Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

Discussion in 'Serial Killers' started by bessie, Jan 2, 2017.

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  1. Bunnie

    Bunnie New Member

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    So...to recap this weekend in a nutshell..
    Drink spiking happens.
    Rips happen.
    JC car damage happened.
    JC car was wet.
    Bouncers were getting regulated.
    People received stamps at nightclubs.
    (People still are stamped at nightclubs).
    Drugs are bad.
    Rape is bad.
    Murder is bad.
    If I want to muse out loud about my thoughts and theories I need to get verify as a psychologist or tag with references of research to prove the thoughts are backed by previous research.
    Did I miss anything?
    (Ohh...and we still don't have any new information.)
     


  2. 7SJ707

    7SJ707 Active Member

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    It was a frustrating and annoying thing to be stranded on Perth Streets in the early morning hours, after leaving licenced premises. Waiting, and waiting for a taxi you had called that could take 5 minutes to come or ,an hour, or three hours ..,or be hijacked by a better fare on the way and not turn up at all...and your still patiently waiting for it... you just didnt know.....
    Getting cold...busting for a pee.... things to do the next day...need to get home and get to sleep... lousy taxi service like this AND having to pay through the nose for it when and if it does ever arrive......
    What were the other options as you stood on the side of that dark and lonely road waiting..?..what other vehicles were out and about at that time of early morning that might offer a safe ride home.....?
    The odd police patrol...hmm certain stigma attached to getting taken home from the Pub in a Paddy Wagon....
    Carloads of drunken yobbos......dont think so....
    Early Morning bread, milk and newspaper delivery vans...possible but these guys are no nonsense with tight schedules to keep...seldom offer,,,
    Pub and nightclub employees who have just clocked off on their way home too going my way?...presumably sober,,,friendly, may have seen them earlier in the night...possible,,
    Chubb Security patrolmen doing the rounds of local businesses in late model vans sticking the company cards under the doors of clients to prove they have checked the premises.... two way radio crackling away back to "base",,heavy duty patrolmans torch on the dashboard....
    Factory workers either starting a nightshift ,or on their way home from one......
    Hmmmmmm,,,,,......
     
  3. meticulously

    meticulously Former smartphone blogger

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    Thanks DRT very interesting , Oceanic
    Rubbish dump discovered in 2010 .

    Also of interest ;
    In 1988 little was known about the leeuwin current.
    A newspaper print, posted recently on here wrote ;
    "police are watching the coast as far north as two rocks"
    [​IMG]

    I identified that as potentially problematic because currents most likely took anything southward , imo)

    The wind maps i provided will allow you to plot your own estimated route using winds and currents .
    I concluded that no debri went northward , thats if there Was anything actually set adrift .

    [​IMG]
    23rd june 1988 #12hrs
    Example of how to read wind map .
    marked to identify a fresh wind (see arrows).
    Just two of the 44 wind maps that detail the wind every 6hrs from 15-26th june .

    I think anything that was adrift would have washed ashore by the 28th june 1988 approximately .
    To the South of cottesloe within 100 kms , more likely within 20kms.
    ------------------------------------


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_Gyre

    Picture of gyre ;
    https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcn...arried-mh370-wreckage-all-way-reunion-n400776
    [​IMG]

    i dont think the Indian Ocean Gyre would have an effect nearshore to Cottesloe beach because the anti clockwise circulating Gyre is situated far west of Rottnest island , i highly doubt its relevant to this incident . MOO
    .
     
  4. Spooks-R-Us

    Spooks-R-Us New Member

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    Does anybody think the alleged CSK moved any of the bodies post mortem?

    Maybe JR had 2 resting sites and that's why her body was not discovered earlier? Did the alleged CSK possibly move JR?

    Just a wild guess considering there were no instances of Wellard locals reporting unusual odours in the area like passers-by reported around Pipidinny D-site.

    And in my understanding of the two D-site areas, Wellard was less remote than Eglinton, and JR's D-site backed onto private property.


    ............................................
    Posts are purely my own opinion unless otherwise stated with source links.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
     
  5. JoWa

    JoWa New Member

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    There was one other thing that I found interesting but not sure if relevant, maybe you or innerchild would know.

