Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

Charlot123

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We've discussed just how one proves such things as conversion to Christianity, or that one had become an atheist or that one is queer.
It is perhaps easier to prove conversion to Christianity (though some people are not overly demonstrative of their conversion). This case decided by the AAT, is NOT that of the Alsehli sisters, but it demonstrates what the Appeal Tribunal takes into account:
  1. The Tribunal is satisfied that the conversion was genuine and that the applicant and her family practise Christianity because of the following in combination:
    • The baptism certificates
    • That the pastor attended the hearing to give evidence, and the evidence she gave as to the genuineness of the conversion including the applicant’s regular attendance at church
    • The photos and text messages which were corroborating evidence
    • That the applicant and her husband swore on the Bible and not the Koran
    • The applicant has dispensed with the hijab
    • The Tribunal found the evidence given by the applicant and her husband to be credible and was satisfied they were truthful when giving their evidence
    • The applicant’s belief that there was a miracle
Here is the reference: 1604251 (Refugee) [2019] AATA 4675 (11 July 2019)
I skimmed the decision but could not see any reference to the applicants' having knowledge of Christian beliefs of tenets.
There seems to be an over reliance on demonstrative and preformative behaviours as necessary conditions (must have X for Y and without X you are not Y) rather than what they really are, as sufficient (if you have X then there are grounds to think you are Y).
I saw another case where the Tribunal did ask about Christian beliefs in order to determine the extent of the applicant's knowledge and, I suppose, infer from that the truthfulness of his claim to have converted: if he has converted, so the line of reasoning goes, he will have some knowledge of the tenets of Christianity.
It seems that if a person wants to claim they have converted then they need to do things that suggest they have, such as attending a Church, making contact with Christian people who can vouch for them, and text them; get a bible and ensure it is well-thumbed, familiarise themselves with the tenets of Christianity, and try to remember some particularly resonant passages from the NT, and also parables. And show signs of devotion.
Atheists have a much more difficult time of it, but i guess, you might familiarise your self with debates about the existence of God, such as the problem of evil; text messages, participation in atheist web fora, attending atheist events, if there are any. In both cases, signs of rejecting Islam, also count.
The applicant would also need to demonstrate knowledge of the fate that would befall them if they returned to Saudi Arabia.
A lawyer or advocate helping applicants would, I should think, be able to advice the applicants.
The issue I have not seen canvassed is the punishment and ill-treatment that awaits people, particularly women, who flee Saudi Arabia and other repressive totalitarian countries. The mere act of fleeing paints a target on you.

As I have said, it would be more difficult for me to discussed how people prove that they are gay; although per my personal opinion, realizing that a person is attracted to the same sex is not necessarily is followed by openly gay behavior. Let us talk about heterosexual people - most would realize they are attracted to the opposite sex around puberty for sure; but self-identifying as heterosexual does not mean that people immediately start sexual experimentations. Some start dating early, others start sexual life in college, or even later. Same with gay people, I assume. The problem with being gay in Saudi Arabia is different; not only are not people allowed to have gay life, but they are married off, via arranged marriages, and early. It is about unhappiness people have to endure because of societal expectations that go against their nature.

About atheists. It is also not black-and-white. The best study I read showed that among atheists and religious people alike, 3/4 have personally felt the presence of “God”, or “immanence”, or certain “transcendence”. Some will find and explore God, but even atheists belonging to these 3/4 might subscribe to some strong philosophy, akin to religion.

Now 1/4 of people who never personally had spiritual experience but consider themselves religious are very interesting. They are either potential deconversion material, and will leave the church, or they’d attend for community factor. In the atheist group, this 1/4 probably represents the staunchest, true, atheists, but often more accepting and less militant because they never needed to fight with themselves.

I was always thinking that ironically, this group might fail the atheist interview because they never need to join forums or Facebooks or explore the issue. They just never felt presence of God, but would the answer be enough for the interviewers?

To add to it, JMO, people coming from very religious countries, those who were indoctrinated in childhood (through fear), and then deconverted, might suffer from PTSD, as getting rid of religion means serious fight to overcome own fears. This PTSD might play against the person during the interview; some, I assume, might experience real flashbacks and not know what to say; the interviewer might interpret it as lying. JMO. This is why making one spit on any holy book or do, or say, something dramatic, might totally backfire.

So, for example, if Amaal felt gay but, at 23, decided to explore it slowly and not force events, is totally understandable. The fact that she was fleeing arranged marriage with a man, and the possibility of an arranged marriage, would have been a more important, traumatic thing in this context. As to Asra, merely listening to her story, when she first started doubting God, or what part of religion was the least palatable to her, could be enough.
 
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Via Marple

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Was at the site today.. The ground floor eateries were totally empty in the afternoon. A side window in that first floor apartment was left open - guess they still need to air it at all times.

Bought something at the BP station next door.. The cashier was really nice. She explained carefully to me how much each item cost before charging me. I don't get such attentive service at any other petrol station. Or maybe I looked out of place lol

Just to get a feel of the neighbourhood that's all. Lots of traffic of course.
 

websleuth1111

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Was at the site today.. The ground floor eateries were totally empty in the afternoon. A side window in that first floor apartment was left open - guess they still need to air it at all times.

