Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

Discussion in 'Serial Killers' started by enzeder, Jan 23, 2016.

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  1. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    Maybe. It's a stretch to put LW in a Commodore. Possible but unlikely. Personally I'm sceptical about the Commodore fibres. I think there's just as much chance macro are trying to give the impression to a POI they are on the wrong trail.

    1. JR's body lay outdoors through winter weather right next to a creek (i.e. she was in a spot where water would run into the creek) for 54 days. I've previously researched and posted the data on how long fibres would stay on a body after contact and the general consensus by experts is a few hours. This was 54 days and it was claimed there was so much fibre Macro were able to determine she can't have been sitting in a seat normally (i.e. she was either in the back of the station wagon or on the floor).

    2. Apparently these fibres were misplaced and only discovered during the 2004 Schramm Review. A review that only uncovered a handful of things to investigate. Then we're expected to believe they misplaced it again. I can understand it getting lost early in the investigation (over 100k bits of evidence) but a second time when they only hand a handful?

    The whole Commodore fibre thing doesn't pass the sniff test. I'd like to get a bit more confirmation before I buy into this one.
     
  2. 88mph

    88mph Member

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    I'll have to challenge you here Bart.

    Have you been to the JR site? It isn't a creek. It's a wetland at best. There would be no water running past her.
     
  3. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    1. I haven't been to the site
    2. But I know there is a water way right next to where she was dumped
    3. I'm also aware that there's not usually water in it
    4. But, a water way is a water way and any rain will run off and end up in that waterway. So any rain in the near vicinity naturally moves downhill to the lowest point which is in that ditch/waterway. Jane was dumped a few meters away so run off is moving past her and into that ditch.
    5. Anyone living on a sloping block away from the road will know rain water has to go somewhere. It goes downhill and collects at the lowest point. If a block slopes towards the street then the water runs onto the street and into the council drains. If the slope is the other way and there's no sufficient drainage then there will be a damp point somewhere where water collects. The point being, that the water moves downhill.

    JR creek.png

    JR creek b.png
     
  4. GreenDevil

    GreenDevil New Member

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    Who believes one or more of the following scenarios:

    1. CSK stalked his victims in a vehicle and then approached them in the vehicle offering a lift? CSK unknown to victims.
    2. CSK just happened to be driving past and offered his victims a lift? CSK unknown to victims
    3. CSK met the girls during the night of their death and later offered them a lift?
    4. CSK waited in certain locations for the girls to approach, then abducted them (blitz attack)?
    5. CSK stalked his victims then somehow followed them in a vehicle then abducted them (blitz attack)?
    6. CSK was a person of apparent trust, famous, taxi, police or other and offered the girls a lift?
    7. CSK just randomly drove around between midnight and 2am offering lifts until he got a hit, no pre planning?

    Please reply with the numbers of each scenario of if I haven't covered it, please enlighten me as to your own scenario.
     
  5. Peter Kurten

    Peter Kurten Member

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    My response is 1, although I firmly believe that MM is the CSK and that MM knew of JR through either a close proximity of work or home locations.

    I believe he parked in a side street and waited for girls to leave the venues and gauged their behaviour in view of accepting unsolicited rides. I believe he was some sort of mobile technician or commercial tradesman.

    The creek some of you speak of is more of an irrigation channel. There is and was a 10 inch PVC pipe running underneath the road there as well.
     
  6. Parkie

    Parkie Former Member

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    Irrigation Channel? It is wetlands. The SCS would videotape suspects in Claremont. Especially from a vehicle in the slightly higher carpark in Leura Ave when they turned in from Stirling Hgy. Lets just say they knew he was rocking up soon. Err minutes before. The detectives would identify suspects at the Conti by sight. Guess they like a pint too. Looks like they had already seen the MM video. But where is the missing videotape? Maybe some of you who have heaps of time on your hands can look into the disappearance of the woman from the same place that JC went missing from.The Parmelia Hotel. Find the same bridge & who knows. Seems plausable.
     
  7. Sutton

    Sutton New Member

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    That's not a nit pick. That was a big mistake. I corrected it in the link. I'll post the corrected PDF in the media thread. Thanks for catching that.

    I don't know how it compares to other suburbs or places. I've been trying to look it up, but most of the statistics I can find include all sexual assaults (date rapes, child sex abuse) for whichever area.
     
  8. Sutton

    Sutton New Member

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    I vote number four, but he probably drove around and followed victims on occasion. I think he might have tried to talk to or offer a ride to some of the victims as an initial approach.

    "Hi, need a ride?"

    "No thanks."

