Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Interestingly the PI they used was the person who runs the lost boys of TSS facebook group about the sexual assault of young boys there. If you read his comments about Marion he has had a bitter falling out with the podcast crew and suggests the son who committed suicide played a part in it all.
Not saying i agree with him but worth reading his comments.

His comments are interesting they suggest perhaps everything of value didnt go into a storage container. I can understand why Sally wouldnt want to go into her late brothers troubles or her own relationship issues with her Mum (if there were any), but it's strange the podcast declined the help of an art dealer.

 

[JLZ]

Was the house Marion sold the one she'd been living in up until then, and if so what arrangements had she made (or what plans had she mentioned) about where she'd live when she returned from overseas?

 

[Garyb]

One thing that hasn't really been gone into too much in the podcast is this most interesting occurrence mentioned in Episode 4 Taken at (4.48). Who was that policeman? And surely there would be documentation in the Marion Barter file regarding it .... one would imagine, that could lead to some answers.

" .... Sally is adamant she went to Byron Bay police on October the 22nd 1997. It wasn't long before she got a call back. The following is from Sally's 2010 police statement. 'In a matter of days I got a phone call from Byron Bay police. He had told me that he had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to know where she is, or what she was doing. I think I asked him more about where she was and how he found her but he told me he couldn't give me any more information because mum had indicated she didn't want contact with anyone. I was absolutely flabbergasted and quite upset. '"

Didnt they say in the podcast there is no record of this in police records. I also thought they spoke to the policeman who had left the police force. He had no recollection of Sally.

 

[Garyb]

One thing that hasn't really been gone into too much in the podcast is this most interesting occurrence mentioned in Episode 4 Taken at (4.48). Who was that policeman? And surely there would be documentation in the Marion Barter file regarding it .... one would imagine, that could lead to some answers.

" .... Sally is adamant she went to Byron Bay police on October the 22nd 1997. It wasn't long before she got a call back. The following is from Sally's 2010 police statement. 'In a matter of days I got a phone call from Byron Bay police. He had told me that he had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to know where she is, or what she was doing. I think I asked him more about where she was and how he found her but he told me he couldn't give me any more information because mum had indicated she didn't want contact with anyone. I was absolutely flabbergasted and quite upset. '"

Didnt they say in the podcast there is no record of this in police records. I also thought they spoke to the policeman who had left the police force. He had no recollection of Sally.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Didnt they say in the podcast there is no record of this in police records. I also thought they spoke to the policeman who had left the police force. He had no recollection of Sally.

Oh, I see, so it was confirmed that it was Graeme Childs who rang Sally on that date from Byron Bay police station; I didn't realise that, thanks Garyb .... shame he can't remember it then and no records, oh boy ......

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I couldn't find any Remakel names in the UK but Ancestry has quite a few in the UK with the name Remacle.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I personally think her plan was always to return to Australia, but to give the appearance she disappeared in UK (e.g., leaving untouched money in her UK account, return on a passport that no one would connect to her). In fact, if the bank teller in Byron Bay hadn’t confirmed to Sally that money was being removed—the search for Marion would most likely have focused on UK for a long time.

I since found evidence much earlier in this thread of the 20k having been touched and taken down to around $14,889. So at least 5k was used in thst time. It seems she must have had some means of accessing the money before her Marion passport expired. Which makes more sense than not taking some of the money while she had the chance. But her intention does not seem to have been to change her name with the bank at all...so surely the money that was taken out on the gold Coast which required identification, would have needed Marion's expired passport and proof of the name change, when she presented the valid one. Because even if you can tell the person in an out of date passport matches the person presenting it, it is still not a valid form of I. D once it has expired.

 

[JLZ]

I since found evidence much earlier in this thread of the 20k having been touched and taken down to around $14,889. So at least 5k was used in thst time. It seems she must have had some means of accessing the money before her Marion passport expired. Which makes more sense than not taking some of the money while she had the chance. But her intention does not seem to have been to change her name with the bank at all...so surely the money that was taken out on the gold Coast which required identification, would have needed Marion's expired passport and proof of the name change, when she presented the valid one. Because even if you can tell the person in an out of date passport matches the person presenting it, it is still not a valid form of I. D once it has expired.

Is it established that the reduction in account balance is due to withdrawals? It might be from fees on an inactive account. Also, I thought it was said here earlier that a passport in a new name would also display the previous name. Perhaps my memory is confusing passports with something else.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Was the house Marion sold the one she'd been living in up until then, and if so what arrangements had she made (or what plans had she mentioned) about where she'd live when she returned from overseas?

Yes JLZ, it was the Merinda Court home. She had been staying with Lesley for three weeks I think before she went overseas. She told Sally she was going to buy a place on the Gold Coast I believe on her return.

