Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[KiwiNZ]

Sally talks about her mom leaving little hints or breadcrumbs, but I think the opposite could also be true. Maybe Marion used the Narita stationary for the specific purpose of misdirecting away from her flight to Seoul. Without seeing the passenger card, no one has any idea she flew to S Korea. It wasn’t even mentioned on the passenger card until a (possible) customs officer scratched out England and wrote S Korea. In fact, we can’t say for sure (I don’t think) that she flew in to London. Could she have really flown from from Tokyo to Luxembourg, for example?

The postcards place her in the UK, with the assumption she posted them. however she has gone to some lengths to create an illogical situation, name change, reentered the country without notifying her family, withdrawing cash, etc... so we can’t rule out she had someone else post them because so far everything else has defied logic.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Sally talks about her mom leaving little hints or breadcrumbs, but I think the opposite could also be true. Maybe Marion used the Narita stationary for the specific purpose of misdirecting away from her flight to Seoul. Without seeing the passenger card, no one has any idea she flew to S Korea. It wasn’t even mentioned on the passenger card until a (possible) customs officer scratched out England and wrote S Korea. In fact, we can’t say for sure (I don’t think) that she flew in to London. Could she have really flown from from Tokyo to Luxembourg, for example?

The postcards place her in the UK, with the assumption she posted them. however she has gone to some lengths to create an illogical situation, name change, reentered the country without notifying her family, withdrawing cash, etc... so we can’t rule out she had someone else post them because so far everything else has defied logic.

 

[Estelle]

I have never been a resident of Brisbane but I am a frequent world traveller. However, I live in Sydney. But my recollection of flights in the past was that Brisbane residents would have had to fly to Sydney first using a local airline.

It seems to me that Marion would not have known her date of return, so she would have booked a one way fare rather than a return fare. You can book those with different airlines. So the travel agent might have asked her where she would like to visit on her way to Luxembourg or London. She may have replied that she would love to visit Tokyo so she was booked on different one-way sectors.

Perhaps in those days, flying to Tokyo via Seoul with Korean Airlines was cheaper as they may have had a special deal at the time as it seems she did not stopover there but in Tokyo. Some airlines used to offer a free hotel room on the way in Tokyo. I did that back in 2005 flying with JAL from Sydney. Then she could have been given a different airline to fly to Europe from Tokyo whether it was Luxembourg or London or both. But I would have thought that she would be keen to meet up with Remarkel before going to London.

These days, the routing from Tokyo to Luxembourg is via Warsaw but routings change all the time. I flew Sydney to Tokyo via Helsinki to Amsterdam with a fee hotel in Narita/Tokyo on the way. To be able to get the stationery to write a letter from there proves to me she was there. How else would she have got it?

Marion's main priority, it seems, would have been to meet this guy in Luxembourg for at least a few days before going to London. The fare could have been booked through to London allowing for these stopovers as they would have been one way sectors which allow whatever time you decide in advance to stay in a place. Or she could have only booked through to Luxembourg and then got a one way fare to London from there if and when she was ready to leave.

Do we know when she arrived in London? I predict it was a short visit either because she had already booked the date of the flight to London and did not wish to change it or after meeting him, she had a change of heart. But maybe he decided to pursue her or the visit was too short and they met up again.

Her routing could have been: Brisbane-Sydney-Seoul (Stopover) - Luxembourg-London on different one-way airlines. Transferring luggage between airlines is not really a concern as you can get a trolley to help you from the baggage pickup.

I have been single again since divorce at 45yo and have met men through newspapers, singles magazines and on dating sites so I can empathise with Marion as I also wanted to get married again. But most of them were gold diggers or lied to you about important aspects so you soon realised why they were single again. I used to give singles parties for professionals in the late 80s early 90s for a living because I saw the need for people to meet in person. I am now happily single and have been travelling the world alone ever since my children left home.

 

[Meligator]

She left Brisbane on June 22 & the letter to Sally was postmarked June 30 (from Tunbridge Wales). I just imagine if she was going stop in Tokyo (or Asia) to visit the city, that she’d have shared with others before leaving (because it’s exciting).

