Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #16

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VisitorDog

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No, there’s a new post now, not related to the earlier one that was removed, I believe.
 

MrsEmmaPeel

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CNN article but it almost seems like a foreign language translation.

Seems current. It mentions Wednesdays court not going ahead.

Not too impressed. Lots of errors and just plain getting it wrong. Incorrect Grammar and incorrect use of words. IMO.

How about this bit :rolleyes:

"If Barter had vanished without a trace, Australian police may have taken her case more seriously"
We can agree to disagree. Maybe it’s not exactly “masterful” or of use to you, but the real value of the CNN piece in my opinion is that it’s mainstream media in the US, which gets the story out to a wider audience. Today CNN, tomorrow the Guardian or NYT. It is such a huge and confusing story than any summary will have weaknesses. As for the quote you quote, I think it’s legit. Marion’s name change and return to Australia did, sadly, cause delay in the case. But then again CNN is only American journalism, so you are allowed to find fault. :)
 
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hoodunnit

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I don’t think we’re talking about the same post. The one I’m referring to is still there, not the picture they were asking for help sharpening up. I wouldn’t post about something they’d requested us not to.
My apologies :)
 

TootsieFootsie

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We can agree to disagree. Maybe it’s not exactly “masterful” or of use to you, but the real value of the CNN piece in my opinion is that it’s mainstream media in the US, which gets the story out to a wider audience. Today CNN, tomorrow the Guardian or NYT. It is such a huge and confusing story than any summary will have weaknesses. As for the quote you quote, I think it’s legit. Marion’s name change and return to Australia did, sadly, cause delay in the case. But then again CNN is only American journalism, so you are allowed to find fault.

I agree about the importance of reaching into other countries. That's the only good point in that article, imo.

I've always found CNN articles to be well written and accurate.

This is the first one I've read that to me, seems not up to their usual high standard.
 

Peralta

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Can someone please check their notes and remind me if WW and IK left Australia together or separately? I have conflicting info:

18 Jan 1970 – IK baby 1 born
15 Feb 1970 – WW & IK depart Aus, divorced
8 May 1970 – Baby 1 departs Aus for Belgium
5 Oct 1970 – IK departs Aus
 
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TootsieFootsie

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Marion's story is spreading.
A Czech publication has now picked up the CNN article.

Here is their translated version.

 

Lord Peter Flimsy

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Marion's story is spreading.
A Czech publication has now picked up the CNN article.

Here is their translated version.

Hopefully it will reach Hungary too some day soon.
 

Peralta

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The death cert states she had been here 2 years before she died in 1977.
What date do you have for her arrival?

I have following that I got from timelines floating around but there are many inconsistencies:

1976 – IK arrives in Australia again
13 Jul 1977 – IK, 31yo, found deceased in car in Aus on way home from work, myocardial ischaemia
 

gymtonic

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Can someone please check their notes and remind me if WW and IK left Australia together or separately? I have conflicting info:

18 Jan 1970 – IK baby 1 born
15 Feb 1970 – WW & IK depart Aus, divorced
8 May 1970 – Baby 1 departs Aus for Belgium
5 Oct 1970 – IK departs Aus
I have:
18 Jan 1970: IK baby IEJ Wooters born
15 Feb 1970: WW departs from Sydney
8 May 1970: IEJ Wooters (baby) departs Sydney on KL844
10 May 1970: IK departs Sydney on QF530 (but strangely she does state on the departure card that she has been in Belgium for the previous 12 months)

Another earlier date that also intrigues me is that IK herself was charged with a traffic Haulage offence in Brussels on Aug 19 1968 around the times that WW was collecting multiple traffic offences.
 
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Estelle

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I have:
18 Jan 1970: IK baby IEJ Wooters born
15 Feb 1970: WW departs from Sydney
8 May 1970: IEJ Wooters (baby) departs Sydney on KL844
10 May 1970: IK departs Sydney on QF530 (but strangely she does state on the departure card that she has been in Belgium for the previous 12 months)

Another earlier date that also intrigues me is that IK herself was charged with a traffic Haulage offence in Brussels on Aug 19 1968 around the times that WW was collecting multiple traffic offences.
Gymtonic said: but she does state on the departure card that she has been in Belgium for the previous 12 months.

