Australia - Siege/Ambush at Remote Property - 6 Dead Including 2 Police/Neighbor - Wieambilla (Queensland)

[drsleuth]

Not stupid at all. They’re bolt action rifles which means after each round is fired the bolt needs to be recycled and and a new round chambered.

Usually there’s a magazine type feed either through the bottom of the rifle or for older riles through the top. In Australia typically magazines are limited to 5 rounds.

Unless you have pre-prepared magazines or can load through the top of the rifle rapidly the rate of fire will drop. I’m completely speculating but it looked like from one of the photos the police were able to deploy two operators very close to NT. I’m assuming he couldn’t use the rifle most effectively given this and went for the glock.

Thanks, makes sense.

I listened to sooooo much testimony at the Lindt Siege inquest about ballistics, guns, bullets, projectory, 233 , MP4 , UMP , under penetration....over penetration...ballistic gel...retained weight...bullet expansion...velocity..ballistic gel...bonded rounds......

Eg Who knew that a 14.5 inch modified M4 carbine assault rifle - .223 calibre soft point rounds with 7:1 barrell twist fires @ a velocity of 2816 feet/sec????

I tried really hard to understand, but they may as well have been talking in another language!

 

[Rocket333]

Probably a really stupid question , but did they have to reload after every shot? Is that whey at the end Nathaniel grabbed the police glock as he didn't have time to reload as the police had already killed Gareth & Stacey

I read somewhere I can’t find that his rifle jammed or something and he grabbed the glock and stood up. Did he know the others were dead and he decided to end it by standing up and being shot? I didn’t realise Stacey fell down the steps after being shot. In many of the images of the front of the house afterwards, there’s a section at the bottom of the steps that’s blurred.

Did they decide to fight to the end rather than flee? Did they realise how close they were to smashing the Bearcat windscreen?

 

[SLouTh]

Did he know the others were dead and he decided to end it by standing up and being shot?

JMO …. But I think this option… he tried to go out in a “blaze of glory”

If he had surrendered at that stage, he would have gone down for everything on his own …. But JMO

Did they decide to fight to the end rather than flee? Did they realise how close they were to smashing the Bearcat windscreen?

By the number of shots grouped together in that drivers side front windscreen, I wonder if he knew it would be close to smashing??? With it being weakened by the number of shots in such a close proximity …???

Even SERT said that “he can shoot” … meaning he was shooting quite well … iMO …

All IMO

 

[Sir_Loin]

Thanks, makes sense.

I listened to sooooo much testimony at the Lindt Siege inquest about ballistics, guns, bullets, projectory, 233 , MP4 , UMP , under penetration....over penetration...ballistic gel...retained weight...bullet expansion...velocity..ballistic gel...bonded rounds......

Eg Who knew that a 14.5 inch modified M4 carbine assault rifle - .223 calibre soft point rounds with 7:1 barrell twist fires @ a velocity of 2816 feet/sec????

I tried really hard to understand, but they may as well have been talking in another language!

Sounds like you’ve got the hang of it!

 

[Sir_Loin]

JMO …. But I think this option… he tried to go out in a “blaze of glory”

If he had surrendered at that stage, he would have gone down for everything on his own …. But JMO

By the number of shots grouped together in that drivers side front windscreen, I wonder if he knew it would be close to smashing??? With it being weakened by the number of shots in such a close proximity …???

Even SERT said that “he can shoot” … meaning he was shooting quite well … iMO …

All IMO

That’s what I took from it also. Did either of them have any ADF training?

From the photos released they didn’t necessarily have top notch gear but had some pretty decent stuff. Saw a spotting scope in there.

IMHO given their religious beliefs they had no intention of giving up. They went out the way they wanted to. Which is a shame.

 

[SLouTh]

Did either of them have any ADF training?

Good question …

I don’t believe so … but I have read this week, that the SERT Commander (Superintendent Tim Partridge) contacted the Military on the way to Wieambilla, to check on that information specifically.

The article stated that he travelled with 2 intel officers, and were running history and intel checks like that along the way …

There was also evidence that the Train’s practiced “target practice” with makeshift cardboard cutouts …

 

[Rocket333]

There was also all the weapons Nathaniel dumped in the creek whilst crossing the Qld border. Thankfully he didn’t get them back.

“He said that among the items Train had ditched in the creek were at least three firearms – "short scrub sort of weapons" and ammunition. He said the firearms were retrieved from the water and found to be loaded. He said he contacted police about the weapons and they were eventually taken away. They were short-range weapons,'' he said. There was also a lot of hunting gear, camo gear and there was a bow and a target for shooting things.”

Nathaniel Train breached Queensland border carrying weapons months after school resignation

A Queensland farmer recalls a "sketchy" encounter with police shooter Nathaniel Train when he broke through the Queensland-NSW border gate and dumped weapons into a creek in December last year.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Ellery84]

Good question …

I don’t believe so … but I have read this week, that the SERT Commander (Superintendent Tim Partridge) contacted the Military on the way to Wieambilla, to check on that information specifically.

