Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

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Doesitmakesense

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I believe that using the Mental Health Act can also be a sign that a person is not fit to enter a plea.


"Application of the laws means that some persons charged with criminal offences are judged not fit to enter a plea ....."

"There are certain situations where a defendant in a criminal case case cannot be made to go to trial.
This includes where the person does not understand the charges they are faced with, or how to plead (guilty or not guilty) to the charges, or the nature of the proceedings, or the effect of evidence given against them, or is not able to defend themselves or properly instruct their lawyers."

But if you go with that reasoning, then a child should not have been in their care in the first place. If you are not fit to be responsible for your own actions, then you are not fit to be caring for another IMO
 

SouthAussie

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But if you go with that reasoning, then a child should not have been in their care in the first place. If you are not fit to be responsible for your own actions, then you are not fit to be caring for another IMO

Yes, and FM has lost her status as the child's foster mother, accordingly.

I don't know if FACS 'should have known' before the alleged assault happened that FM has mental health issues, and removed the child if it was deemed that the child was not safe in her care.

Or if these mental health issues have come on since then, and FM may now be deemed not fit to stand trial.

Maybe it will become clear once her application is heard.
 
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SleepyJoe

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I don't know if FACS 'should have known' before the alleged assault happened that FM has mental health issues, and removed the child if it was deemed that the child was not safe in her care.
I disagree. FACS should have known if she was not mentally fit to be a foster carer. These families should be monitored closely enough to ensure that any foster carer showing signs of distress/ mental illness get appropriate treatment and support or the child placed in another home. FACS have a duty of care to protect these children. To suggest that she is not fit to enter a plea (because of her mental state at the time of the assault) 100% means she was not fit to care for the child. FACS and both foster carers failed in their responsibilities to keep the child safe (BTW where was the MFC? Shouldn't he have reported that his wife was not mentally well enough to care for the child if she was too unwell to have insight and self-control?). I know we don’t live in a perfect world and these services are under pressure, but really there are no excuses. These departments use our taxpayer dollars to care for vulnerable children. There is nothing wrong with criticising them and saying they failed and holding them to a higher standard. That's the whole purpose of a democratic society and our Westminster system of government - to hold these elected representatives and public servants to account for their mistakes.
 

SleepyJoe

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From what I understood, she called them mum and dad. They were the only 2 people who ever took care of her on a daily and nightly basis. All of her school mates thought they were her parents and she treated them as if they were her parents.

As far as I understood, she was going to stay with them long term, in fact, for her entire childhood. Given this context, I think 'parents' is the accurate term. There are various types of parents; bio parents, foster parents, God parents.

You may prefer to call them 'foster carers' but the term foster parents is also correct and objective. Many people refer to fosterers as foster parents. Children need parents, not just carers, if they are to be in long term care. JMO IMO MOO



PARENTS-definition of:
1a: one that begets or brings forth offspringjust became parents of twins
b: a person who brings up and cares for another/foster parents
2a: an animal or plant that is regarded in relation to its offspringThe parent brings food to the chicks.
b: the material or source from which something is derivedLatin is the parent of several languages.
Ok, but they are not her "parents" any more. They are her former foster "parents".
 

T-dawg420

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While charges do not equate to guilt, what are we to make of the FFC wanting those charges dismissed on mental health grounds? Surely if there is no basis for them, such an application would not be necessary.
I thinks it’s really hard to ascertain the reasons behind somebody wanting charges dismissed under section 14 of the Mental Health and Cognitive Impairment Forensic Provisions Act 2020. From my understanding if a section 14 order is granted then that allows a person who is charged with a criminal or traffic offence and suffers from a mental health impairment or cognitive impairment to avoid a criminal record.

I guess that’s why there is a hearing for it, to determine the validity of the application? Again without intimate knowledge of the application, as well as the general mental health and well being of the FFC, its hard to comment,

I imagine this application process is quite rigorous and would assume any kind of frivolous application would be met with the appropriate punishment?

“A section 14 order may be unconditional, but more commonly comes with conditions such as as undertaking a mental health treatment or support plan.”

great website site post btw. Thanks SouthAussie

 

SouthAussie

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I disagree. FACS should have known if she was not mentally fit to be a foster carer. These families should be monitored closely enough to ensure that any foster carer showing signs of distress/ mental illness get appropriate treatment and support or the child placed in another home. FACS have a duty of care to protect these children. To suggest that she is not fit to enter a plea (because of her mental state at the time of the assault) 100% means she was not fit to care for the child. FACS and both foster carers failed in their responsibilities to keep the child safe (BTW where was the MFC? Shouldn't he have reported that his wife was not mentally well enough to care for the child if she was too unwell to have insight and self-control?). I know we don’t live in a perfect world and these services are under pressure, but really there are no excuses. These departments use our taxpayer dollars to care for vulnerable children. There is nothing wrong with criticising them and saying they failed and holding them to a higher standard. That's the whole purpose of a democratic society and our Westminster system of government - to hold these elected representatives and public servants to account for their mistakes.