Bought something at the BP station next door.. The cashier was really nice. She explained carefully to me how much each item cost before charging me. I don't get such attentive service at any other petrol station. Or maybe I looked out of place lol

Just to get a feel of the neighbourhood that's all. Lots of traffic of course.
Ooh I wouldn’t have been able to help myself. I would have asked the BP lady about them, did you?
I wonder if they were all interviewed? I wonder what’s happening with the autopsy/lab results and what the ETA is on that?
 

Dotta

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Ooh I wouldn’t have been able to help myself. I would have asked the BP lady about them, did you?
I wonder if they were all interviewed? I wonder what’s happening with the autopsy/lab results and what the ETA is on that?
Our friend @Via Marple could be WS correspondent from the site :cool:
I am certainly waiting for updates!
 

Dotta

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Some newspapers workers complain that no one wants to talk about the girls,
I'm not surprised.
Wasn't it reported that some journalists were being photographed by dodgy people in a car cruising nearby? o_O
(link below)

Even the SA community is frightened and tight lipped.

I think our WS correspondent @Via Marple must be extra cautious!!!!

 
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dotr

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Some newspapers workers complain that no one wants to talk about the girls,
Exactly the situation that had me looking for more information (which first brought me to and kept me at Ws) about a brand new Canadian teen girl, who disappeared mysteriously and ultimately found to have committed suicide.

Nobody seemed to want to talk about it (maybe afraid?) so here i am years later, looking up things that few wish to discuss, except all the good folk here!
 

NeverPersonal

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Exactly the situation that had me looking for more information (which first brought me to and kept me at Ws) about a brand new Canadian teen girl, who disappeared mysteriously and ultimately found to have committed suicide.

Nobody seemed to want to talk about it (maybe afraid?) so here i am years later, looking up things that few wish to discuss, except all the good folk here!
Which case is it?
 

dotr

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TootsieFootsie

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The bodies of two sisters from Saudi Arabia who were found dead in their apartment have been repatriated, as authorities continue to work to establish the cause of their deaths.

NSW Police have confirmed that the bodies of Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal, 23, have been returned to the Kingdom. They could not advise when exactly this occurred.

It comes as SBS News understands that a second toxicology report has been ordered as the investigation continues, and that the coronial report is not yet close to completion.
 

annpats

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''A plumber who visited the unit also raised concerns. “[He] said, ‘there’s something mysterious happening there’,” the worker said.

I would love to hear more details on why the plumber thought there was was 'something mysterious' happening there, and what led him to think that?
 

Dotta

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I would love to hear more details on why the plumber thought there was was 'something mysterious' happening there, and what led him to think that?
AFAI remember, he said they were huddling in the corner of the room and didn't utter a word.

Well, any person would feel uneasy in such a situation, no?
Imagine somebody is watching you cowering in terror.

MOO
 

annpats

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AFAI remember, he said they were huddling in the corner of the room and didn't utter a word.

Well, any person would feel uneasy in such a situation.
Imagine somebody is watching you cowering in terror.

MOO

Yes, that definitely would have come across as odd.

I wonder how much of it was paranoia in their own minds? They thought their food deliveries were being tampered with too, although CCTV at the building didn't show anything happening to it there.

MOO.
 

annpats

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Wasn't it reported that some journalists were being photographed by dodgy people in a car cruising nearby?
Even the SA community is frightened and tight lipped.


That's very worrying and quite chilling.

I wonder if the SA community there has it's own little microcosm of Saudi going on right in NSW, and some people are still watched, controlled, and co-erced?

Maybe in their new, free country they are not as free as they would've hoped?

MOO.
 

branmuffin

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The bodies of two sisters from Saudi Arabia who were found dead in their apartment have been repatriated, as authorities continue to work to establish the cause of their deaths.

NSW Police have confirmed that the bodies of Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal, 23, have been returned to the Kingdom. They could not advise when exactly this occurred.

It comes as SBS News understands that a second toxicology report has been ordered as the investigation continues, and that the coronial report is not yet close to completion.

It seems a final insult to return their remains to a country they escaped from.
 

Via Marple

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The Guardian seems to suggest that the sisters' family in the Kingdom took back their bodies for burial.
Bodies of Saudi asylum seeker sisters found dead in Sydney repatriated to country they fled

The Guardian understands their bodies were repatriated sometime last week, and they were buried according to Islamic traditions.

While the family has remained publicly silent, it is also understood the women’s parents have remained in contact with New South Wales police.

Makes me wonder.. If it was suicide, why didn't they leave a note? Could just be simply saying where they wanted to be buried. Or could have said more.
 

nimaathep

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The Guardian seems to suggest that the sisters' family in the Kingdom took back their bodies for burial.
Bodies of Saudi asylum seeker sisters found dead in Sydney repatriated to country they fled

The Guardian understands their bodies were repatriated sometime last week, and they were buried according to Islamic traditions.

While the family has remained publicly silent, it is also understood the women’s parents have remained in contact with New South Wales police.

Makes me wonder.. If it was suicide, why didn't they leave a note? Could just be simply saying where they wanted to be buried. Or could have said more.

One of my friends is a regional medical examiner in the US and while discussing suicides this past weekend she said that a majority of the suicides she has personally dealt with had no notes. I’m sure this varies across a number of factors like age, culture, etc. but I thought it was interesting.
 
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