    At which point he'd quickly immediately attack and subdue the victim. This would still be a blitz attack, not really a con. And some girls probably did accept a ride from him.

    What's your vote, GreenDevil?
     
  9. Parkie

    Parkie Former Member

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    JC Probably be more likely to be not far from her car. Within 4 km at a guess. A 1990 UBD & a search of all carpark bushland along the nearby coast could be the go.
     
  10. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    I lean towards #1 but could be any of them and he could have used more that one method.

    I think with SS the CSK was waiting in his car on Stirling Rd waiting for someone to separate from the pack, or possibly on St Quentins (between Stirling Rd and CBV) and soon after she walked past he cut through Coles/Fossey's car park, onto Gugeri and then left onto Stirling Rd.

    I think with CG he could have either been waiting in his can on Freshwater Pde or spotted CG in Bayview Tce then drove across Stirling Hwy on Bayview Tce, u-turned and left onto the Hwy.

    I think the CSK predertimed the nights he would strike and used a combo of stalking and positioning to get to his prey. JR might have been as simple as the CSK being out that night to pick up, was driving laps of Claremont looking for a girl and happened upon Jane.

    I've mentioned this before; it makes no sense for SS to be a blitz attack. It just doesn't add up. A serial killer would wait in the car park behind the Christchurch Centre for a girl to use that phone box. Grab her as soon as she exited the phone box and take her to the car park (10m away). Waiting on the other side of the road is a low percentage play. And if he did start on the phone box side then he would have grabbed her before she crossed the road.

    For JR to have been blitz attacked she would have had to have walked away some distance. Maybe the other side of the train line or maybe Rowe Park. But for this to happen I think there would have been confirmed sightings (more than early media reports saying she may have been sighting near Dalkeith Rd).

    CG is the one with the highest chance of blitz attack. There's the bushes right next to the footpath with a car park behind it, CCGS, and Corry Lynn Rd. All good abduction points. The problem is the 2008 report of her talking to the occupant/s of a car.

    If the CSK did Karra then it's almost certain he changed or mixed up his abduction method.
     
  11. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    There's not a lot and out of that not a lot that doesn't see regular traffic.

    - Sand dunes between Cottesloe tennis Club and Peter's Pool carpark
    - Small bushland around Vlamming Memorial at Cable station (also extending to trainline)
    - Bushland behind CCGS playing fields
    - Bold Park
    - Shenton Bushland
     
  12. northwest

    northwest New Member

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    3 for me……but I don’t think that he just met them on the night of their disappearance/death. The ability for this person to simply melt into the fabric of the pub/club scene at the time and the surrounding suburbs is his biggest asset. Was he known to them to be considered more than just an occasional acquaintance? Was he simply the “regular” who when talking to girls that had a drink in them he was able to solicit where they lived and how they were getting home?
    He still would have had to get lucky in leaving before the girls and following them to then offer a lift. Although I prefer the girls getting into a car with no struggle etc. rather than them being pulled into a car as potentially this is messy and could result in get away or being witnessed, especially the CG scenario. If we are to believe that she was seen by the guys at the bust stop and then they looked back and she was gone. I havenever given this sighting much weight to be honest.
     
  13. hideoustroll

    hideoustroll Member

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    Regarding the Commodore fibres, wasn't it written somewhere that their position led investigators to believe she picked them up while being facedown or otherwise NOT seated normally in a car? If so, they were probably in her nose/mouth/airway and protected from the elements until her body was found.
     
  14. billywhizz

    billywhizz Member

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  15. northwest

    northwest New Member

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    What amount of fibres would normally come away from the seat normally in "normal" use??
     
  16. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    AFAIK it only said that there were a large quantity of fibres that showed JR couldn't have been sitting in the car normally. Most assumed this to mean that when she was transported from the kill site to the dump site she was naked and lying down. To get fibres inside orifices she would have had to be breathing so that means maybe tied up. Fibres would likely last a lot longer in orifices but my understanding is the girls weren't tied up.
     
  17. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    Persistence of trace evidence such as hair and clothing fibre

    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/for..._review02.htm/



    Transfer and Persistence of Hairs

    The primary mechanism for the transfer of trace evidence is described by the Locard Exchange Principle (Locard 1930). Although there will always be a transfer of trace evidence, in some instances, the material exchanged may be too small to detect or may be rapidly lost. Numerous authors have addressed the transfer and persistence of fibers in forensic cases, including Kidd and Robertson 1982; Pounds and Smalldon 1975a, 1975b, 1975c; and Robertson et al. 1982.