The article stated that he travelled with 2 intel officers, and were running history and intel checks like that along the way …

There was also evidence that the Train’s practiced “target practice” with makeshift cardboard cutouts …

They may have learnt what the felt they needed to learn online, or watched videos from their friend in the USA.

It seems like they were very much “self-taught”, but Gareth might have been practicing on wild pigs or other hunting animals for decades. He was up on weapons charges at the age of 19: That’s a long time to have been around guns.

His skills may have developed over time.

 

[Ellery84]

Good question …

I don’t believe so … but I have read this week, that the SERT Commander (Superintendent Tim Partridge) contacted the Military on the way to Wieambilla, to check on that information specifically.

The article stated that he travelled with 2 intel officers, and were running history and intel checks like that along the way …

There was also evidence that the Train’s practiced “target practice” with makeshift cardboard cutouts …

AS*O really messed up on this case. Isn’t it part of their objectives as an organisation to help prevent home-grown terrorist events?

IMO, they have more of a case to answer to than the QPS.

 

[SLouTh]

Nine’s Podcast “The Ultimate Sacrifice” has dropped a new episode:
The SERT Operatives …
(Where you normally listen to your podcasts)

Also from the podcast some info regarding what we will hear from the inquest next week..

“In the next part of the Coronial inquest, we'll learn more about the trains, their profiles and motivations. On the witness list, a forensic psychiatrist, an expert in warfare, and an associate professor specialising in religious radicalisation.

We'll hear expert opinions that the trains were experiencing symptoms of a shared psychotic disorder, and exactly why their actions that day were declared to be a terrorist act. That's in the next episode of The Ultimate Sacrifice.”

From The Ultimate Sacrifice: Episode 10: The SERT Operatives, 9 Aug 2024

Episode 10: The SERT Operatives

They’re some of the most highly trained police officers in Australia; and now, specialist operatives take us inside “the most dangerous operation” they’ve ever

podcasts.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[SLouTh]

AS*O really messed up on this case. Isn’t it part of their objectives as an organisation to help prevent home-grown terrorist events?

IMO, they have more of a case to answer to than the QPS.

In cases like this they are also reliant on the public reporting of suspicious behaviours … (And family members or those closest to the perpetrators are usually reluctant to do this)

There was a segment on the 7:30 Report last week … (ABC) that discussed this aspect of the case …

https://iview.abc.net.au/show/7-30/series/0/video/SEGS2024104192070

I suspect that after the Inquest has delivered its findings there will be another large advertising campaign to remind the public to use the National Security Hotline…..

https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-can-i-do/report-suspicious-behaviour

This campaign may occur sooner now that the terror threat has been raised to probable …

IMO

 

[SLouTh]

It seems like they were very much “self-taught”, but Gareth might have been practicing on wild pigs or other hunting animals for decades. He was up on weapons charges at the age of 19: That’s a long time to have been around guns.

His skills may have developed over time.

Highly likely …. Especially in Rural or Remote areas where hunting is a regular weekend activity …

From the inquest and transcribed in the podcast …

“a weapons expert was also called in, Detective Senior Sergeant Terrence Ferguson, with the QPS Firearms and Cannabis team. His evidence was interesting as he essentially told the coroner, none of the train's guns or knives, crossbows, even their camouflage gear, everything that had seemed quite extreme to many of us, none of it stood out to him as being unusual, unremarkable or even illegal to find on a rural property like this one, out where people do a lot of animal hunting. For those of us who don't live in the bush, who aren't familiar with hunting tools and weapons and how much people do actually stockpile, it wasn’t unusual to see.”

From The Ultimate Sacrifice: Episode 10: The SERT Operatives, 9 Aug 2024

Episode 10: The SERT Operatives

They’re some of the most highly trained police officers in Australia; and now, specialist operatives take us inside “the most dangerous operation” they’ve ever

podcasts.apple.com

IMO

 

[SLouTh]

IMO, they have more of a case to answer to than the QPS.

I think NSW Police have more to answer for …. Why wasn’t this information passed on???

A paranoid Gareth Train knew police were looking for his missing brother and warned he’d be waiting for them with “an eye open” in an email to Nathaniel’s son - the heated exchange continuing until the day before the Wieambilla massacre.

The inquest heard there was also information available that Gareth, who had a hatred for police, was known to have had a stash of illegal weapons hidden in a secret storage compartment on the bush block.

Much of this information was known to NSW Police, who did not pass it on when they requested police from Chinchilla check Gareth and Stacey’s property for Nathaniel.

“If all of that information was available to those police, I believe that they would have approached that job much differently,” one QPS officer said while being questioned.