Did you mean to say "Australia"?
 

Lord Peter Flimsy

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Why would IK have divorced (if she did) Mr AKA through the Hungarian authorities? Was it easy for Hungarian nationals to enter and depart from Hungary during the Communist era? Why does she return to Australia ending up with her death a year later? You could write more than a few chapters of a book just on this part of the mystery.
 

Estelle

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It has appeared to me that if they were married in Belgium not long before they left for Australia, they would have to have got a divorce in Belgium.

Or, as RB claimed he was single when he arrived in Perth, they simply pretended to be married hence a divorce was not necessary as RB supplied authorities here faked Marriage Certificate documents.

As to why IK returned to Australia ending up with her death a year later, perhaps she had already met the man (she married later) in Australia, he went over there to visit her and they decided to get married in Hungary. As he was a resident of Australia, they came back here to live. Finding a man with an English-sounding name in Hungary so quickly when you have a young baby is too much of a coincidence to me otherwise.
 

gymtonic

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Gymtonic said: but she does state on the departure card that she has been in Belgium for the previous 12 months.

Did you mean to say "Australia"?
No, my notes say that she indicated she had been in Belgium for the previous 12 months. Could have just been a misunderstanding of the question.
 

mishy66

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I have:
18 Jan 1970: IK baby IEJ Wooters born
15 Feb 1970: WW departs from Sydney
8 May 1970: IEJ Wooters (baby) departs Sydney on KL844
10 May 1970: IK departs Sydney on QF530 (but strangely she does state on the departure card that she has been in Belgium for the previous 12 months)

Another earlier date that also intrigues me is that IK herself was charged with a traffic Haulage offence in Brussels on Aug 19 1968 around the times that WW was collecting multiple traffic offences.
Yep these are correct

Baby E Wouters departs 2 days before IKWouters - IKW card says 'married' - the baby leaving with a friend of IKW ( as stated by J on podcast)

With WW departing Feb 15 'divorced'


I think her writing Belgium twice on her card was just an error and not corrected by staff.
 
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mishy66

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It has appeared to me that if they were married in Belgium not long before they left for Australia, they would have to have got a divorce in Belgium.

Or, as RB claimed he was single when he arrived in Perth, they simply pretended to be married hence a divorce was not necessary as RB supplied authorities here faked Marriage Certificate documents.

As to why IK returned to Australia ending up with her death a year later, perhaps she had already met the man (she married later) in Australia, he went over there to visit her and they decided to get married in Hungary. As he was a resident of Australia, they came back here to live. Finding a man with an English-sounding name in Hungary so quickly when you have a young baby is too much of a coincidence to me otherwise.




TAINTED LOVE EPISODE 2 :

‎The Lady Vanishes: Tainted Love (part 2) on Apple Podcasts


The family of IK employed a PI to find out who WW was – did not trust him and IK didn't tell her family she was applying to emigrate to Australia.

He was still married to his 2nd wife at the time

IK had 1 daughter and her father was WW.

She put her daughter on a plane with another woman to return to her parents in Belgium and then left for Belgium after her.

She then reunited with WW in LILLE in France (ONCE HE HAD RETURNED FROM AUSTRALIA AFTER HIS CRUISE ON THE CHUSAN WITH DIANE) and lived with him and THE BABY UNTIL just before HE WAS ARRESTED 1971.



sometime between June 1971 and her arrival into Aust she marries MJR back in Budapest, she has another baby




He isnt concerned about divorcing anyone. He is a bigamist.
Whether he did marry IK or didnt, it doesn't matter. That was the least of his concern - he was a known crimnial even back then.

If they didnt marry it would have been easier for her to marry MJR
If they did marry she could have applied for divorce herself

AS far as what date she arrived back into Aust, I go by her death cert.

If you have some evidence of another year, be great for everyone to see it.
 

Estelle

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TAINTED LOVE EPISODE 2 :

‎The Lady Vanishes: Tainted Love (part 2) on Apple Podcasts


The family of IK employed a PI to find out who WW was – did not trust him and IK didn't tell her family she was applying to emigrate to Australia.