 

[Meligator]

I since found evidence much earlier in this thread of the 20k having been touched and taken down to around $14,889. So at least 5k was used in thst time. It seems she must have had some means of accessing the money before her Marion passport expired. Which makes more sense than not taking some of the money while she had the chance. But her intention does not seem to have been to change her name with the bank at all...so surely the money that was taken out on the gold Coast which required identification, would have needed Marion's expired passport and proof of the name change, when she presented the valid one. Because even if you can tell the person in an out of date passport matches the person presenting it, it is still not a valid form of I. D once it has expired.

I believe that people who change their name receive some official documentation of such, so she may have been able to access her account with Florabella Passport & such documentation. Also, is it possible the bank accepted an Australian ID (e.g., drivers license)? I believe the account in UK was somehow tethered to her AU account, so it’s possible she didn’t need the passport for anything other than plane travel.

 

[Meligator]

His comments are interesting they suggest perhaps everything of value didnt go into a storage container. I can understand why Sally wouldnt want to go into her late brothers troubles or her own relationship issues with her Mum (if there were any), but it's strange the podcast declined the help of an art dealer.

I’m not on Facebook, so can’t follow this. Can you share more?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just putting up some snippets from Episode 3, pretty interesting really, from Janice White,
sounds like a lovely lady and good friend of Marion. I wonder if a school in South Australia
had been picked out, where it was.

Episode 3 (30.10) - Teaching and Turmoil at TSS

"When Marion lived on the Gold Coast she also rekindled her friendship with her old teaching friend Janice White who lived in Sydney. The pair would visit each other and stay at each other's homes, but in the early months of 1997 Janice noticed a change in Marion's behaviour."
"She was more settled but she was getting restless again in - just in the time before she went overseas. She was actually thinking of applying for a job in a school in South Australia, so yes, it was quite obvious that she was getting restless again" …

"Janice wasn't at all surprised when Marion suddenly quit her job, but she was disturbed by the shift in her personality. 'One thing Sally has mentioned is the possibility of something having happened at her old school or anything like that. Was there anything like that, that she mentioned to you?'"
" …… and she was getting on well, but she had had - there was some staff that she wasn't getting on with. She was unhappy because she'd had a falling out with some of the staff. And again I'm not really aware of what the details of that were, you know, what - what caused that. That - yeah, I guess there was some disillusionment on her part around some of the - some of the people that she worked with."

"Did she talk about why she quit, when she did quit?"
"Yeah, she was - she was stressed. She was stressed. And she was short-tempered I guess. Yeah, she - her generosity of spirit was rather dented, I guess. Yeah, she wasn't as welcoming, she wasn't as outgoing, so yes, she was obviously under - under pressure, because she was unhappy."

"Can you give me an example of what you mean in that relation?
"Well, I know - a friend and I went to the Gold Coast to visit Marion and to visit our other friend and - and Marion was always so welcoming. And she was very short with us. And we'd often go out for lunch and we'd go and look around lovely shops and that sort of thing, um, and she didn't really - she really wasn't interested in doing anything like that. She really, um, - I guess she made us feel that, you know, we weren't welcome. And - and which was surprising for her because she was - you know she was very social, always very friendly, a wonderful hostess. So yes, so I think it was possibly my last visit, the last time I saw her before she went overseas. And - and she just wasn't the same. She certainly had things on her mind. She did have a long conversation with me about moving to South Australia and working in a school there, but she was - yeah, she obviously had things on her mind, she just wasn't the same happy light hearted generous person that - that she had been."

 

[KiwiNZ]

I since found evidence much earlier in this thread of the 20k having been touched and taken down to around $14,889. So at least 5k was used in thst time. It seems she must have had some means of accessing the money before her Marion passport expired. Which makes more sense than not taking some of the money while she had the chance. But her intention does not seem to have been to change her name with the bank at all...so surely the money that was taken out on the gold Coast which required identification, would have needed Marion's expired passport and proof of the name change, when she presented the valid one. Because even if you can tell the person in an out of date passport matches the person presenting it, it is still not a valid form of I. D once it has expired.

She must have had some trouble having a Florabella passport and a Marion drivers license and other ID ( I am assuming she had not changed her drivers license) in the UK. To rent a car in the UK with a foreign drivers license you need to show your passport, how would that work with 2 different names ?

In Aus you could probably get away with just your drivers license as proof of ID as your not expected to be carrying your passport on you when you go to the bank, DL is generally enough to remove funds from your account.

 

[JLZ]

Yes JLZ, it was the Merinda Court home. She had been staying with Lesley for three weeks I think before she went overseas. She told Sally she was going to buy a place on the Gold Coast I believe on her return.

