Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

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CSK?

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i doubt it.
A Telstra car has stickers on the side and I believe BREs had a roof rack woth ladders, very recognisable and something that if any witness saw they would be able to remember. Frankie1972 was at one possible cabduction site, we should ask him if the car he and his mates saw had these identifiable characteristics.

The commodore being an abduction vehicle has not been proven at this stage, it's possible it was just used as a dumping vehicle (which has been proven by fibers found on JR), looking all kitted out in work gear would be a great cover when travelling in the early hours of the morning.
 

CP345

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i doubt it.
A Telstra car has stickers on the side and I believe BREs had a roof rack woth ladders, very recognisable and something that if any witness saw they would be able to remember. Frankie1972 was at one possible cabduction site, we should ask him if the car he and his mates saw had these identifiable characteristics.

I take your point but I think if I was a killer I might have taken the ladders and racks off. Just my opinion as I'm not a killer but surely you'd think of this if you were.
 

Trueblue2017

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That I can do as we have discussed it elsewhere.
One of them was a band called Black Rose (king diamond). You can google it and read the lyrics, but it;s not for the faint hearted.
Other interests were: GothicandSteampunkraw, gothworlds2

Those were the three things that seemed a bit different, mixed in with a few main stream i.e simply red, country and western, marylin manson.

Someone has also suggested maybe he liked orienteering? Given locations of bodies and a GPS link found on the net by same name in Perth.

I would agree too a SK, all this does not make. But was just curious to know a bit about that side.

sorry never heard of those bands. Only 3 in amongst mainstream stuff still doesn't make you SK. I listen to some Metallica but it doesn't make me a head banger, I also like some classical. He may just have eclectic taste in music.

i don't think he ever went orienteering, my understanding from talking to the family is a gps was taken by police and the storage was empty, maybe something he wanted to do but just never got around to doing, IMO.A bit like my near new dusty rollerblades, 15+ years old now.
 

Sloofski

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In all honesty even when faced with absolute proof it is not unusual for family and friends to still deny the evidence. This has been the case with many serial killers/murderers families and you can't blame them, imagine finding out a person you loved and cared for, whom you considered a kind caring person had committed violent offences. You basically go through the same stages of grief but not always ending up at the final stage of acceptance.


Questioning as to if BRE had access to other white commodores doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me and certainly doesn't rule out having found other evidence in the already searched vehicle, it is simply good police work, if presenting a vehicle to a jury as the vehicle that was used in a crime the last thing you want the defense to claim is that "no, the defendant owned/drove this vehicle" which could put doubt in the minds of a jury. they are simply tying up all loose ends.


Lack of evidence at the Madora Bay property would only be a level of concern if this was known to be a place where the murders occurred, as theorized it's more than likely the murders took place a lot closer to the abduction point and bodies disposed off shortly there after.


keep in mind a lack of evidence is certainly not an indication of non guilt. DNA, geographical location, same vehicle identity as fibers found on a body, relationship break downs around the times of the attacks are all pointing to the alleged having committed the crimes. Then there is non public evidence, the KK victim (witness) and anything else the police have found or have had phoned in since the arrest. At this stage from an outside perspective there is a lot more evidence to suggest guilt rather than innocence.


I cknow you being someone close to BRE and/or the family have doubts and I can completely understand this, I just hope you too can understand why some of us feel the way we do.
Agree who says they found nothing, they are continuing to build a case of which they have withheld charging anyone officially with in the past despite having POI's. I'd imagine they are just dotting the i's and crossing the t's to cover the possibility of getting off on a technicality.
 

Spooks-R-Us

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That I can do as we have discussed it elsewhere.
One of them was a band called Black Rose (king diamond). You can google it and read the lyrics, but it;s not for the faint hearted.
Other interests were: GothicandSteampunkraw, gothworlds2

Those were the three things that seemed a bit different, mixed in with a few main stream i.e simply red, country and western, marylin manson.

Someone has also suggested maybe he liked orienteering? Given locations of bodies and a GPS link found on the net by same name in Perth.

I would agree too a SK, all this does not make. But was just curious to know a bit about that side.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Diamond

"...King Diamond follows Satanism, which he does not see as a religion, but a philosophy by which he lived even before reading Anton LaVey'sThe Satanic Bible.[SUP][12]...."[/SUP]
 

gajafar

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sorry never heard of those bands. Only 3 in amongst mainstream stuff still doesn't make you SK. I listen to some Metallica but it doesn't make me a head banger, I also like some classical. He may just have eclectic taste in music.

i don't think he ever went orienteering, my understanding from talking to the family is a gps was taken by police and the storage was empty, maybe something he wanted to do but just never got around to doing, IMO.A bit like my near new dusty rollerblades, 15+ years old now.

