GUILTY Australia - Stephanie Scott, 26, Leeton, NSW, 5 April 2015 - #3

[Fuskier]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Vincent-Stanford-arrested.html#ixzz3sUvL40VG

Murder trial for teacher Stephanie Scott, 26, tragically killed a week before her wedding day is delayed until February
UPDATED: 06:17 EST, 26 November 2015.

"... The brothers chose not to appear via video link as the court heard psychiatric material is being summoned from Netherlands ... the material which is related to the case ... is not expected to arrive until the end of January and will require a further 10-15 days for translation..."

"Twin brothers have been charged in connection to Ms Scott's murder" ...

On April 8 2015, Vincent Stanford was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated sexual assault...

In June 2015, Marcus Stanford was extradited to NSW from SA and charged with accessory to murder... Marcus Stanford is accused of 'assisting' his brother between April 8 and April 31.

 

[Trooper]

Thanks Trooper. I did not refer to 'Immigration'. I referred to 'migration' meaning from one place to another:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Immigration_vs_Migration
"While immigration means for an individual or a family to move to a new country from their country of origin, the word migration denotes the act of moving from one place to another..."

Sure VS and MS may have Australian citizenship, but they emigrated to the Netherlands as children, were educated/socialised and lived there for many years, before they migrated back to Australia as adults.
The alleged accused was permitted to migrate back to Australia with an alleged substantial mental health disorder.

Were there no checks of mental health or criminal records simply because he was considered 'expat'?

It is not surprising that Australian employment checks did not bring up any areas of concern because there appear to be no records of mental health or criminal activity here in Australia.
Surely, this has implications for our 'migration' system?

When 'expats' who have lived overseas for many years seek to migrate back to Australia, their educational, employment, mental health and criminal records need to be checked IMO for their re-settlement impact upon local communities and our welfare/criminal systems etc. The country of emigration and the country of migration need to collaborate with regards to relevant records.
My opinion only.
:thinking:

Just for you Troop: http://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/emigrate-immigrate-migrate/
emigrate/immigrate/migrate
Emigrate means to leave one's country to live in another. Immigrate is to come into another country to live permanently. Migrate is to move, like bird in the winter.

No. .. there is no concept of returning Australian citizens being subject to a health check , ( apart from the normal ones, if entering Australia from a dodgy area , ebola, cholera etc, which any Australian is subject to) nor is there any obligation for a returning Australian citizen to supply any information in that regard. That includes anyone up to any age, of any gender, who has an Australian passport, no matter how long one has been away. Or where one has been residing.

It's a long bow , the migrate as opposed to immigrate.. more accurately, the three brothers were Returning citizens, returning to their country of birth, more than migrating birds in winter. They had a destination , and what a hell of a shock Leeton must have been after the European climate, housing, social practices, money, services ( including the internet which was so important to Vincent ) food, transport and so on.

I am not 100% sure if Annike had to go thru all the rigmarole of Immigration. I don't think she did, because the 'migration' was, according to neighbors in Holland, a thing of speed , haste and somewhat secretive.. Immigration to Australia these days, from anywhere on the planet is no longer a thing of speed and haste, its a long long process no matter where from. I think Annike was a returning citizen, and that perhaps she had AU citizenship done during her marriage., .. I cant think how she could have got thru that quickly without being so. . . not that it is important. It does not require one to repudiate AU citizenship to become a Dutch citizen, although , I don't know if the three brothers were such. No idea. They may have been dual citizens, or they may not have been.

I don't think leaving Holland had anything to do with any sort of callup in the military of Holland, their ages were a bit past that, and Holland doesn't have any thing like it, but there may have been factors which pushed them from Holland allied to factors which pushed them to Australia. I hope to know what those factors were in time. Because, I think it has bearing on the crime.

 

[Trooper]

I could be barking up the wrong tree and it wouldn't be the first time.. It could be the barrister for Markus who is awaiting information re 'mental health issues'.. Certainly, what Markus appears to have done is equally nuts.

Hiding the possessions of a murdered woman, and attempting to sell them has all the hallmarks of someone who is in the grip of a mighty delusion of grandeur.. added to this, the idea that he , Markus, says , he isn't allowed home.. why?. what did he do? what did he and Vincent do? . Something happened even before they got to Leeton, perhaps when they were briefly in Griffith.. ..

It may well be not only Vincent with a medical record of psychiatric disabilities.. Markus may be in the mix as well. .