He was still married to his 2nd wife at the time

IK had 1 daughter and her father was WW.

She put her daughter on a plane with another woman to return to her parents in Belgium and then left for Belgium after her.

She then reunited with WW in LILLE in France (ONCE HE HAD RETURNED FROM AUSTRALIA AFTER HIS CRUISE ON THE CHUSAN WITH DIANE) and lived with him and THE BABY UNTIL just before HE WAS ARRESTED 1971.



sometime between June 1971 and her arrival into Aust she marries MJR back in Budapest, she has another baby




He isnt concerned about divorcing anyone. He is a bigamist.
Whether he did marry IK or didnt, it doesn't matter. That was the least of his concern - he was a known crimnial even back then.

If they didnt marry it would have been easier for her to marry MJR
If they did marry she could have applied for divorce herself

AS far as what date she arrived back into Aust, I go by her death cert.

If you have some evidence of another year, be great for everyone to see it.
It is an offence under the Crimes Act to be married to two or more people at the same time.

This offence is known as ‘bigamy.’

The Crimes Act contains a defence to the offence of bigamy where your husband or wife has been continually absent for 7 years, or where they have been continually absent from New South Wales and you reasonably believed that they were deceased.

If you wish to rely on this defence, you will have to prove these facts.

If you are alleged to have committed bigamy, you could also face charges under section 94 of the Marriage Act 1961 (Cth).

However, the maximum penalty for bigamy if charged under the Crimes Act is greater than that which applies under the Marriage Act.

If you are charged with bigamy under the Marriage Act, you could face a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment.

In contrast, the maximum penalty for bigamy under the Crimes Act is 7 years imprisonment.

Bigamy is a summary offence, which means that it will be dealt with by a magistrate in the Local Court.


It appears to me that RB has had possibly four wives which we know about even if a faked Marriage Certificate was used in the IK case so he could attain Australian citizenship.

Am I correct in thinking that he admitted at the inquest to his first two as being marriages? Can he produce evidence of his divorce from those first two women?

In order to gain Australian Citizenship he was either married to IK or faked a Marriage Certificate so legally we can assume we can ask him for his divorce papers from IK in Belgium. Do they exist?

I guess authorities would have to find the original marriage certificates to these first three women and then ask RB or do a search to find the divorce papers in each country and present the Marriage Certificate to DdH which is assumed to be genuine.

Although we would like RB to be charged for offences against MB if they have enough evidence, I am also wondering whether they have pursued this bigamy aspect as well?

As evidence of RB's marriages and divorces would be easier to find, and, like many of you, I would love to see him punished and in jail as soon as possible due to his age, this could be an easier way to do it.
 

MrsEmmaPeel

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TAINTED LOVE EPISODE 2 :

‎The Lady Vanishes: Tainted Love (part 2) on Apple Podcasts


The family of IK employed a PI to find out who WW was – did not trust him and IK didn't tell her family she was applying to emigrate to Australia.

He was still married to his 2nd wife at the time

IK had 1 daughter and her father was WW.

She put her daughter on a plane with another woman to return to her parents in Belgium and then left for Belgium after her.

She then reunited with WW in LILLE in France (ONCE HE HAD RETURNED FROM AUSTRALIA AFTER HIS CRUISE ON THE CHUSAN WITH DIANE) and lived with him and THE BABY UNTIL just before HE WAS ARRESTED 1971.



sometime between June 1971 and her arrival into Aust she marries MJR back in Budapest, she has another baby




He isnt concerned about divorcing anyone. He is a bigamist.
Whether he did marry IK or didnt, it doesn't matter. That was the least of his concern - he was a known crimnial even back then.

If they didnt marry it would have been easier for her to marry MJR
If they did marry she could have applied for divorce herself

AS far as what date she arrived back into Aust, I go by her death cert.

If you have some evidence of another year, be great for everyone to see it.
I haven’t heard the podcast yet, but when put like this — possible fake marriage certificate and emigration to Australia— it sounds exactly like the scenarios RB perpetrated on women 20 years later. Chilling.

question: if IK married MJR then she must have been divorced or never married, if MJR exists. In which case, RB wasn’t practicing bigamy with her but with another previous wife and IK threatened to tell DdH?
 
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