GUILTY Australia - Lisa Harnum, 30, killed in 15-storey fall, Sydney, 30 July 2011 #3

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by marlywings, Nov 27, 2013.

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  1. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    Perhaps Josh Rathmell expressed his concern / fear for retribution to the police. Perhaps the police perceived his situation as high risk. It would have been in the best interest of the police and prosecution to provide support / protection for their star witness. Key witnesses in horrific cases have had their identity changed under witness protection programs where a high risk factor exists. Most likely for exceptional circumstances only as a complete identity change can be very expensive.
     


  2. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    The gold ring on Lisa's right hand ring finger looks like the same ring as RL displays in her sultry smoking interview.
    Not unknown for some men to give the exact same piece of jewellery to each girlfriend. Be it a particular ring or a necklace or some trinket.
    My understanding of this phenomena is that is nothing particularly sinister, just having an each way bet so to speak.
    And the gifts of jewellery, or trinkets buys people, right?
    This way SG has bought two women, for the price of two simple bands of gold.
    Having said that, (and in light of his mean, nasty and uncharitable character), I wonder if Lisa was wearing a ring when she was murdered.
    And to date RL has displayed no sympathy or empathy or anything at all towards Lisa. No scruples either, but that is another matter.
     
  3. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    Any ex girl-friend would probably be wanting to keep a very low profile for a very long time, well at least until he is well and truly locked up behind bars. And even then, if he is ever released, their very lives would be in danger. Even 30 years along the track. How DARE she (I expect there are plenty) reveal bad things about SG! Any one who does so will pay. And pay like Lisa paid.
    Interesting that Josh Rathmell was guarded so carefully. I too wondered if SG or one or more of his thugs would take out a hit on him. (As evidenced by the behaviour displayed through out the entire ear biting episode. Where he called in his **** mates.)
    Clearly the police considered it necessary to "look after" the key witness. And addressed the matter accordingly. This is a person who carries out his threats. His chief weapon is "Look out, you do as I say, OR ELSE"
     
  4. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    Yep - he would have been a low enough character to do that. However, what needs to also be considered is that SG returned to his family home at Merrylands (fairly quickly after the murder from the sounds of it). He was subsequently charged and kept in custody from 4th August. The question is, when did Joan Harnum arrive in Australia ? Who was allowed to take charge of Lisa's personal belongings and items from the apartment ? We now know SG's brother removed the Hard Drive, but what else ? At the time of death, was Lisa wearing jewellery ? If yes, who would that jewellery have been released to ? Who has her engagement ring ?
     
  5. Fuskier

    Fuskier Well-Known Member

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    It is rumoured that the drug dealing world is cut-throat, clandestine and dangerous. Did an alleged cocaine dealer send some thugs armed with axes to collect an unpaid debt from a purchaser? This is the kind of world drug dealers operate within. What was Lisa doing associating with a member of this kind of world? Just what did she come to know about this world? Was she at risk of exposing what she knew if she left SG? Did SG fear this?
     
  6. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    It's scary stuff alright. I'm inclined to believe that he kept LH separate from his dirty dealings on the side. Some text messages that he sent to LH that ordered her back to the apartment makes me believe this.
     
  7. icu nurse

    icu nurse Verified registered nurse (AU)

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    Unfortunately, they don't wear signs. A good high school friend of mine started dating an older guy she had met at the gym. He ran a "restaurant", was charming, had cash. We were late teens / early 20's , and a boyfriend who would shout all of us drinks when we went out, or pay each cover charge for all of us seemed like a dream come true.

    He seemed generous, and stable, and a stabilising force for her - she was the wildchild - leaving school to do hairdressing then a number of other short lived careers. He enrolled her in a Business Admin course at Tafe, and said when she had finished that, she could take over the books.

    The restaurant was in Kings Cross. One of those charming places where the waitresses were considered to be eye candy and dessert. The first time she worked on the floor there, it was because he was "desperate" - it was a big, important function and he was let down. Then it was a harbour cruise, because she had been so popular. And she was asked to give a few people a few parcels along with their champagne.

    It wasn't long before it was pills to keep her happy and partying. Then it was cocaine. We tried to put on the breaks, pull her out, and we were accused of interfering and being parents. We held on, not speaking out against him. Trying to keep contact at any cost.

    She was completely roped in. Then it was ice. Crystal Meth. And suddenly there was another force at play. She had nothing outside of him, and a very strong physiological pull to stay.

    The story eventually gets a happy ending, but there were 5 years lost, and a few times we almost lost her too. We became the enemy. When she started to show bruises, it wasn't his fault. She had done something wrong.

    A million miles away from the headstrong, carefree girl we knew. When exit plans were made, there was extreme fear. Of what she knew, but also of what she had done within that relationship. It wasn't cut and dry.