My next sentence said .... "Or if these mental health issues have come on since then, and FM may now be deemed not fit to stand trial."

Maybe that was missed.
 

Chrissy74

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I think the reports say that William was wearing Pull Ups, not that he wet the bed.

So there was only a nighttime Pull Up to take off.

imo
Thanks SthAussie. What about the washing machine? Do we know or has it ever been reported whether or not the washing machine was empty? With so much talk about it could it have sparked curiosity in little W?
 
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SouthAussie

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Thanks SthAussie. What about the washing machine? Do we know or has it ever been reported whether or not the washing machine was empty?

No, I don't think it was ever said if it was empty or not.

BS came by a week or so later and repaired it.

But he had been at the house a few days before William disappeared, so if it had water in it, he may have drained it at that time. Then ordered the parts for a fix.
 

Curiouskatz11

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The FMC will stand trial on the common assault and stalking charges. This is an interesting dynamic if FFC is successful with her application to have her’s dismissed. It astounds me that both were allegedly involved in this behaviour. Very disturbing.
 

T-dawg420

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I don't recall that CS' parents were ever charged with any criminal acts.
No they weren’t, my wording was totally incorrect. I should have made reference to CS’s parents being believed by many at various points, esp early on to have had something to do with her disappearance, much like the FC’s in this case. i apologise for the misunderstandin.
 

SleepyJoe

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The FMC will stand trial on the common assault and stalking charges. This is an interesting dynamic if FFC is successful with her application to have her’s dismissed. It astounds me that both were allegedly involved in this behaviour. Very disturbing.
Agree - it's very disturbing that the two adult carers of a small child have allegedly physically assaulted her.
 

SleepyJoe

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No they weren’t, my wording was totally incorrect. I should have made reference to CS’s parents being believed by many at various points, esp early on to have had something to do with her disappearance, much like the FC’s in this case. i apologise for the misunderstandin.
Sorry I misunderstood and thanks for explaining :) .
 

Chrissy74

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No, I don't think it was ever said if it was empty or not.

BS came by a week or so later and repaired it.

But he had been at the house a few days before William disappeared, so if it had water in it, he may have drained it at that time. Then ordered the parts for a fix.
Interesting. Maybe the machine couldn’t be drained until the necessary part was repaired/replaced. So we don’t really know for sure if the washing machine was full of water or not. But it makes sense that if WT fell inside the washer head first for example why the FF heard him playing then heard nothing. Silence. An accident like that would happen in a split second and there would be no way for a child to scream or be heard if there head is under water
 

SleepyJoe

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I haven't read that the alleged assault was physical?
You're right, thanks for drawing that to my attention, it could have been the threat of immediate violence. Either way though, quite scary for a little girl.

"Common assault is a crime under section 61 of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW), however it is defined under the common law. It includes both:

  • Any act which causes another person to fear immediate personal violence (threat of force), and
  • A striking, touching or application of force against another person (use of force).
In both cases the prosecution must also show that:

  • The accused acted intentionally or recklessly,
  • The victim did not consent to the conduct, and
  • The conduct was without lawful excuse."
 

Tessi V

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Should the children of a biological family who have had a child go missing be removed from their biological family, or should this only happen to foster families?

Missing children cases involving biological families invoke strong media attention and public reaction also.


Eg: CS in Western Australia. Should CS's little sister have been removed until the police worked out who took CS?
And, if so, when should CS's little sister have been given back to her parents? When TK was arrested and charged, or after he has been found guilty (presumably he will be found guilty)?
I believe there’s been some misunderstanding as there have been recent discussions re: mental health, so my responses were only ever in relation to them and included my personal take on certain investigation methods plus an attempt to open conversations addressing the reviewal process with case management – for Australian foster care systems – in unique conditions, such as these.
Thought my comments suggested this clearly, therefore apologies SA for causing any confusion as the intent was to highlight (my personal viewpoint) that FACS did a poor job monitoring the situation, given the high media coverage the FP received and the magnitude of the circumstances. I don’t feel it was appropriately handled on a case by case basis. JMO.

Also, thanks to the mods for the clarifying the issue with an earlier post.
 

Curiouskatz11

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You're right, thanks for drawing that to my attention, it could have been the threat of immediate violence. Either way though, quite scary for a little girl.

"Common assault is a crime under section 61 of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW), however it is defined under the common law. It includes both:

  • Any act which causes another person to fear immediate personal violence (threat of force), and
  • A striking, touching or application of force against another person (use of force).
In both cases the prosecution must also show that:

  • The accused acted intentionally or recklessly,
  • The victim did not consent to the conduct, and
  • The conduct was without lawful excuse."
But in any case, did the FFC not try to explain the injury as a fall from a horse? Implies physical, if so.
 
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