Or, perhaps if she was traveling with someone else (someone who booked the flight), she may not have known the whole itinerary. Maybe she didn’t talk about visiting Tokyo, because she didn’t know she would be.

But if Marion was planning on disappearing, you’d think she’d want to leave as few tracks as possible (like not using hotel stationary). So I can’t help but thing that Marion used that stationary as misdirection. I mean she very well could have been in Tokyo, but was that stop part of an effort to create a false narrative.

 

[Estelle]

June 30 could have been the day she arrived in Tunbridge Wells with a couple of stopovers on the way. Perhaps Marion only stayed at the airport hotel in Narita and wrote the letter on the plane.

 

[Garyb]

I have never been a resident of Brisbane but I am a frequent world traveller. However, I live in Sydney. But my recollection of flights in the past was that Brisbane residents would have had to fly to Sydney first using a local airline.

It seems to me that Marion would not have known her date of return, so she would have booked a one way fare rather than a return fare. You can book those with different airlines. So the travel agent might have asked her where she would like to visit on her way to Luxembourg or London. She may have replied that she would love to visit Tokyo so she was booked on different one-way sectors.

Perhaps in those days, flying to Tokyo via Seoul with Korean Airlines was cheaper as they may have had a speial deal at the time as it seems she did not stopover there but in Tokyo. Some airlines used to offer a free hotel room on the way in Tokyo. I did that back in 2005 flying with JAL from Sydney. Then she could have been given a different airline to fly to Europe from Tokyo whether it was Luxembourg or London or both. But I would have thought that she would be keen to meet up with Remarkel before going to London.

These days, the routing from Tokyo to Luxembourg is via Warsaw but routings change all the time. I flew Sydney to Tokyo via Helsinki to Amsterdam with a fee hotel in Narita/Tokyo on the way. To be able to get the stationery to write a letter from there proves to me she was there. How else would she have got it?

Marion's main priority, it seems, would have been to meet this guy in Luxembourg for at least a few days before going to London. The fare could have been booked through to London allowing for these stopovers as they would have been one way sectors which allow whatever time you decide in advance to stay in a place. Or she could have only booked through to Luxembourg and then got a one way fare to London from there if and when she was ready to leave.

Do we know when she arrived in London? I predict it was a short visit either because she had already booked the date of the flight to London and did not wish to change it or after meeting him, she had a change of heart. But maybe he decided to pursue her or the visit was too short and they met up again.

Her routing could have been: Brisbane-Sydney-Seoul (Stopover) - Luxembourg-London on different one-way airlines. Transferring luggage between airlines is not really a concern as you can get a trolley to help you from the baggage pickup.

I have been single again since divorce at 45yo and have met men through newspapers, singles magazines and on dating sites so I can empathise with Marion as I also wanted to get married again. But most of them were gold diggers or lied to you about important aspects so you soon realised why they were single again. I used to give singles parties for professionals in the late 80s early 90s for a living because I saw the need for people to meet in person. I am now happily single and have been travelling the world alone ever since my children left home.

Another option for the Narita stationary may be she meet up with someone in south korea who had flown there via japan.
Alternatively she may have simply gone Seoul-Tokyo- Seoul, as she had apparently always wanted to visit Japan. Remember she had plenty of money so the extra fare may not have worried her.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I find it hard to believe that her stop over in Japan wasn’t spoken about prior to her departure considering she was living with a friend, or even whom she was flying with. Seems really strange to me no one had any idea of her flight details or where exactly she was going, even if she lied, but prior to any of this none seemed to have even asked her.

 

[Estelle]

I think it is totally bizarre and irresponsible that Marion did not leave her contact details with anyone in Australia and nobody even asked for them. This is not "normal" and leads me to question her state of mind at the time and why others were too afraid to ask.

It is normal procedure for me to give my contact details and a copy of my itinerary to each of my children, best friends and parents before every trip especially when going overseas. For example, a loved one could die and family want to be able to advise you to give you a chance to fly home for the funeral or you could have an accident while travelling and end up in hospital. It does not sound as if Marion was close to or cared enough about anyone here. Had she pushed them all away?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I think it is totally bizarre and irresponsible that Marion did not leave her contact details with anyone in Australia and nobody even asked for them. This is not "normal" and leads me to question her state of mind at the time and why others were too afraid to ask.