Yeah ok I'm the same with music and like metal/classic but this is kinda extreme, their album https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rose:_20_Years_Ago
they didn't have any other records in the name of Black Rose.
Not much else really on his FB , just heaps involved in little aths, a PC user group, Eagles group (mad WCE fan) and gaming as you say. Oh and yodahoff.
 

Trueblue2017

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The commodore being an abduction vehicle has not been proven at this stage, it's possible it was just used as a dumping vehicle (which has been proven by fibers found on JR), looking all kitted out in work gear would be a great cover when travelling in the early hours of the morning.

not that all discounting your theory however to get legitimate authorisation to work outside of normal business hours, and hence be looking at overtime is a hard ask fo most government companies, including Telstra. And I know your not saying he sought legitimate overtime as a cover.
How many Telstra workers do you see working after hours, and through the night, hardly ever. It would in fact even potentially be suspicious, IMO.
most likely looking like he had just gone straight to the pub after work and was on his way home.
 

SN76

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Appreciate all the input Frankie n Trueblue thanks ��
 

Trueblue2017

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In all honesty even when faced with absolute proof it is not unusual for family and friends to still deny the evidence. This has been the case with many serial killers/murderers families and you can't blame them, imagine finding out a person you loved and cared for, whom you considered a kind caring person had committed violent offences. You basically go through the same stages of grief but not always ending up at the final stage of acceptance.


Questioning as to if BRE had access to other white commodores doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me and certainly doesn't rule out having found other evidence in the already searched vehicle, it is simply good police work, if presenting a vehicle to a jury as the vehicle that was used in a crime the last thing you want the defense to claim is that "no, the defendant owned/drove this vehicle" which could put doubt in the minds of a jury. they are simply tying up all loose ends.


Lack of evidence at the Madora Bay property would only be a level of concern if this was known to be a place where the murders occurred, as theorized it's more than likely the murders took place a lot closer to the abduction point and bodies disposed off shortly there after.


keep in mind a lack of evidence is certainly not an indication of non guilt. DNA, geographical location, same vehicle identity as fibers found on a body, relationship break downs around the times of the attacks are all pointing to the alleged having committed the crimes. Then there is non public evidence, the KK victim (witness) and anything else the police have found or have had phoned in since the arrest. At this stage from an outside perspective there is a lot more evidence to suggest guilt rather than innocence.


I cknow you being someone close to BRE and/or the family have doubts and I can completely understand this, I just hope you too can understand why some of us feel the way we do.

I did state that it was very much an assumption, TWICE! Good policing is a hard concept to use in regards to this investigation thus far and that is a fact that the police have proven themselves.

perhaps they have learnt and are just doing due diligence, I have my doubts for more reasons than currently stated.

good night all.
 

Molly Dooker

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In the documentary (Murder Uncovered) last week, the police were amazed at how Birnie was able to take them directly to the right spot in the bush, in the dark, where he had buried the victims. So KK might not be as disorienting to the CSK.

Maybe down to differences in brain wiring... I pride myself on my good spacial awareness but there must be other things required to navigate this terrain after dark.


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Perpendicular

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Yeah ok I'm the same with music and like metal/classic but this is kinda extreme, their album https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rose:_20_Years_Ago
they didn't have any other records in the name of Black Rose.
Not much else really on his FB , just heaps involved in little aths, a PC user group, Eagles group (mad WCE fan) and gaming as you say. Oh and yodahoff.

The topic of music has come up a few times now. IMO there isn't anything on BRE's FB page that indicates a leaning towards anything Satanic, on the contrary, I'd suggest his 'liked' artists are particularly mainstream and tame. I'm not sure how 'into' King Diamond he was/is, but by the time the later 90s rolled around (period of the most violent CSK crimes) there was far more controversial music around (Nordic Black Metal etc.). There is no indication of any such leanings on his FB page of being a genuine metal fan, let alone a 'satanist'. Additionally, any self-respecting metal fan would likely never also be pressing 'like' on Simply Red or any other similar artists. Personally, I see BRE as likely to be a man of fairly mainstream tastes, I imagine him driving around in the late 80s and 90s listening to 96fm and Triple J for anything slightly more 'alternative', enjoying sports and outdoors activities. I don't see him as being the least bit 'creative' and certainly not likely to be drawn into an esoteric belief system, I expect his thinking to be far more concrete and 'black and white' from what little we currently know about him. IMO, overly rigid black and white thinking would actually be a more significant risk factor than a leaning towards metal or alternative music. Just my own thoughts on this.