 

[Fuskier]

Trooper, I did not suggest that there was 'a concept' or obligation currently in place. This is how an 'expat' with an alleged substantial mental health disorder migrated back into this country, went under the radar, only to allegedly commit a heinous rape and murder of a female victim. In my opinion above, I suggested that it is time our Australian 'migration' system gave consideration to a records check for 'expats' who have lived overseas for many years as part of their 'migration' back to Australia. My opinion only.

 

[Trooper]

Trooper, I did not suggest that there was 'a concept' or obligation currently in place. This is how an 'expat' with an alleged substantial mental health disorder migrated back into this country, went under the radar, only to allegedly commit a heinous rape and murder of a female victim. In my opinion above, I suggested that it is time our Australian 'migration' system gave consideration to a records check for 'expats' who have lived overseas for many years as part of their 'migration' back to Australia. My opinion only.

the thing is, does he have a substantial mental health disorder?... the source for this aspect is one article in the UK daily telegraph thingy, supposedly from a neighbour, who, having been told by Vincent's Mum that Vince is autistic , subsequently employed Vincent, and taught him everything he knows about hygiene and social behaviour,... is this a good enough source to base a whole lot of various concepts upon?


I am not surprised that someone's lawyer is awaiting 'reports' from Dutch psychiatrists, it is either to support this claim, or dispute it's origin, or dispute it's diagnosis. Or all three. Perhaps Vincent had a whole other degree of mental illness that was quietly kept hidden..

I don't think laws making it compulsory to reveal this upon returning to Australia would work.. . it would require the belief that the person was going to absolutely commit the kind of crime that would attract the attention of authority, in the near future. One just wouldn't tell if one thought one could fly under the radar. And it's not as if there is some sort of screening capability on the planet to adjudicate if one is ok headwise or off one's rocker, and thankgod, because you and I wouldn't be allowed in anywhere, Fuskier.

 

[Fuskier]

I guess it's got to do with how we deal with mental health, and how we balance privacy of information, personal rights etc when one is diagnosed with a major mental health disorder in my opinion. We are talking about an alleged 'substantial mental health disorder' which has gone under the radar, not idiosyncrasies of the common person.
I guess I'm wondering about the benefits of early identification and intervention for 'migrants' (expats) diagnosed with major mental health disorders, so they are offered services/supports in the area they re-settle i.e. case management if necessary. I see no reason why this could not be handled within our Mental Health Database and within our Privacy and Health Records Laws IMO. My opinion only.

 

[Estelle]

As the twins are identical, it is quite likely that if one is autistic, the other may also be or at least be on the autistic spectrum.

When one identical twin has autism, so does the other around 70 percent of the time.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/scienc...-genes-epigenetic-differences-identical-twins

MSM reported in the early days that Vincent had not been talking to police since he had been arrested. All he has been asked to do so far was to confirm his name (as far as we know) which he could do.

However, I have been wondering if a senior defence Legal Aid solicitor has now taken over and is now making a case that one or both of them are unfit to stand trial, give instructions or make a plea?

One aspect of fitness to stand trial is fitness to instruct. The question of whether a person is fit to instruct rationally may arise for the duty solicitor, particularly in relation to persons in custody. Defendants who have managed to attend the Court themselves at the appropriate time may be reasonably cognisant of their circumstances, but people arrested and brought to the Court from custody may be in a disturbed condition due to the stress of incarceration and may, at least temporarily, lack competence to instruct. For further information see Role of Duty Solicitor chapter.

DO NOT REPRESENT A DEFENDANT WHO IS UNABLE TO INSTRUCT

Where the duty solicitor is not satisfied as to a person’s fitness to instruct rationally, then no solicitor/client relationship exists. The duty solicitor should not act beyond indicating to the Court that they are unable to obtain instructions.

http://www.lsc.sa.gov.au/dsh/ch14s06.php#sthash.qMSXzlHe.dpuf

It is quite likely that they could end up in a psychiatric hospital in a prison IMO if it is found that one or both of them are mentally incompetent. Please read the full article for more information.

 

[Walk A Mile]

Trooper, I did not suggest that there was 'a concept' or obligation currently in place. This is how an 'expat' with an alleged substantial mental health disorder migrated back into this country, went under the radar, only to allegedly commit a heinous rape and murder of a female victim. In my opinion above, I suggested that it is time our Australian 'migration' system gave consideration to a records check for 'expats' who have lived overseas for many years as part of their 'migration' back to Australia. My opinion only.

