner. This is one of the biggest cases in the country and they have faced significant criticism over the years. They've also just come off the Rayney case where their stupidity resulted in a massive defamation payout.

Now obviously nothing is guaranteed, and I'm not implying they have the right person. I just mean that I don't see them using any of the charges to play games such as buying time etc. The risk of that coming back to bite them is too big. Plus that would be soul-destroying for the families, if it came out that this was all a ploy.

JMO


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wow 11 members and 13 guests perusing this thread - that must be a CSK thread record not seen since days after arrest???
Hello to all the newbys!!
 
Mcfishntackle said:
Maybe he talked. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.


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I don't see why he would.

If he didn't commit the crimes, he isn't going to confess to something he didn't do.

If he did, there is no benefit to talking. He would be pleading guilty to crimes that, even with an admission and revelation, would likely see a long sentence. With regards to parole, if he was found guilty, then any revelation of a body can still be used down the track (and again, if he isn't responsible, well, he can't reveal that anyway).

Also, whoever is the CSK, they have not talked, that we know of, for 20 years. Can't imagine the urge to confess for conscience reasons suddenly striking anyone now (unless they were on their death bed). Nobody has ever confessed to the Beaumont children.

I am also guessing that if there was a confession of some sort that would be known about and there would already have been steps taken to enter a guilty plea.

JMO


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petedavo.au said:
Not entirely.
To charge someone requires Prima Facie evidence to exist at the very least.
A complainant can be declared vexatious if they regularly try and prosecute complaints against people without any Prima facie evidence

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Click to expand...

I really cannot be bothered arguing about this , I said they can be Charged without evidence... I did not say they will be convicted
 
Spooks-R-Us said:
In the link the 'Hearing Type' is listed as a 'Callover'.
Anyone know what this Callover means before I ask Google?

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From Queensland sources it seems to indicate waiting for a trial date to be set.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/court-users/practitioners/obtain-a-trial-date-callover
 
Innerchild said:
Wasn't Francis Wark convicted on circumstantial evidence only?

PD, when is the Shirley Finn Inquiry results due?
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Ear ring. Blanket. Indicator stalk.

Finn is still ongoing.
FINN,*Shirley
Listed for hearing: Adj sine die
Adjourned: Call Over 2 March 2018 at 9.30am

Keeping an eye on http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/I/inquest_findings_2018.aspx
And
http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/I/inquest_findings_2017.aspx

For Leela*McDougall and her mother Chantelle, Tony Popic and Simon Kadwell - also known as Gary Felton*

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Spooks-R-Us said:
Question: the charges of 2x aggravated penetration sexual assault. Is that:
A: KK victim both charges
B: KK and HD victim
Or
C: another victim we haven't heard about.

IMU I thought HD victim did not suffer sexual penetration????

What am I missing?


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Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
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I think both aggravated penetration sexual assault charges relate to KK (as in, I think she was raped twice).

I have been unable to confirm this specifically, but all the reports I have read refer to the indecent assault as HD, the sexual assaults as KK and the murders as SS, JR & CG. No mention of a sexual assault being JR of CG (I think we can rule out SS as no body). Initially they could have missed that, but once the charges were recorded and he appeared in court I'm assuming someone in the media would have picked it up if it was related to JR or CG as this would be new information that points to evidence the police have not otherwise revealed.

I also read a report about someone who was charged with 2 counts of rape for raping a woman twice in the same night, so it seems they are two separate events (and rightly so IMO).

Could be wrong, though. It has bugged me since I saw the initial charges that maybe the media has assumed it's KK but it's JR or CG and they've missed that crucial information.


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petedavo.au said:
Ear ring. Blanket. Indicator stalk.

Snip

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Do you mean that those are or aren't circumstantial evidence [in matter of Francis Wark]? I think they're circumstantial.



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Akai said:
I don't see why he would.

If he didn't commit the crimes, he isn't going to confess to something he didn't do.

If he did, there is no benefit to talking. He would be pleading guilty to crimes that, even with an admission and revelation, would likely see a long sentence. With regards to parole, if he was found guilty, then any revelation of a body can still be used down the track (and again, if he isn't responsible, well, he can't reveal that anyway).

