Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

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Doesitmakesense

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After nearly 8 years there doesn't appear to be much hard evidence of anything ....that we have been told about anyway .... Admittedly. there are a few circumstantial snippets about some persons mentioned over the years....

And there is still no actual crime scene, that we know of, for physical evidence either.....

Of course the NSW Police would know far more than we are privy to.....and hopefully they have something in that brief...

I really do believe LE have a lot more then we the general public will ever know until this case is closed
 

SouthAussie

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He never publicly discussed BS so we actually don’t know he thought he was guilty. All we do know is he felt he needed to be investigated. Jubelins methods have been questioned extensively when he went to court. I’m sure if there was more than that recording done incorrectly he would have been charged. No-one has been convicted in Williams case so we can’t say he made an error in judgement at all.

I think it was in his book (but it might have been an interview), Jubes said that he needed to carry on Hans Rupp's investigation into BS until he was ruled in or ruled out. Due to BS' primary POI status when Jubes took over the case.

Jubes was in Perth when he got the call to take over the case. He flew back and the search of BS' properties was already happening. (That is definitely in his book.)

Still haven't heard any result in BS' most recent lawsuit. I wonder how long it takes to make a decision, and if that decision will be publicly published.

imo
 
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Warshawski

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Tainted Evidence works with The Fruit of a Poisonous Tree
There in lies the problem for the DPP

Very basic definitions below :

tainted evidence
n. in a criminal trial, information which has been obtained by illegal means or has been traced through evidence acquired by illegal search and/or seizure. This evidence is called "fruit of the poisonous tree" and is not admissible in court.
See also: fruit of the poisonous tree probable cause search and seizure search warrant


fruit of the poisonous tree
n. in criminal law, the doctrine that evidence discovered due to information found through illegal search or other unconstitutional means (such as a forced confession) may not be introduced by a prosecutor. The theory is that the tree (original illegal evidence) is poisoned and thus taints what grows from it. For example, as part of a coerced admission made without giving a prime suspect the so-called "Miranda warnings" (statement of rights, including the right to remain silent and what he/she says will be used against them), the suspect tells the police the location of stolen property. Since the admission cannot be introduced as evidence in trial, neither can the stolen property.

It may come as a surprise, but the court can admit evidence that has been illegally obtained if the court feels that it is more desirable to the public interest to admit the evidence than to exclude it

 

SouthAussie

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It may come as a surprise, but the court can admit evidence that has been illegally obtained if the court feels that it is more desirable to the public interest to admit the evidence than to exclude it


Yes, when we discussed this back in 2019 a link was posted that says ....


Courts in NSW must exclude improperly or illegally obtained evidence in criminal cases under Section 138 of the Evidence Act 1995 if the undesirability of admitting evidence obtained in that way outweighs the desirability of admitting it.

This means that even though the recording was obtained illegally, it may still be used in court if the desirability of admitting the recording outweighs the undesirability of admitting material obtained in that particular way.

 

JBowie

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I think it was in his book (but it might have been an interview), Jubes said that he needed to carry on Hans Rupp's investigation into BS until he was ruled in or ruled out. Due to BS' primary POI status when Jubes took over the case.

Jubes was in Perth when he got the call to take over the case. He flew back and the search of BS' properties was already happening. (That is definitely in his book.)

Selected paragraphs from I Catch Killers (pages 248 and 249)

“The raids on Bill’s home and business go ahead on 20 January 2015. At the time, I’m in Perth with Tracy, trying to keep our marriage going …”

“Given Hans [Rupp] has started working on Bill, I need to see it is done properly rather than drop it. For one thing, Bill’s alibi hasn’t been checked and we need to do that. For another, we should search the storage shed he owns in Wellington, a bush town six hours’ drive inland where Bill used to run a business. We’ve received a report that his car was seen there the day after William disappeared.”

“At the same time, we need to widen the investigation. We can’t just follow Bill and see where he leads us, we need to also identify and pursue other persons of interest, meaning people who are not suspects but who police want to talk to, including the large number of sex offenders living in the area.”