Are you advocating that we revoke citizenship for anyone with a mental illness, or just citizens living abroad?

 

[Fuskier]

Are you advocating that we revoke citizenship for anyone with a mental illness, or just citizens living abroad?

I did not argue 'revoke' at all. This is your take on the above post. Please feel free to read my post above if you wish to understand what it was that I was wondering. Thank you.

 

[Fuskier]

As the twins are identical, it is quite likely that if one is autistic, the other may also be or at least be on the autistic spectrum.

When one identical twin has autism, so does the other around 70 percent of the time.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/scienc...-genes-epigenetic-differences-identical-twins

MSM reported in the early days that Vincent had not been talking to police since he had been arrested. All he has been asked to do so far was to confirm his name (as far as we know) which he could do.

However, I have been wondering if a senior defence Legal Aid solicitor has now taken over and is now making a case that one or both of them are unfit to stand trial, give instructions or make a plea?

One aspect of fitness to stand trial is fitness to instruct. The question of whether a person is fit to instruct rationally may arise for the duty solicitor, particularly in relation to persons in custody. Defendants who have managed to attend the Court themselves at the appropriate time may be reasonably cognisant of their circumstances, but people arrested and brought to the Court from custody may be in a disturbed condition due to the stress of incarceration and may, at least temporarily, lack competence to instruct. For further information see Role of Duty Solicitor chapter.

DO NOT REPRESENT A DEFENDANT WHO IS UNABLE TO INSTRUCT

Where the duty solicitor is not satisfied as to a person’s fitness to instruct rationally, then no solicitor/client relationship exists. The duty solicitor should not act beyond indicating to the Court that they are unable to obtain instructions.

http://www.lsc.sa.gov.au/dsh/ch14s06.php#sthash.qMSXzlHe.dpuf

It is quite likely that they could end up in a psychiatric hospital in a prison IMO if it is found that one or both of them are mentally incompetent. Please read the full article for more information.

Thanks Estelle.:goodpost:

 

[Walk A Mile]

I did not argue 'revoke' at all. This is your take on the above post. Please feel free to read my post above if you wish to understand what it was that I was wondering. Thank you.

I read your post. You seem to be implying that an Australian citizen should have been assessed before being allowed to return to their country of birth on the grounds of mental illness. If that's not what you meant, maybe you can elaborate.

 

[Fuskier]

No further elaboration needed. Please feel free to re-read the post again and you may get what is meant. Cheers

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If I'm knowing well, then Aspergers/Autism is IF, then innate to VS (maybe MS also); he is/they are born in Tasmania. The family had already emigrated (? :dunno to the Netherlands with a tragic desease of one or two children.

 

[Fuskier]

If I'm knowing well, then Aspergers/Autism is IF, then innate to VS (maybe MS also); he is/they are born in Tasmania. The family had already emigrated (? :dunno to the Netherlands with a tragic desease of one or two children.

We don't know if this alleged disorder was 'diagnosed' in childhood before they emigrated to the Netherlands? If diagnosed, the children with 'special needs" would have been under the care/protection of their parent. Did the children/family receive appropriate mental health supports in the Netherlands? Did the family slip under the radar? IMO the schools must have known if 'special needs' were present in childhood. How did they handle it?

The right to migrate is not in question. However, migrating as an 'adult' with significant 'special needs' is where more could have been done to link them to appropriate supports in the town of their resettlement IMO. The adult has certain freedoms and rights under our laws if they're mentally competent and law abiding. If the adult has significant 'special needs' which may influence mental competence, then they may benefit from being linked with appropriate supports in their new area.

Could an adult with significant 'special needs' benefit from MH follow-up to assist re-settlement in Australia? Could the family have benefited from MH support to link with appropriate supports as they 'managed' an adult member with 'special needs'?
My opinion only.

 

[Oz Jen]

Tips for disclosing a mental health condition

There is no obligation to tell your employer about a mental health condition if it does not affect how well you do your job.

Ozols says if you do decide to be open about your mental health in the workplace, there are a number of aspects to consider.

Does this person need to know?
Do you have a good rapport with them?
How comfortable are you sharing your personal information with them?
Do you feel confident they will maintain your privacy and confidentiality?
She also says timing is important. Try to make an appointment with enough time for a lengthy conversation. Also make sure it is a good time for the person you are meeting with and they aren't distracted by other concerns.

