Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by marlywings, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. FigTree

    FigTree Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully snipped by me...

    Ausgirl - I think the same -
    I got the impression that the tape was at the end of the handle, wrapped so it would fill the gap and make the wedge tighter.
    But even using string and tape doesn't guarantee a really tight wedge - both those materials compress easily under load.
    I dont know - just seems to easy a way to fail as an ideal way to jam a knife in solid.
     


  2. MsAnais

    MsAnais Verified Clinical Psychologist (AU)

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    I personally suspect that she was stabbed with the knife by another person. I don't believe it was in the wall when she was 'impaled' on it. I think someone stabbed her and THEN wrapped it and fitted it in the wall (as part of their bizarro cover-up plan).

    The twine is WAY too clean IMO. As SouthAussie said, surely there'd be blood splatter on the handle as well? It's white!

    They wrapped it to fit it into that wall. And I think they wrapped it after they killed her.

    JMO.
     
  3. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    And speaking of blood spatter ... if a knife slowly goes in, I could possibly expect no spatter, just leakage (as in a cut). But surely this knife would have gone in quickly - a stab - in either scenario. If Jenny was trying to impale herself on a knife lodged in a wall, or if someone else attacked her.
    Think of all the murder scenes where someone is stabbed. Spatter, spatter, spatter.

    I so wish someone had actually investigated ... instead of 24 cops having a browse around. :tantrum:
     
  4. FigTree

    FigTree Well-Known Member

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    yes Isisrising, I'm thinking along those lines.
    Though I think (JMO) the handle was string bound before the knife went into Jenny - the tape put on after that to wedge it into the wall.
    The knife blood smears look as if the knife has been handled at some stage with the blood (wet) running back towards the handle - so I was thinking the knife was jammed in the opening with the tip pointing up, and then once it jammed in, the knife was positioned lower, and then lowered again, so the point was in the direction Jenny was going to lie/was lying in.
     
  5. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    I was also thinking about the 24 police officers who apparently attended the scene. We were wondering why so many. Then I thought of what happens when a police officer or family member is killed, a zillion police from everywhere arrive to help their fellow officer. In a town the size of Townsville, is it possible that the same thing happens if something happens to a prison guard? Are prison guards and police officers very closely linked in towns the size of Townsville (as opposed to cities)?
     
  6. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    I just wanted to comment on the hand. The one mentioned, the right hand I believe it was. About it was rotated clockwise with the palm facing upward. If anyone has seen a crime photo of it, or a drawing of it do this yourself and tell us if it resembles the position of her hand. Take your right hand and put it behind your back up as high as you can, as if someone was forcing it behind you and up to somewhat subdue you. Would this be the position her hand seemed to be in. I wonder if that hand got to that position before, during and after death. Just speculating on the assumption as a possible she was push on to the knife by someone whom was walking her to it with her arm behind her back, and there hand on her mouth to keep her from screaming or biting there hand. The wrappings around her head would have helped keep her sounds to a muffle. But the dog heard everything and as the neighbor reported was making crying sounds and not aggressive barking sounds. So perhaps the dog with his hearing and sense of smell knew the people there and did not sense a threat and acted accordingly.......
     
  7. MsAnais

    MsAnais Verified Clinical Psychologist (AU)

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    Good thinking, MrTT. Especially in regard to the dog not making aggressive sounds. And the arm twisted up behind her back.:facepalm:
     
  8. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    Looking again at the photo of the knife wedged into the wall (and not meaning to harp on the subject :blushing: ) ... but see the way the screen has a white frame fitted on the far side, so there are no gaps between the screen and wall? There should be a frame fitted on the near side too, where the knife is. Otherwise the security screen potentially can be jimmied off. I'm just wondering when that frame that should have been there, to preclude any gaps, was removed ... if it was ever there.

    http://images.smh.com.au/2014/07/17/5602582/LW-20murder-20140717004213879182-620x349.jpg

    And that is all else I'll say about it .. promise! :)
     
  9. PlainJaneDoe

    PlainJaneDoe Verified expert in neuroscience

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    It just seems so unstable...I am having a really hard time envisioning the whole scene.
     
  10. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl ...

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    Sushi knife! Good one Figgy! I think you nailed it! The example blade you posted is pretty much identical in shape.
     