It is normal procedure for me to give my contact details and a copy of my itinerary to each of my children, best friends and parents before every trip especially when going overseas. For example, a loved one could die and family want to be able to advise you to give you a chance to fly home for the funeral or you could have an accident while travelling and end up in hospital. It does not sound as if Marion was close to or cared enough about anyone here. Had she pushed them all away?

Agree, I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t give some contact details or an itinerary especially when her father was sick and parents elderly.

If I am going away even my neighbors have some idea of my plans and how did not one single person even ask who she was flying with and if she had a stop over, that’s a pretty stand question. They had a farewell dinner for her but don’t seem to have asked even the basics of her trip. Odd.

 

[Estelle]

Who attended Marion's farewell dinner?

I also give my daughter Power of Attorney before I go overseas.

Had Marion given a copy of her Will to her children?

If my mother was going overseas, I would have insisted on driving her to the airport to say goodbye.

Perhaps Marion was asked for her itinerary and offered a lift to the airport but refused. Family accepted it because they had seen her with this man and assumed she was not prepared to share any information. However, as a friend, a parent or a daughter, I would have insisted in knowing who she was travelling with and having a copy of her itinerary. If she had refused, I would have asked her why not and said that it was irresponsible for her not to do so, in case of misadventure or if I needed to contact her? I wonder if Marion had always been the secretive type or it was only in this instance that she was.

Do you think we can assume that this man had brainwashed Marion so much in those last few months by offering her marriage (or whatever) (but that she was not to tell anyone about it), that she was so desperate for a life with him that she did everything that he told her to do. This would have definitely been a red flag for me. Marion seems to have been an intelligent woman so I am wondering whether she was depressed at the time to act the way she did with a man she may not have even met. He seems to have such control over her that she probably sold her house and changed her name at his request and she did not see the potential dangers?

If I had met a man who was a potential marriage partner, I would have wanted to tell everyone that I had found someone. "But just in case it does not work out, I will leave my itinerary and contact details with you." The fact that she did not do that, would normally be fear. But what fear could this man have instilled in her to make it all so secret? Otherwise, perhaps, it was embarrassment that she had met this "strange" man who had influenced her to sell her house, change her name and travel overseas to meet him. (This is assuming that he was not the same man that her daughter saw her with one night.)

 

[KiwiNZ]

Who attended Marion's farewell dinner?

Lesley loveday ( her friend she stayed with after she sold the house) Sally and her husband, had a dinner before she left for the UK. they don’t even seem to have asked the basics like you would in a conversion, she could have lied if the question had been asked, but it’s doesn’t even appear to of been asked. Like who are you flying with, are you having a stop over, where are you staying when you get there.

 

[Laughing]

Stationary takes up almost no room & weighs little. When I was young, my Grandmother traveled a good deal and would bring my sister & I stationary from hotels, airlines, and cruise ships. She could slip it into the book she was reading, no problem packing, no problem in sharing with 2 kids close in age, and Grandma & our parents encouraged letter writing.

(Which perhaps will not surprise you all.)

As @Garyb says, someone may have given her the stationary.

Or left the stationary or even someone shared it in another airport?

Agree it's really odd that so far, no one has been found who knew where she was going.

Plot device in crime stories where the woman & her money disappear, of course.

I have no idea & do feel for her daughter!

 

[Estelle]

I had not realised that Marion had divorced three times.

In 1967, Marion married A-League professional football player, Johnny Warren, and divorced two years later.

She had her first child, Sally Leydon (nee Brown) in 1973, and in 1974, her second child, Owen Brown. Marion and her children's father, Stuart Brown, married in 1977 and divorced in 1979.

In 1985, Marion married Ray Barter and divorced five years later. [1]

 

[Garyb]

Who attended Marion's farewell dinner?

I also give my daughter Power of Attorney before I go overseas.

Had Marion given a copy of her Will to her children?

If my mother was going overseas, I would have insisted on driving her to the airport to say goodbye.