Barnes says, "Disclosing comes down to how comfortable you are and the skills you have to have those conversations". However once a mental health condition is disclosed people can involve their doctor as a team member in developing a graded return to work plan.

She also said it's important to remember that once you have disclosed a mental health condition you are protected by antidiscrimination law.



http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2014/08/11/4064793.htm

Hi they'll

While this may be correct in point of law, in practice it can be a bit different.

I was told that it is an obligation to inform an employer of a pre-existing or diagnosed chronic condition that may require time off for ongoing specialist visits or sick days due to that condition, not necessarily in relation to the ability to perform the work when fit to be on the job. Duty of disclosure comes down to employer expectations and Workcover issues.

 

[sleepinoz]

Hi they'll

While this may be correct in point of law, in practice it can be a bit different.

I was told that it is an obligation to inform an employer of a pre-existing or diagnosed chronic condition that may require time off for ongoing specialist visits or sick days due to that condition, not necessarily in relation to the ability to perform the work when fit to be on the job. Duty of disclosure comes down to employer expectations and Workcover issues.

Morally it is an obligation or it should be. IMO it would depend on the job, the illness and also the questions that are asked at interview or on application forms.

If someone with a mental health problem applied for a casual position, unless the employer asked if there were any medical reasons why they cannot perform the job, there would be no requirement to inform them. In a casual position (which many cleaners are) no sick pay so no worries about ongoing health appointments.

If the person interviewing had previous problems getting a job because they have disclosed their health problems, it would totally depend on the character of that person. There is no other way for an employer to know.

 

[Oz Jen]

Morally it is an obligation or it should be. IMO it would depend on the job, the illness and also the questions that are asked at interview or on application forms.

If someone with a mental health problem applied for a casual position, unless the employer asked if there were any medical reasons why they cannot perform the job, there would be no requirement to inform them. In a casual position (which many cleaners are) no sick pay so no worries about ongoing health appointments.

If the person interviewing had previous problems getting a job because they have disclosed their health problems, it would totally depend on the character of that person. There is no other way for an employer to know.

You're correct, sleep, in reference to casual positions, which differ in workplace agreements for permanent employees.

With regards to VS, I'm wondering whether he was assigned casual, as-required cleaning jobs, or was he contracted to the actual cleaning company to work set days at certain schools, which then makes him an employee of that company?
I'm not sure of this, though.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3sUvL40VG

"... the court heard psychiatric material is being summoned from Netherlands ... the material which is related to the case ... is not expected to arrive until the end of January"...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3sUvL40VG

"... the court heard psychiatric material is being summoned from Netherlands ... the material which is related to the case ... is not expected to arrive until the end of January"...

... and then has to be translated ...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

https://www.aane.org/asperger_resou...aneous/as_in_the_criminal_justice_system.html

Asperger Syndrome in the Criminal Justice System

Recent statistics suggest that as many as 1 in 99 people may have an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). The criminal justice system (CJS) may have contact with individuals with ASDs as victims, witnesses, and/or offenders. All criminal justice professionals who have contact with individuals with ASDs will need to establish clear and consistent communication methods, verify facts, make appropriate accommodations, and ensure fair justice and consequences for all concerned. Communications, behaviors, intent, and ability levels of people with ASDs vary greatly and present challenges for even the most experienced criminal justice professionals. Attorneys and judges must avoid misinterpretation of behaviors and characteristics typical of those with ASDs since these behaviors and characteristics could be misinterpreted as evidence of guilt, indifference, or lack of remorse. This article focuses on a specific subset of the ASD population: people with Asperger Syndrome

Asperger Syndrome Offenders

People with AS often get into trouble without even realizing they have committed an offense. Offenses such as making threatening statements; personal, telephone, or internet stalking; inappropriate sexual advances; downloading child *advertiser censored*; accomplice crime with false friends; and making physical outbursts at school or in the community would certainly strike most of society as offenses which demand some sort of punishment. This assumption, though valid at face value, may not take into account the particular issues that challenge the AS individual. Problems with sensory overload, poor social awareness, semantic misunderstandings, inability to deal with changes in routine or structure, and limited to absent understanding of non-verbal communications are the very kinds of things that make more appropriate responses to society very difficult for someone with AS.

For example, what appears as anti-social behavior ..............