  11. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    Thank you for posting that picture. The blade length not including the handle is about 10 3/4 inches in length. And it does give the appearance she slid off the knife. I don't think so. I am guessing the knife came out with her and it was put back into the window at an angle to give the impression she slid off it. Not only that but I zoomed in on the knife and a part of it by the base appears to have been wiped clean. You can read the stenciling on the blade after it was wiped. I think someone forgot and left prints and wiped it down then put it back into the window at an angle. It was secured but not cemented.

    Can someone comment on the dept of the wound from the coroners report. If the dept of the wound was more than 7 3/4 inches than there should be more blood on the blade going back towards the handle. Which is why I believe it was wiped before being put back into the window at an angle. Just a theory based on speculation she was murdered outside where found.

    As far as the 5x5 plywood. That would have been large enough to lay her on it until the bleeding stop. So not have to clean up much. Just discard the plywood.

    Goodnight. Thank you again for posting that photo of the knife.
     
  12. laserdisc10

    laserdisc10 New Member

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    Watched a crime video on Youtube last night, one of the Town and Country series, entitled, 'New and Final A Town and Country Murder Alethea Taylor Murder Full Episode'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWCbJTlSpoE


    Neither here nor there I suppose, but after about the 25 minute mark or so, investigators discovered one or two thousand phone calls to the husband's mistress and some texts, all of which were way, way above any phone calls and texts he'd sent to his 'missing' (murdered) wife

    It reminded me of PC
     
  13. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl ...

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    I don't know how many times I've dug myself into a particular case and then 'happened on' snips of information or ideas from the shows I subsequently watch which help me think it through - even fictional ones! A line or a scene helps me see a bit of evidence differently, or the crime scene in a new way.... or even just seeing a precedent.. it's awesome when that happens. Thanks for the link, laser!
     
  14. laserdisc10

    laserdisc10 New Member

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    Hey, you're welcome, Ausgirl. The Jenny Cook case gets frustrating. Gave myself time out last night. Until the police feel sufficient pressure to re-open the almost non-existent investigation into Jenny's murder, the frustration mounts, doesn't it

    I'm convinced there should be an investigation not only into Jenny's death, but into the way police handled/mishandled it. It's a scandal, far as I'm concerned. Licence to murder, basically, if you're 'connected' up Townsville way

    There's a far more substantial circumstantial case re: Jenny than Allison, imo. And GBC got a life sentence (fake life sentence is how it should be described, imo, considering the 'life' was immediately downgraded to potential parole in 15 years)

    The media's taken it to Qld police via several hard-hitting articles, particularly Sydney Morning Herald

    The coroner did her best

    Aussie's are discussing it actively right now in at least two forums

    Qld police want it all to go away and have said they intend to close it down soon


    What's it going to take? Any MPs interested?
     
  15. FigTree

    FigTree Well-Known Member

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    A few days ago I posted about the Finding of The Inquest of the Julie-Anne LEAHY and Vicki ARNOLD case -
    The death of the women were classified as a suicide - and then on the 3rd Inquest 21 years later, it was made evident it was a Homicide (March 2013).

    There was a piece on the last page from the Coroners Findings which I wanted to post here from the LEAHY/ARNOLD case, as I think what the Coroner said below is food for thought - in any case similar - such might even be the case with Jenny's suicide evaluation.


    Findings of the inquest into the deaths of Vicki Arnold and Julie-Anne Leahy
    http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/176134/Arnold-Leahy-findings-final.pdf

    DELIVERED ON: 1 March 2013

    Page 119
    14. Riders
    Section 43 (5) authorises a coroner conducting an inquest to make riders
    designed to prevent recurrences of similar occurrences. The effective
    investigation of criminal offences is key to preventing their recurrence.
    Accordingly, I have considered whether changes could be made to improve
    the way that might happen in connection with violent homicides.

    -----
    Page 121
    14.2 Active theorising - suspending judgment
    It seems clear that a major problem with this case stemmed from the first
    response police officers leaping to a conclusion and acting on it without
    sufficient reflection. It is easy to understand how this can occur: it is
    something we are all guilty of from time to time. It is also something that might
    be more commonly engaged in by police officers of necessity. An officer who
    challenges a known violent criminal who sees the criminal reach under his
    jacket has very little time to consider whether the criminal might be about to
    pull out a gun, a knife or his handkerchief before diving for cover. But on other
    occasions careful reflection and evidence based decisions are essential. The
    challenge is working out when speedy, intuitive decisions and actions are
    appropriate and when slower more deliberative thinking is needed.