So I guess the plan would have been that she could stay with Lesley upon her return? Because you don't just buy a house like booking into a hotel; it takes time and work.

I'm trying to test the idea that Marion didn't plan to disappear but died and her ID documents were used by someone else.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Is it established that the reduction in account balance is due to withdrawals? It might be from fees on an inactive account. Also, I thought it was said here earlier that a passport in a new name would also display the previous name. Perhaps my memory is confusing passports with something else.

I asked my friend whom changed her name by Depol, her passport only states her new name. However in the government system it will link her to her old name, but only authorized people would be privy to that.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Is it established that the reduction in account balance is due to withdrawals? It might be from fees on an inactive account. Also, I thought it was said here earlier that a passport in a new name would also display the previous name. Perhaps my memory is confusing passports with something else.

No, it seems someone earlier uploaded a file that looked like a statement of the monies sent back to CBA . It showed the 20k as the starting balance and this $14, 889 or thereabouts as the money that was unclaimed by 2004 when it was sent back as unclaimed funds.

You might be right , actually. I thought that was more with when they were looking up Florabella, on flight records that it also came up under Marion- the idea being I suppose, nobody can try and committ a crime then hide it with a name change. So really, it should hold with being able to identify yourself too. It would certainly make sense to have the Marion name also on the Florabella passport, but whether the passport had to officially be IN the same name as the bank account am not sure. I would think a place like a bank would be very strict on the identitification especially considering all the passwords and pins you need nowadays , but back in 1997 that may have been all that was needed- the previous name on the current passport. Seems that knowing more about identification processes and application proccesses in Australia back in 1997 need a bit more research. But that information is not as simple to find as you would think. Nobody usually cares what the rules WERE- would probably take contacting people who worked in banks and registry or deed poll offices at the time to know how it all worked.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

She must have had some trouble having a Florabella passport and a Marion drivers license and other ID ( I am assuming she had not changed her drivers license) in the UK. To rent a car in the UK with a foreign drivers license you need to show your passport, how would that work with 2 different names ?

In Aus you could probably get away with just your drivers license as proof of ID as your not expected to be carrying your passport on you when you go to the bank, DL is generally enough to remove funds from your account.

As far as the car goes- IF she did in fact rent a car while over in the UK (no certainty she actually did), her Marion passport I believe expired while over there. So assuming it was still valid at the beginning of her trip and - as far as we know the drivers' liscense was in the Marion name, then renting the car should not have been a problem, as long as she did so soon enough.

Thanks for the clarity to the bank- am in UK- so wasn't sure! I suppose it makes sense as you can't expect everyone to have a passport but out of a passport or a drivers license most people will have at least one.

 

[KiwiNZ]

As far as the car goes- IF she did in fact rent a car while over in the UK (no certainty she actually did), her Marion passport I believe expired while over there. So assuming it was still valid at the beginning of her trip and - as far as we know the drivers' liscense was in the Marion name, then renting the car should not have been a problem, as long as she did so soon enough.

Thanks for the clarity to the bank- am in UK- so wasn't sure! I suppose it makes sense as you can't expect everyone to have a passport but out of a passport or a drivers license most people will have at least one.

I think they cleared it up that Marion replaced her passport before she left in May and was travelling on the Florabella one. The Marion one would have been returned to her when they issued the new one but they deface them and stamp invalid on the passport, as they are only meant for your own reference to keep and can not be used as ID.

You can not enter the UK with a passport that will expire during your trip you must have 6 months past the date on your return ticket still left on your passport, this has been the case since the 70's. They check when you check in before you leave Aus and do a double check in immigration in the UK to make sure your passport complies. That is why I questioned it as I thought people where saying she has left on the Marion passport and returned on the Florabella, that just would not be possible.

Also Australians can only stay a maximum of 6 months as a tourist and have to have a return ticket, so she knew she wasn't going for 12 months.

 

[JLZ]

As far as the car goes- IF she did in fact rent a car while over in the UK (no certainty she actually did), her Marion passport I believe expired while over there. So assuming it was still valid at the beginning of her trip and - as far as we know the drivers' liscense was in the Marion name, then renting the car should not have been a problem, as long as she did so soon enough.

Thanks for the clarity to the bank- am in UK- so wasn't sure! I suppose it makes sense as you can't expect everyone to have a passport but out of a passport or a drivers license most people will have at least one.

About using bank accounts in Australia in the 1990s. As I remember, you needed ID documents to open an account, but to withdraw cash or otherwise operate it, a signature or a card and PIN were sufficient.

 

[Garyb]

I’m not on Facebook, so can’t follow this. Can you share more?

Here are a couple of screen shots. Cant find the referance to the brother, its either deleted or i assumed it from the referance to her children.