    Not pulling direct parallels to Lisa here, nor saying she used drugs or was however innocently involved in his business dealings.

    Just trying to say that you can wind up being associated with "those people" without even knowing until it's too late - and stamping the foot of morality isn't really an option. I know, because I was associated with them too. Which is a far cry from everything about who I am - but done for the safety of my friend, and for myself.




    A couple of years ago, I took a working holiday break, and worked in the states. I was living in a strange area, where one side of the road was in extreme poverty, and the other side - not quite affluence, but a far cry from the poverty witnessed as soon as you headed south on Citrus.

    There was a mexican supermarket chain - Gardenia's, that I shopped at. In the carpark one night at about 11pm, a boy of about 6 was standing outside a 4WD (sorry SUV!) and said something that I couldnt make out.

    I approached. I noticed there were two adults in the 4WD. He repeated "Excuse me Miss, would you like to buy some ice?"

    In that situation, I was indignant enough to call the police once I got back to my apartment (about 100m) away, because I wasn't involved. The carpark was dark. I walked home a different way. I shopped at Vonn's instead for the next month. I changed my hairstyle.

    That was a "stranger" style involvement, and yes, while it was in a country where guns are prolific, I still altered my behaviour to protect myself while doing the right thing - just to be safe.


    When we were most desperate in trying to get help for our friend, we contemplated having her arrested. Of tipping off the police as to the next function. We wanted her to escape, we were out of options.

    We didn't. Because the risk to her would be too great. Not in terms of jail time. But the very real threat of what people who are protecting their illegal financial interests would be capable of.

    We're doing a great deal of sharing in this thread, and I'm sorry if this was TMI or too tangential. I just wanted to note that it's not all that easy to steer clear of "those sorts of people".

    They don't wear signs. They have carefully constructed normal exteriors. And by the time you know what they do, it's too late to extricate yourself with ease.
     
  8. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    ICU Nurse, thank you for the time line summary. It certainly puts things into perspective, (even without the precise watch times. In fact exact times seem almost irrelevant, in light of the weightier matters presented) Awesome work!

    Secondly thanks for sharing your friend's story which I read with baited breath and dry mouth. Perfectly relevant here in my opinion.
    Please though may I please entreat you to elaborate on a couple of matters.
    Did your friend manage escape successfully and absolutely?
    Does he remain in any form a lethal obsession? Or is he goneski? The relationship kaput, finished, no more, dead and buried?
    And is it too early to ask if she has found her SELF again? And maybe even a proper meaningful relationship with a normal person?
    Thank you again for sharing. Aptly demonstrates the seductive manner in which a beautiful young intelligent girl may become entrapped in a toxic relationship.
     
  9. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    I'm still puzzled as to why there was (apparently) a hard drive in the ceiling space ... recording nothing, or something. :confused:

    Lisa evidently knew about the cameras - how could she miss them? The police took the obvious hard drive/recorder. So why hide a hard drive in the ceiling? I don't get it.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that there may not have been a hard drive in the ceiling space. I am wondering if they said they removed a hard drive from the ceiling space because somehow police/landlord could see someone had been up there recently and questioned Anthony because he had been in the apartment. But perhaps he was removing something illegal that was hidden there (illegal substances, stolen goods - goes with Gittany's prior form) or something far more valuable (lots of cash).

    Then a hard drive was suddenly produced to try to substantiate the story.
     
  10. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    Good finking SouthAussie ! If the pinhole camera recorded the struggle outside the door, where did they obtain that footage from ? Probably the harddrive that can be seen in the pics of the study. Then why would a separate hard drive be needed or even exist ? I never thought of that but it makes very good sense. Money, drugs, weapons ? And there would have been limited opportunity to remove 'whatever' was up there given that the apartment would be leased to new tenants. So, if there was no hard drive, that makes his brother a liar. Whether it makes the IT friend a liar is another thing because he may have been presented with any old hard drive to check over to make the story seem genuine. :snooty:
     
  11. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    OK Sleuthers...... I wonder if SG's mobile phone was ever checked ? Where is his mobile phone ? Did he get rid of it before it could be checked. The reason I am curious is because the text messages that were included as evidence seem to have been retrieved from JH's phone or LH's phone or (I suppose), the monitoring system ? There doesn't seem to be any wording in the Judgment that indicates 'texts' or 'calls' made from SG's phone. If SG's mobile phone was checked, couldn't it prove he did call certain numbers etc (eg. to threaten the counsellor) ?
     
  12. Fuskier

    Fuskier Well-Known Member

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    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...o-love-prisoners/story-fnet09p2-1226774064473

    The women Who love Prisoners
    DECEMBER 03, 2013 2:48PM

    WHEN Simon Gittany gets his first bag of mail in prison, the convicted murderer might be surprised to find admiring letters from strangers.
    For some women, Gittany's incarceration in a maximum-security prison last week has sent his attraction ratio skyrocketing.
    These are the women who fall in love with men behind bars and just like Gittany's model girlfriend, Rachelle Louise, many of them are attractive - even drop-dead gorgeous...Psychologist and criminal profiler, Dr Tony Clarke, told news.com.au prison relationships were often a testament to the manipulative ability of the incarcerated inmate...
     