    The rip research paper mentions that the rip pushes along the groyne and then meets with the current going north about 10m from the end of the groyne. Was this around the same area the car was located?Could it have been trapped in that area due to the rip and currents converging and bashed around?

    Also curious about the article that states lights and ignition on, this to me says it was driven in as opposed to dumped.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  6. meticulously

    meticulously Former smartphone blogger

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    Jowa: "Could it have been trapped in that area due to the rip and currents converging and bashed around? "


    Yes it could be trapped and being cycled around .

    Quote:
    A single drifter was deployed at Cottesloe during the time 12:30 to 15:00.
    Total significant wave height was 1.3 m, (Table 4.1) and the tide was falling (Table 4.3). Wind direction was variable with a magnitude of approximately 5 knots.

    "The drifter recirculated several times however it was
    Repeatedly Washed Into The Groyne."

    [​IMG] this is an image of the groyne and the "drifters" track plotted .from the pdf.

    http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/592af80f86e49/pattiaratchi_etal_2009.pdf

    After reading the documents i have an updated my version of the rip current .
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This version is based upon the conditions on the days 20-23rd june 1988 accordingly with the weather / wave data at that time .

    The car (imo) was found inside the red mark but im uncertain where excactly. Probably about in the middle going by the awfully blurry or non existent good photos available . [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. meticulously

    meticulously Former smartphone blogger

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    For anyone who missed that chart
    Representing the groyne and currents
    Its marked here;
    [​IMG]

    Quote :
    "One of the reasons for the failure
    of a groyne has been attributed to the influence of rip currents
    adjacent to the groyne resulting from the deflection of the
    longshore currents by the structure on the upstream side of the
    groyne" (Komar, 1998)

    "The offshore extent of the current increased with an increase in
    wave height, which was attributed to higher rip current speeds;
    the numerical modelling results, which showed the offshore
    current strengthened with an increase in the energy flux,
    supported this theory." (Unquote)

    Meaning that the rip currents increase as wave velocity & power increases
    .
    http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/592b09503e71c/pattiaratchi_etal_2009.pdf

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] the groyne seen in the background indicates the position where the damaged car was winched into..
     
  8. meticulously

    meticulously Former smartphone blogger

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    Is there anyone who can help to obtain a clear vision of this picture and whatevers written and marked ?
    it might be important .
    Its been of interest since these were posted but this one picture is still unresolved as to what it shows..[​IMG]
    -----------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    "beach searched" after (friday 24th june) storm blew onshore gales that searchers hoped would wash in evidence.
    .
     