New Article ..Paywalled for some

https://www.couriermail.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-qld/six-things-we-learned-wieambilla-inquests-most-shocking-moments/news-story/b3f42f69c49718571d5ba20bc233bce6

 

[Ellery84]

Highly likely …. Especially in Rural or Remote areas where hunting is a regular weekend activity …

From the inquest and transcribed in the podcast …

“a weapons expert was also called in, Detective Senior Sergeant Terrence Ferguson, with the QPS Firearms and Cannabis team. His evidence was interesting as he essentially told the coroner, none of the train's guns or knives, crossbows, even their camouflage gear, everything that had seemed quite extreme to many of us, none of it stood out to him as being unusual, unremarkable or even illegal to find on a rural property like this one, out where people do a lot of animal hunting. For those of us who don't live in the bush, who aren't familiar with hunting tools and weapons and how much people do actually stockpile, it wasn’t unusual to see.”

From The Ultimate Sacrifice: Episode 10: The SERT Operatives, 9 Aug 2024

Episode 10: The SERT Operatives

They’re some of the most highly trained police officers in Australia; and now, specialist operatives take us inside “the most dangerous operation” they’ve ever

podcasts.apple.com

IMO

Oh, that is quite interesting.

Maybe what he’s actually saying is, this type of stockpile is not unusual for a “blockie.”

I wish the police had more support going out to that area.

Should’ve, could’ve, would’ve….

 

[drsleuth]

I think NSW Police have more to answer for …. Why wasn’t this information passed on???

A paranoid Gareth Train knew police were looking for his missing brother and warned he’d be waiting for them with “an eye open” in an email to Nathaniel’s son - the heated exchange continuing until the day before the Wieambilla massacre.

The inquest heard there was also information available that Gareth, who had a hatred for police, was known to have had a stash of illegal weapons hidden in a secret storage compartment on the bush block.

Much of this information was known to NSW Police, who did not pass it on when they requested police from Chinchilla check Gareth and Stacey’s property for Nathaniel.

“If all of that information was available to those police, I believe that they would have approached that job much differently,” one QPS officer said while being questioned.


New Article ..Paywalled for some

https://www.couriermail.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-qld/six-things-we-learned-wieambilla-inquests-most-shocking-moments/news-story/b3f42f69c49718571d5ba20bc233bce6

I thought the new Fixated Perons unit set after the Linda Siege was supposed to catch these people!

 

[Ellery84]

I thought the new Fixated Perons unit set after the Linda Siege was supposed to catch these people!

Nathaniel Train’s many, many emails to the NSW Department of Education should have put him firmly on that list. IMO.

 

[SLouTh]

Maybe what he’s actually saying is, this type of stockpile is not unusual for a “blockie.”

No just Australian rural areas in general …. IMO

Remember the local Police (Weiambilla) also borrowed rifles from the local stations etc in the area that day, as they didn’t have enough …
We heard that in the inquest last week…

And one of the first constables to arrive on scene, was tasked with delivering the borrowed rifles to the guys on roadblocks etc as the rifles arrived at the local Command Center that was set up..



IMO

 

[Ellery84]

An anonymous former long-serving national security official told the publication that he was “utterly baffled” online activity by Gareth was not on the radar of police.

“I suspect they were not really looking at these sites – or if they were, they did not understand what they were seeing,” he said.

Other experts said the shooting would likely change the way authorities assess conspiracy theorists and the risk of violence.

Deakin University terrorism expert Greg Barton told news.com.au that the Covid pandemic had been an “accelerant” for a string of dangerous conspiracies that had already existed and that it had brought people with similar outlandish viewpoints together like never before.



https://www.news.com.au/national/qu...ws-story/7637eb95f74a6dc3bb5aa71b9e30afec?amp

 

[SouthAussie]

That’s what I took from it also. Did either of them have any ADF training?

No, they both applied to join the army when they were younger. Gareth failed the psych exam. Nathaniel was marked as officer material, but he opted out in solidarity and studied to become a PE teacher instead.

How my friend turned from tennis prodigy into an unhinged killer

The news headline told of cold-blooded murder, but the face staring back at me was that of my childhood friend, writes Josh Robertson.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sunnybree]

I’m curious to hear what the witnesses next week have to say about the relationship between Gareth and Nathaniel. Nathaniel excels at army training, but Gareth fails, so Nathaniel gives up this career opportunity. Because he loves Gareth or because Gareth couldn’t handle it? Nathaniel marries Stacey and they have kids, then Gareth moves in, takes over this relationship, and now becomes Stacey’s new husband and father role towards the children. Nathaniel stays for awhile, but eventually leaves. He apparently excels at his career as a teacher. He has a heart attack and deteriorates in all sorts of ways, including strong personal grievances against the Education Department. Then he abandons his career and goes back to his brother, the one who it seems forced him out of his own family? Lots of people love their siblings but this is really something else.