Perhaps Marion was asked for her itinerary and offered a lift to the airport but refused. Family accepted it because they had seen her with this man and assumed she was not prepared to share any information. However, as a friend, a parent or a daughter, I would have insisted in knowing who she was travelling with and having a copy of her itinerary. If she had refused, I would have asked her why not and said that it was irresponsible for her not to do so, in case of misadventure or if I needed to contact her? I wonder if Marion had always been the secretive type or it was only in this instance that she was.

Do you think we can assume that this man had brainwashed Marion so much in those last few months by offering her marriage (or whatever) (but that she was not to tell anyone about it), that she was so desperate for a life with him that she did everything that he told her to do. This would have definitely been a red flag for me. Marion seems to have been an intelligent woman so I am wondering whether she was depressed at the time to act the way she did with a man she may not have even met. He seems to have such control over her that she probably sold her house and changed her name at his request and she did not see the potential dangers?

If I had met a man who was a potential marriage partner, I would have wanted to tell everyone that I had found someone. "But just in case it does not work out, I will leave my itinerary and contact details with you." The fact that she did not do that, would normally be fear. But what fear could this man have instilled in her to make it all so secret? Otherwise, perhaps, it was embarrassment that she had met this "strange" man who had influenced her to sell her house, change her name and travel overseas to meet him. (This is assuming that he was not the same man that her daughter saw her with one night.)

There have been interesting comments made on the TSS facebook page by the private investigator who Marions father got to look for her.
He talks about a toxic relationship she had with her family.

 

[Meligator]

This is interesting con artist story (link below) because of similarity between the victims actions & Marion’s (selling house, getting rid of belongings, fleeing the country). The article says this perpetrator was charged with other crime in 1997, so (depending on the Month of this charge/jailing-which I couldn’t find), it may not have been possible for him to be involved in Marion’s disappearance. Nonetheless, this type of con would explain a lot of Marion’s behavior.

Sally describes Marion, in the lead up to the trip, as seeming exhausted and distressed about happenings at the school. It’s hard to imagine someone in that state being capable of carefully crafting their disappearance so effectively. Also, the fact the Marion was hiding some friendship/relationship from her family (McDonald’s/petrol), doesn't make sense if Marion had been planning to disappear all in her own (no one else knowing about it). Why would Marion care who Sally saw her with (a moot point if intending to disappear)? — Unless the man in the car knew something. I think there has to have been someone else involved.

Category: <span> </span> | Herald Sun

 

[KiwiNZ]

May be nothing but posted to Facebook, this lady is in Queensland hospital and they are trying to find family. some speculation it could be Marion, Sally thinks not but willl have the police confirm, sharing in case anyone is interested

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Mystery surrounds elderly woman abandoned at hospital by man

CCTV footage of the moment a man left an elderly woman outside a Queensland Hospital has been released in an effort to help identify the woman.

Queensland police have appealed for help from the public after the woman was found in a distressed state at Nambour Hospital at around 12.20pm on Sunday.

The woman has been unable to communicate with staff since she was left alone on a chair outside of the hospital by the unknown man.

The woman is believed to be between 80 and 90 years old. She has a slim build and greying hair.

Queensland police told Yahoo News Australia they had received a few leads but the woman had still not been positively identified.

 

[Loxoli]

Wow, that’s very sad. I can see a resemblance, but I do realise that the chances are slim. I can’t think of many reasons why an elderly person would need to be abandoned though, which suggests something nefarious IMO. I don’t think there would be many family members or carers who could bring themselves to leave a distressed person, no matter how exhausted they are. JMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Not to go too far off topic but the 20 years or so age difference between the woman and the man who dropped her off made me think he might be her son. Maybe we need a thread for her.

Not sounding like it's Marion to me. I do see a very slight resemblance but the nose seems quite a bit different.
I do see a resemblance in the jawline.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Not to go too far off topic but the 20 years or so age difference between the woman and the man who dropped her off made me think he might be her son. Maybe we need a thread for her.

Not sounding like it's Marion to me. I do see a very slight resemblance but the nose seems quite a bit different.
I do see a resemblance in the jawline.

For me it’s the deep set eyes and the lines around the mouth, but I suspect it’s not her. There is speculation it could be Marian Wallace who went missing in 2014