  9. no name

    no name Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak of my experience and what I saw or knew about back in 1999 - 2002/03 in Perth. As I said, we were very aware of it & it happened to more than a few of us. As far as I know, no one ever reported it to authorities or attended emergency departments. As I also said, it was rampant & not only was being reported on in the media constantly, there were warnings on posters in pub/club toilets about it too. In the 2 incidences I wrote about that I believe my drink was spiked, I have no doubt at all that it was. The first time, I had attended a work function (no alcohol) met a friend for dinner (no alcohol) drove my car home & walked to the nightclub. I ordered 1 beer which I didnt finish, then switched to a vodka soda. It was after this drink that I felt strange & had a sudden urge to flee. I realised upon descending the stairs of the nightclub that I wasnt going to be able to walk home so jumped into the waiting taxi. Within 10mins of that drink I was home in bed where I slept in excess of 24 hours. Upon waking, I felt spacey & disoriented & do not remember actually arriving home. I also had a full answering machine of messages from worried friends that I had slept through. At the time, I figured I must've have had a virus & it wasnt until the second time it happened did I make the connection on account of the way that I felt in the days after. On that occasion, a Sunday, I also hadn't had too much to drink as I had work the next day. I didnt make it & yet again I slept through numerous calls from work wondering where I was. The non drinker in our group that night told us that he had never seen anything like it so he brought us all to my house then stayed to watch us for several hours to make sure we were ok. Myself and the other female passed out in the car, 2 males passed out soon after arriving home & none of us recall leaving the nightclub. He had no idea what had happened and it was his words that I used when describing what a person looked like when they'd had their drink spiked, "possessed", which is what we concluded must have happened. Although I have several friends who claim this also happened to them, and I have no doubt that it did, there was only I other occasion that it happened whilst I was present in that moment & it was the immediate change of my girlfriends behaviour that made me suspect her drink spiking, so I got her straight out of the club and home. She went from sitting quietly having a conversation with me to jumping around like a lunatic, smashing glasses off the table and pushing anyone & everyone within arms reach away from her. I physically had to restrain her to move her closer to where a bouncer we knew from frequenting the club was standing and he grabbed her & carried her out. She punched him numerous times in the process and kicked at anyone else we passed. This is behaviour I have never seen her engage in prior to or since that night and I have known her in excess of 30 years. As soon as he put her down just inside the front door, she turned and launched herself across the counter of the girl working on the door/cloak room and attempted to grab hold of her. I'll never forget his face when he asked me "what the hell is wrong with her" as he dragged her outside, mainly because she headbutted him in the process and he had blood streaming from his nose. When I said "i think her drink was spiked" he turned to the door man & his exact words were "f. . K not again". He told me "she'll be alright but are you going to be ok with her" i told him "yeah, i think so". She hadn't had much to drink so I took her straight home. She tried to jump out of the taxi we got into as soon as it started to move so I asked him to lock the doors & not 2 minutes later she was passed out. The cab driver helped me carry her inside, where like me, she slept for the best part of the next 24 hours & woke up wondering what had happened and why she felt so out of sorts. Her last memory was sitting speaking with me in the club & it wasnt until she went back & the bouncer confirmed what I had told her about her actions that night, that she believed it because it was so out of character. Now, as had been the experience of myself & my friends in that we were ok after these incidents, I think the general consensus about drink spiking at the time, certainly amongst the people I knew anyway, was that medical attention was usually unnecessary. I did not witness any suspected drink spiking of people who had consumed alot of alcohol beforehand so I dont know how that may have influenced the outcome or any decision to seek help.
    However, on the contrary, had I been witness to a friend with persistent uncontrolled vomiting or the like consistent with having consumed too much alcohol, I would be inclined to assume that they were suffering from alcohol poisoning & would be far more likely to have immediately taken them to a hospital where at the very least, they could have been monitored to ensure that didn't pass out & asphyxiate on their vomit in their sleep, they could have received something to make them stop vomiting & they would be quickly rehydrated via drip as they would probably have needed to stop purging anyway.
    So, Justified, whilst it is absolutely your prerogative to not believe me when I tell you thats exactly what happened and the sole cause on each occasion was our drinks were spiked & you are entitled to assume it was more than likely that we were just drunk, I can 100% categorically assure you without a doubt, that was not the case at all. I might also suggest that if most people simply pass out after drink spiking, perhaps this may be the major factor contributing to you having seen few true cases come through emergency & be far closer to the truth of the matter as opposed to incidences of drink spiking simply being a myth. Please keep in mind too that the report you referenced was based on 18mths of results from 2 places, published in 2009. Not only is that data at least 6-8years later than the years Im speaking about, it also doesnt include any data from the closest hospital to both Claremont/ Subiaco & the place that anyone in the Western Suburbs would have routinely attended, namely SCGH. Nor is the data from the alternate hospital you might attend from Cottesloe, namely Fremantle. I'm sure your data is accurate for that timeframe & locations but Id put money on it not reflecting in the slightest what was actually occurring in local pubs/clubs late 90's early 00's & certainly not the experience of all the hospitals either. I'd also wonder if you were actually working ED at that time too? Just MO based on personal experience & what I know to be the reality of the time. Apologies for the lengthy, somewhat irrelevant post.

    On a side note, might I throw Chloroform into the mix perhaps? Connection to both printing and a quick way to subdue a victim.
     
  10. no name

    no name Well-Known Member

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    The top photo has an arrow indicating "car found here".
    Cottesloe beach where Julie Cutlers Fiat Sedan was found this week.