    In his recent book Thinking, fast and slow,296 Nobel prize winner Daniel
    Kahneman discusses how we can teach ourselves to know when we should
    rely on our quick, intuitive responses and when we need to put the brakes on.
    Kahneman’s work focuses on general decision making and people’s response
    to statistical information. He acknowledges that experienced practitioners in
    many fields can, through extensive application of professional skills, develop
    accurate intuition – or more accurately they develop huge data banks of
    memory they can quickly access in similar situations. But when that fails to
    provide the answer they can fall into error by relying on premises that are
    usually right, but not always so or may simply be influenced by subconscious
    bias. Undoubtedly police do lots of great work when relying on “a copper’s
    hunch” or a gut feeling, but they can also be led into irrecoverable error as
    this case shows. They should perhaps consider information arising from other
    disciplines to reflect upon how they can avoid the pitfalls of over reliance on
    professional instincts.

    In an even more recent work, Crucial errors in murder investigations,297 the
    author examines how police jumping to conclusions can miss vital evidence
    as a result of what he terms the “theory - dependence of observations.” Mr
    Duhs’ central thesis is that if investigators too quickly fix on or commit to a
    theory explaining a crime they risk failing to see evidence that may disprove it
    and are liable to subconsciously distort evidence they do find to make it fit into
    the framework of their favoured theory. I consider there are indications that
    happened in this case.

    He recommends police services examine their detective training courses to
    assess whether they teach their officers rational criteria to equip them choose
    between contending theories and to continue to gather and analyse all
    evidence that might be relevant until it is shown not to be. Of course
    competing theories have to be abandoned as evidence disproves them but it
    is essential that not be done precipitously. I commend that recommendation
    to the QPS.

    I close this inquest.

    Michael Barnes
    State Coroner
    Brisbane
    1 March 2013
     
  16. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl ...

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    It's pretty plain that were several officers who were doing their best to do their jobs properly, and I think this frustration is evident on the inquest. Rock and a hard place for those guys. I feel sorry for them.
     
  17. catswhiskers

    catswhiskers Active Member

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    But usually though, any spatter is the result of a knife being withdrawn quickly and blood flicked about off the knife, especially if there are repeated stabs(and definitely not claiming to be any expert on the topic). If a knife was thrust in, I don't think there would necessarily be any spurts or spray of blood outwards while the knife was still in situ. Not sure about what happens if it is slowly withdrawn - though a lot of blood pools inside the chest cavity in this kind of wound. Maybe it would be more of a trickling flow as SouthAussie suggested.
     
  18. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    I think the family needs to push very hard and with persistence to a lot of people (not sure how many, if any, of these people they have approached).

    Local MP
    Victims of Crime Qld
    Qld Premier
    Attorney General's Office


    I was reading about the 2004 death in custody of a Palm Island man. Due to community backlash, the Attorney General overrode the Qld DPP and pushed matters forward. Even brought in out-of-state officials at certain times, instead of relying on Qld ones.


    "However, he found that Chris Hurley punched Mulrunji in the face and abused him while attempting to get him into the station and found that police colluded to protect Chris Hurley. A CMC report leaked to the media reportedly recommends that 7 officers will face charges."

    http://wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Palm_Island_death_in_custody
     
  19. MsAnais

    MsAnais Verified Clinical Psychologist (AU)

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    That case was the subject of a brilliant book by Chloe Hooper and subsequent documentary, "The Tall Man".

    It was an outrageous cover up, that thankfully got brought to light.

    May the same happen here.
     
  20. Cattail

    Cattail New Member

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    Yes I agree. I don't think there would have been much blood if any if the knife remained in place. When my youngest put a rake through his foot - it was almost all the way through, the skin on the top was bulging out with the point of the tine -there was NO blood. They cut through the metal tine to separate it from the rest of the rake to take him to hospital with the tine still in as this was preventing blood loss.
     

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