    These authors investigated the mechanisms involved in the transfer of textile fibers and the persistence of the fibers after the transfer occurred. Although these studies primarily involved textile fibers, wool fibers were used in these studies; therefore, the results of these studies also apply to human hair. These authors found that the number of fibers transferred depended on the amount of pressure involved in the contact and the duration of the contact.

    With regard to persistence, these authors found that the nature of the recipient garment, the size of the transferred fiber, and the movement of the recipient garment had a dramatic effect. If the garment containing transferred fibers was worn, most fibers were lost rather quickly (within a few hours). If the garment containing transferred fibers was held in a fume hood, the rate at which fibers were lost was much lower.

    Gaudette and Tessarolo (1987) stated that many of the variables affecting fiber transfer and persistence were also important in hair transfer and persistence. In order to document some of these variables, they conducted several experiments on hair transfer. They identified two mechanisms of hair transfer: primary and secondary transfer.

    Primary transfer can be either direct (from person A’s scalp to another location) or indirect (from person A’s scalp to person A’s environment and then to another location). Secondary transfer is an indirect transfer (from person A’s environment to person B’s environment to person C’s environment). The authors demonstrated that secondary transfer of human scalp hair can and does occur in casework situations and that persistence of the transferred hair is similar to that previously found for fibers by Pounds and Smalldon (1975a, 1975b, 1975c). Robertson and Somerset (1987) conducted a similar study on persistence and found comparable results; that is, most transferred hairs are lost with normal wear after about three hours.

    Quill (1985) recovered 81 hairs from his clothing over a 31-day period. Of the hairs that were suitable for microscopic comparison, all had been transferred from family members. Quill concluded that for a foreign hair to be present on clothing, close personal contact is required. Simons (1986) found that although most hairs are removed from clothing during the laundering process, some hairs do remain on clothing and hair transfers can occur as a result of the laundering process.

    Peabody et al. (1985) investigated the shedding of hairs into various types of headgear. They found that the number of hairs shed varies with the type of headgear worn and with the individual. They also noted the importance of collecting head-hair combings, because the nature of the hairs shed in their study were more similar to the naturally shed hairs encountered in combings than to the hairs encountered in plucked, known head-hair samples.

    Based on these studies, it can be concluded that it is reasonable to find hair evidence in forensic cases. Hair is ubiquitous in the environment and, therefore, may be transferred during a crime. However, it is imperative for proper and timely collection of evidentiary materials, including known hair samples, to occur if hair examinations are going to be valid, reliable, and meaningful.
     
  18. northwest

    northwest New Member

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    Bart

    Thanks that was interesting. Entirely possible that fibre transfer occurred but I am sceptical about this evidence. Do WAPOL have a suspect but in someway need the public to place them in this vehicle?
     
  19. hideoustroll

    hideoustroll Member

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    It's possible she was incapacitated in some way other than binding. Or that she was simply threatened to stay down. Assuming Jane consciously got into the car, how long would it have taken before she realized she wasn't being driven home? It seems the killer must have subdued the girls in some way, either physically or via threats unless he killed them very close to the initial abduction point.
    Does anyone know if the fibres were from the upholstery or the carpet?
     
  20. Bartholemeus

    Bartholemeus Former Member

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    I have no idea.

    The things I'm not willing to take media and police at face value on;

    1. DNA. Police have refused to comment either way but BC claims they have DNA. I used to 45/55 on them having DNA. Currently I sit at about 40/60.
    2. Karra to CSK link. I definitely think the CSK committed a number of sex attacks prior to the murders and this one is right up there in terms of probability. But I'm 50/50. I really have no idea.
    3. Commodore fibres. Sceptical. Probably 40/60 on this one.
    4. Car seen talking to CG. 70/30. I don't think they had an upside to providing misinformation back in 2008
    5. MM footage missing front view of MM. 70/30. The time swaps suggest they would have had a front view.
    6. That police believe the girls were blitz attacked. I think only media have said this so unsure whether police believe it or not. Either way, I think the girls got into a car. 30/70
    7. That police have cloth line used on Karra victim and it's impregnated with ink. At first media reports suggested the victim thought it was telephone cable and they didn't know what it was. Now media say they have clothes line. I have no reason to believe it's not true and put this down to police never confirming or denying what the Karra attacked used to bind the girl.


    There's a lot of unanswered questions and my gut feelings are inconsistent - as in they contradict each other and some contradict my preferred POI. I think Occam's razor will be the answer to 80% of the questions and the other 20% will be a bit more left field. Which 20% is left field is anyone's guess.
     
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