    The second photo says "her distraught father, Roger, and uncle Brian, walled ip amd down the beach hoping Friday night's heavy seas had washed up a clue to what happened to the 22 year old woman".
     
  11. no name

    no name Well-Known Member

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    Met, you posted a photo before with an arrow showing the small amount of reef inside the groyne. From what I can tell from my crappy photos, the arrow indicating where the car was located was very close to the arrow you placed on your picture. How accurate it is is anyones guess. I still stand by my recollection of a photo being published of the car in the water prior to it being towed to shore. I'll try to get into town some time this week and see if I can find it. If all else fails, I get you a better shot of the groyne photo and somehow get it to upload. I also stand by my shorts being ripped clean off during a severe dumping at Cott in relatively calm seas so I and dont think BLF stood a chance
     
  12. justified

    justified New Member

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    Noname, chloroform defo a consideration. I appreciate your conviction about your experience but I do not accept drink spiking is rampant. Unfortunately most people have little understanding of what effect alcohol actually has on the body. You may well have had a legitimate experience but I don't know. However, you have demonstrated true strength of character by speaking your truth respectfully on a couple of postings. Unlike JoWa and Innerchild who have accused me of denigrating victims. I have never done that and made ZERO reference to women who claimed sexual assault in connection to drink spiking. That is always taken seriously and dealt with respectfully at work. That is different to the hordes of young people who routinely attend ED drunk.....then abuse you, urinate and vomit on you and worse because they have to wait while you are dealing with heart attacks, DV assaults, suicide attempts, road trauma..... There are certain people on here who dismissed the seriousness of the Huntingdale victims experience which I immediately challenged. No apology from them for their ignorance. On a final note noname
    anybody who works in emergency services, paramedics,police, hospitals see the very, very worst of human nature and what people do to themselves & others. Perhaps I am just over the aussie culture of getting shitfaced.
     
  13. Canning Vale

    Canning Vale Active Member

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    Snipped
    707,
    Many thanks for the interesting post which I've culled. Does anyone know the answer to this:

    During the 1990s If BRE had a second job as a security patrol officer, would he have needed a police clearance?

    If a police clearance was required he wouldn't have been able to work under a false name.
     
  14. Innerchild

    Innerchild Active Member

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    Actually I think this is a humorous way to break the tension Bunnie. Victim blaming and personal attacks are not needed. As for myself not feeling fragile, always try to deal in the facts and have encouraged people to challenge the physics as well as getting my math checked have taken on every comment and congratulate others on the standard of research.
     
  15. Innerchild

    Innerchild Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    I haven't finished reading the thesis yet but my basic understanding is that it was to study beach erosion and he found drift or currents traveled westwards or out to sea along the lee side of the groyne and then in aclockwise circular pattern in from of the beach once going past the groyne, similar to the head of a rip pattern. It seem to me from met's research that the main current is the southern coastal drift current met identified from the Leeuwan and would trump this circular pattern at most times. Olsson (2004) did say the maximum speed of his drift current was 2 m.s and I'm still reading to see how often this max speed occurred.
    If you look at Olsson's (Fig 3.2) photo attached above you can see the mid beach reef almost all covered in sand and I guess this erosion of sand from the reef beacuse of the groyne placement would have been what he was trying to show.

    Ignition on and motor on to me are entirely different. Ignition on tome means battery engaged so lights could be turned on, not the motor on. So the car would have had to be pushed.
    News paper articles already discussed in previous pages, which I'll find link for.
    Summary [​IMG]

     

    Attached Files:

  16. DRT

    DRT Well-Known Member

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    From what I can see from the article is BLF was found between 35 and 50 metres (recent article quotes 50 metres) from shore. I was trying to determine the length of the groyne which from a reference is about 100 metres. So the BLF was found possibly up to about half the length of the groyne from the shore. This aligns with the picture and would be dependent on how the cycle of the tide for distances from shore.