  13. marlywings

    marlywings Former Member

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    My question is, how did police come to be aware that a hard drive had been hidden in the ceiling??.... Just going back through previous reports....

    Gittany never told police about the hidden hard-drive, which his brother viewed with a friend.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-e6frg6nf-1226755169298#sthash.Vfk6wQOV.dpuf

    The court also heard Gittany failed to tell police about an external hard-drive of the CCTV device which he kept hidden in his ceiling and later had removed.

    http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...nger-court-hears/story-fnjbnvyf-1226754151952

    So if Gittany didn't tell police...who did??
     
  14. marlywings

    marlywings Former Member

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  15. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    Perhaps police became aware through phone or prison cell monitoring at some time after SG's initial arrest (4 Aug 2011) ?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-07/gittany-asked-brother-to-remove-hard-disk-court-told/5076430
     
  16. marlywings

    marlywings Former Member

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    Bit of a mystery isn't it as Mark Tedeschi said it was fresh evidence. From that same report...

    Today Crown prosecutor Mark Tedeschi QC jumped on fresh evidence that the 40-year-old asked his brother to remove a hidden computer hard disk from the apartment
     
  17. sleepinoz

    sleepinoz Well-Known Member

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    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=[579051008817280]&action_type_map=[%22og.recommends%22]&action_ref_map

    THEY call it the danger time, when women in relationships with obsessive, controlling men are at the greatest risk.

    And Lisa Harnum ticked every box.

    Before the one-time ballerina fell to her death from the balcony of their high rise apartment, Ms Harnum was allegedly Simon Gittany's slave.

    As Mr Gittany's murder trial has heard, he told his fiancee what to wear, who to see and where to go.

    Sorry Old Story just came up on my newsfeed
     
  18. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    It is a mystery, because when I think about it, if police were bugging conversations, surely they would 'jump' at the chance to get at whatever was in the ceiling at the time they became aware.
    It's also interesting that Judge McCallum has indicated in the Judgment that she's not that interested in the ceiling's hard drive information / evidence / removal etc. It is strange though, that all the computer gear in the study room would have been removed by police AND it showed footage of the incriminating struggle, but nothing more. If SG had time to delete recordings from the study room hard drive, why wouldn't he have deleted the hallway struggle also ?
    It's hard to keep track of a liar, but in the end, it appears (so far) that his denial, lies and deception are all adding weight to the finale (sentencing). :floorlaugh:
     
  19. JudgeJudy

    JudgeJudy New Member

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    I'm only speculating here....but perhaps police overheard a conversation between the two brothers about going to the apartment and getting some 'gear' out. Perhaps the brother knew what that meant ? It may have been cryptically clued in the conversation and perhaps it wasn't until after the police pulled a run sheet of the accused, that they became aware of his drug dealing history and did a more thorough search of the apartment and realised there was some tampered area in the ceiling ? You'd think they'd be able to swab or swipe the ceiling space and test it for traces of drugs like they do through airport customs. IMO ???
     
  20. icu nurse

    icu nurse Verified registered nurse (AU)

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    I imagine the hard drive's existence would have come to light when interviewing Mr James Drivas.

    Then I would envisage police returned to the scene with that information, and the hard drive was gone. Gittany could have denied knowing about it's absense until right before the trial, when his defence lawyer suggested that they produce it as evidence because the lack of it was very damning.

    Then the story about "i got my brother to take it because i didnt trust the police" was used. Just MHO.


    Very very INTERESTINGLY from paragraph 34 of the verdict:
    The surveillance system was fully integrated. The cameras were linked to a computer in the study (exhibit 29) and also
    to an external hard drive hidden in the ceiling. Mr Drivas said that the function of the external hard drive was to retain
    the footage in the event that the computer in the study was stolen. Confusingly, however, he also said that the system
    was set up so that the images would be recorded either to the computer in the study or to the external hard drive but
    not both
    (T353.50).


    BBM.....

    The "confusingly" angle should have been pressed further. To me this screams of SG covering his bases, and thinking there was a chance he had toggled between which drive was storing the footage as opposed to turning them off completely........ and the removal was to ensure that there wasn't the murder filmed blow by blow.


    I guess it doesnt matter too much because the hard drive (and lack thereof) wasn't a driving factor in the judgement.

    But to me, an innocent man making a cuppa while a spectacular runoff and leap was transpiring would leave NO ROOM for removal of the drive.

    He "hoped the camera's were working" why then not tell the police to collect the harddrive?
     
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