Also, whoever is the CSK, they have not talked, that we know of, for 20 years. Can't imagine the urge to confess for conscience reasons suddenly striking anyone now (unless they were on their death bed). Nobody has ever confessed to the Beaumont children.

I am also guessing that if there was a confession of some sort that would be known about and there would already have been steps taken to enter a guilty plea.

JMO


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Exactly. Given the track record of our police and questions regarding recent DNA testing and handling of evidence why would he talk. It found guilty he is never getting out on parole no matter what he says or does. Play dumb until the end and hope they stuff it up like they have so many times before. Make them put all the cards on the table.
 
Hi All
First time poster but I have been following the Websleuths CSK thread for a while now. Like most of you, I am really looking forward to tomorrow.

Statement of the obvious, but I'm guessing the accused will be read the charges and asked to plead either Guilty or Not Guilty. My money is on the accused pleading Not Guilty. The Magistrate will then say there's sufficient evidence to proceed and a hearing will be set for the Supreme Court in...wild guess September 2018. I hope it's much sooner!

I must say I have loved reading all the (what I consider to be) 'whacko' theories people have had over the years. I say this with all due respect as everyone is entitled to their opinion. The theory about '...if you draw a line between Claremont and Wellard and then measure that distance due east you will find x y and z" and the shipping containers made me chuckle...and then the "I wonder what star sign all the girls were? Maybe the CSK is doing a zodiac thing" probably 'took the cake' for me.

Whoever the CSK is, I just think that the attacks were planned but the unlucky victims just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time (for the CSK). The CSK may have benefitted from having access to a building in Claremont nearby to where the victims were attacked...but who knows! I am soooo looking forward to following this case while acknowledging the loss of the victims and being respectful to the associated families.

Again, thanks for all adding to this Websleuths thread over the years....it's been great reading it all.

All of the above are just my opinions.
 
CyberRH said:
Hi All
First time poster but I have been following the Websleuths CSK thread for a while now. Like most of you, I am really looking forward to tomorrow.

Statement of the obvious, but I'm guessing the accused will be read the charges and asked to plead either Guilty or Not Guilty. My money is on the accused pleading Not Guilty. The Magistrate will then say there's sufficient evidence to proceed and a hearing will be set for the Supreme Court in...wild guess September 2018. I hope it's much sooner!

I must say I have loved reading all the (what I consider to be) 'whacko' theories people have had over the years. I say this with all due respect as everyone is entitled to their opinion. The theory about '...if you draw a line between Claremont and Wellard and then measure that distance due east you will find x y and z" and the shipping containers made me chuckle...and then the "I wonder what star sign all the girls were? Maybe the CSK is doing a zodiac thing" probably 'took the cake' for me.

Whoever the CSK is, I just think that the attacks were planned but the unlucky victims just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time (for the CSK). The CSK may have benefitted from having access to a building in Claremont nearby to where the victims were attacked...but who knows! I am soooo looking forward to following this case while acknowledging the loss of the victims and being respectful to the associated families.

Again, thanks for all adding to this Websleuths thread over the years....it's been great reading it all.

All of the above are just my opinions.
Click to expand...

Welcome CyberRH! [emoji1309]
Great stuff having new people contribute!
[emoji1360][emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]


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Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
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Spooks-R-Us said:
What does a 'callover hearing' mean please?
Click to expand...

In general terms a 'Call over' is the collective word for a mob of lawyers (for and against) and alleged offenders, in a court room all hoping they will be called up first by the judge and given a trial date. I don't think it is compulsory for the alleged offender to be there, it's more a presumption that both sides are ready for trial.
 
Kambo said:
Exactly. Given the track record of our police and questions regarding recent DNA testing and handling of evidence why would he talk. It found guilty he is never getting out on parole no matter what he says or does. Play dumb until the end and hope they stuff it up like they have so many times before. Make them put all the cards on the table.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Over the years since LW was cleared, I have mused about the fact that the police's misplaced fixation on him could provide reasonable doubt for any CSK accused, and especially now that LW is dead and cannot be called to testify.


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Akai said:
My thoughts exactly.

Over the years since LW was cleared, I have mused about the fact that the police's misplaced fixation on him could provide reasonable doubt for any CSK accused, and especially now that LW is dead and cannot be called to testify.


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There is still the tiny matter of DNA......


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