    Article length of groyne 100m
    https://beachsafe.org.au/beach/wa/cottesloe/cottesloe/cottesloe-beach
    Recent quote 50 metres from the beach
    http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/natio...s/news-story/66be6757b29872fee76a78308987688d

    https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20161231/281509340854115
     
  17. DRT

    DRT Well-Known Member

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    RSBM

    I am quoting Met's article with regard to your comments. The quote says "Police forensic tests have shown that when the car entered the water the ignition and lights were turned on, the front driver's side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked."

    Tests could show that the headlight switch (for want of a better word) is rotated to headlights. There was no mention if there were keys in the car still but I would be guessing that if the ignition was on that the keys would be in. I wouldn't think that you could take the keys out and still keep the ignition on. The wording could also mean that the motor was running initially and then moved into neutral and pushed. JMO.

    The other thing about the back door being locked. Am I correct in thinking that most cars of that time required the back doors being unlocked only from the inside, so to let someone in the back seats you would have to unlock from the inside so the door handles on the outside could be used?
     
  18. Spooks-R-Us

    Spooks-R-Us New Member

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    Regarding roof damage to JC's BLF - If the waves smashed the car into the Cottesloe groyne, I think the jagged rocks would leave damage in more panels than just the roof. For example, lots of rough, jagged and uneven holes in random places ALL over the car, AND crushed in side panels.

    For the roof to be the ONLY significantly damaged part of the car, IMO I think the BLF was thrashed around in the surf by the waves, impacting only under water sand banks. Therefore the roof caved in fairly evenly from repeated rolling back and forth in the rough surf. And the side panels almost unscathed.

    No impact with groyne or pylon. Just roof collapsing from landing upside down while being dumped repeatedly on sand banks in rough seas.

    [emoji305][emoji305][emoji305][emoji594][emoji305][emoji305][emoji305]

    (Was there other damage to side panels I am missing?)


    PS: A 'BIG WAVE' [emoji1309] to say thanks to Meticulously for confirming the existence of extreme weather and surf conditions at the time of JC's disappearance.



    ............................................
    Posts are purely my own opinion unless otherwise stated with source links.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
     
  19. 7SJ707

    7SJ707 Active Member

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    Thank you CV. The focus of my posts was actually the as yet still unidentified MM in the JR security footage and a new possible explanation for what he showed her on his upturned left wrist that could have made for a quick " in " joke between them- "ie, pretending that she is now the bouncer and it is her turn to inspect his stamp for a change.
    I have also theorised what possible vehicles might be cruising around Perth Streets in the early morning in a position to offer girls a lift home they might accept,based on my knowledge of the "scene" at the time.
    I have deliberately tried to keep away from linking any accused person to any of this conjecture and i think that isvery important at this stage. No one has been found guilty of the Claremont crimes nor has anyone been charged in relation to SS and it is possible the perpertrator is still at large in the community.
    In relation to your particular interest amongst my theory I would encourage you to do some research on which Company was one of a certain Telecommunications providers top Corporate customers in 1996. If you find out please just keep it to yourself and dont tell anyone- For Now.
     
  20. The Weaver

    The Weaver New Member

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    I said some time ago that I wouldn't post again but I need to reply to this. I'm not sure how you deduce that the battery needs to be engaged to turn the lights on. In all my many years I've never seen a car that needs ignition on to use the headlights. Ignition on and lights in the on position clearly indicates that the thing was driven into the sea. The only real speculation is whether the driver left the vehicle before it entered the water or stayed with it and expired and was lost to the ocean. As for the damage to the roof etc, in my misspent youth I (in company) flattened the roof of many a paddock basher by simply jumping up and down on it. The theory that this thing was somehow crushed in a car crusher then mysteriously transported to a boat to be dumped at sea is absurd. The simple logistics, the number of people needed to be involved and the risk of detection make this impractical at the very least. The reality (in my view) is that either JC drove the thing into the ocean and was lost or the vehicle was left nearby unsecured and was stolen by others, knocked around then driven into the ocean. The waves and rocks did the rest. There is no mention of the keys, but ignition switches in those days had a 'off' position and a 'lock' position. If it wasn't in the 'lock' position, the vehicle could be started without a key
     
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