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Zedx

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About 7 yrs ago I was looking for proof of a 'satanic site" in the Mundaring Darlington area. In the day time there was nothing to see. but at night the car headlights picked up faint luminous paint by driving through the markers we found the spot safely. Clues are often hidden in plain sight .

WHOA!! Can you divulge the exact address? and why you were looking for it?
 

BReVeTTe

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extract...> the fact that LE agencies can access DNA profiles from private companies to help apprehend offenders must be very very stressful for every single (and aware) criminal across the entire world!
Imagine family dinners on Sunday nights when Nanna says she's gonna start tracing their family's ancestry! Her SK grandson across the table couldn't be more worried! Next thing - Nanna takes a holiday to the land of the long white cloud.......

Nanna goes to New Zealand?

And meets, the Nannup 4, and Elmer Crawford?

nan would probably be just trying to protect her own by locating a scapegoat ... although each person's DNA is unique, there is increased probability of finding an exact match amongst maoris [emoji851]
(unable to cite source - but learnt this from a DNA doco)


[emoji887]
 

Ecat

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How many Telstra workers do you see working after hours, and through the night, hardly ever. It would in fact even potentially be suspicious, IMO.
most likely looking like he had just gone straight to the pub after work and was on his way home.

Thanks Trueblue2017 for your insights. Whilst I agree in 2017 it would be odd to see a Telstra car driving around at all hours, I don't think it would've struck me as odd in the 90's - given the monopoly it had in Australia for all those years. I believe the government started privatising the business in the 90's as well. Just IMO.
 

CSK?

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not that all discounting your theory however to get legitimate authorisation to work outside of normal business hours, and hence be looking at overtime is a hard ask fo most government companies, including Telstra. And I know your not saying he sought legitimate overtime as a cover.
How many Telstra workers do you see working after hours, and through the night, hardly ever. It would in fact even potentially be suspicious, IMO.
most likely looking like he had just gone straight to the pub after work and was on his way home.

If BRE is the CSK then getting proper authorization and following rules to use a work vehicle after hours doesn't seem like a priority for someone willing to abduct and murder 3 girls. Anyone outside of Telstra without any knowledge of polices, procedures and working hours wouldn't think anything of seeing a telstra vehicle at 3, 4 or 5 am in the morning.
 

CSK?

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What are your other theories as to why BRE is innocent? do you have some evidence or logical theory as to why you think he is not guilty, that you would be willing to share? I had assumed it was because you had some close connection but your statement of "other reasons" has now intrigued me as it implies my initial reasoning may not be the sole reason why? surely you would want to put these theories out there to "prove" his innocence?
 

Trueblue2017

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I take your point but I think if I was a killer I might have taken the ladders and racks off. Just my opinion as I'm not a killer but surely you'd think of this if you were.

Last one tonight.

that is a fair bit of unnecessary work to do when he had his own personal car at the time. IMO
 

CSK?

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Last one tonight.

that is a fair bit of unnecessary work to do when he had his own personal car at the time. IMO
Using a personal vehicle opposed to one used by other employees makes deniability that much harder. And you would be suprised as the lengths some people would be willing to go to keep their identity hidden when committing murder. Also makes driving from the dumpsite straght to work in the early hours of the morning a little less complicated.


If a trial happens and DNA evidence is proven, would you then accept his guilt or do you think the police managed to plant his DNA in 3 separate crime scenes spanning a 10 year period?
 

janwa

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WHOA!! Can you divulge the exact address? and why you were looking for it?

This is going off topic I was just trying to show one method of finding a pre planned destination I have often wondered if there were markers in Wellard. I have a feeling that Sarah is there and Ciera was taken to Pipininny because Jane had been found. I don't want to talk about that particular case but there was a mosaic playground nearby rumoured to be the site when in fact the site was well into the trees. A useful book about Satanists and Witchcraft in Australia and Perth is Other Temples Other Gods it mentions the girl found murdered in the area in 1980 and the fact that she was being initiated into a coven.
 

MyLeftFoot

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Using a personal vehicle opposed to one used by other employees makes deniability that much harder. And you would be suprised as the lengths some people would be willing to go to keep their identity hidden when committing murder. Also makes driving from the dumpsite straght to work in the early hours of the morning a little less complicated.


If a trial happens and DNA evidence is proven, would you then accept his guilt or do you think the police managed to plant his DNA in 3 separate crime scenes spanning a 10 year period?

IF police planted the DNA, there is only ONE crime scene...and that is in the lab! If police hadn't planted the seed pods in the Lloyd Rayney case, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.
 
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