“How has it come to this? I think, looking at the work in front of me. Why has half of this work, at least, not already been done? A three-year-old has gone missing and we can’t bring our A game?”

“I fly back to Sydney determined to correct that.”
 

Serenanicole

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Selected paragraphs from I Catch Killers (pages 248 and 249)

“The raids on Bill’s home and business go ahead on 20 January 2015. At the time, I’m in Perth with Tracy, trying to keep our marriage going …”

“Given Hans [Rupp] has started working on Bill, I need to see it is done properly rather than drop it. For one thing, Bill’s alibi hasn’t been checked and we need to do that. For another, we should search the storage shed he owns in Wellington, a bush town six hours’ drive inland where Bill used to run a business. We’ve received a report that his car was seen there the day after William disappeared.”

“At the same time, we need to widen the investigation. We can’t just follow Bill and see where he leads us, we need to also identify and pursue other persons of interest, meaning people who are not suspects but who police want to talk to, including the large number of sex offenders living in the area.”

“How has it come to this? I think, looking at the work in front of me. Why has half of this work, at least, not already been done? A three-year-old has gone missing and we can’t bring our A game?”

“I fly back to Sydney determined to correct that.”
One thing I don’t think anyone could doubt is the sheer dedication and determination that Jubelin brought to trying to solve this case. IMO.
 

JBowie

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One thing I don’t think anyone could doubt is the sheer dedication and determination that Jubelin brought to trying to solve this case. IMO.

There's a point where dedication crosses over to a sort of mania, and IMO (and those of some police he worked with) he went over that boundary more than once.

When that occurs the positive becomes a negative.
 

SouthAussie

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There's a point where dedication crosses over to a sort of mania, and IMO (and those of some police he worked with) he went over that boundary more than once.

When that occurs the positive becomes a negative.

If my child went missing, I would like a dedicated cop like Jubes on the case - right from the get-go.
A cop who would have done all of those things that should have been done by the time he took over the case, 5 months after William disappeared.
A cop who is praised by the parents of missing children because of his dedication to their child's case.

He is a family man, has two children and at least one grandchild.
His dedication cracked his marriages apart. But (from all appearances) he still has a good relationship with his grown children, who stand beside him.

I think he was chosen for this case for good reason. And then the political winds of change happened in the police leadership team.


(Paraphrased) Jubes says ....
These are arduous investigations, they are not for everyone. Many detectives have been broken by long, arduous investigations.
If there was evidence (fingerprints, DNA, eye witness) Australia would not still be asking "Where is William?"
POIs are identified and classified - so they can be targeted - to look for exculpatory or inculpatory evidence. Slowly the POIs are eliminated.
That is part of the process, it is not wasting time. The police role is to search for truth ..."wherever that may take us".
They need detectives who are prepared to go hard.
 

SouthAussie

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I think he was chosen for this case for good reason. And then the political winds of change happened in the police leadership team.


Mr Jubelin's barrister, Margaret Cunneen SC, put it to Detective Beacroft that a commander of the homicide squad, Scott Cook, said to her the investigation was "a waste of time" and police would "never get anyone for this".

"That's possibly something that was said," the witness replied.

 

KateM

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So, a premature witch hunt, essentially. If that's what has happened with the Crime Commission.

If others have read Bowraville, and/or followed the Matthew Leveson case, and/or read Jubes book, they will know that Jubes forms an empathetic relationship with the victims families. He learns a lot about the victims in doing that, and I don't think that means he is blind to any possible culpability of a family member.

Could Jubes have involved the FP in a police strategy of some kind? Perhaps. imo
Remember when we wondered if those two cars were actually there, or if it was a fabricated idea used as police strategy?
.
What would the police strategy be, to fabricate the 2 cars?
 

KateM

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Well, they (Jubes and Hans Rupp) thought they did know if the FP were involved. They both ruled them out, in separate investigations.

It is not as if the FP have never been investigated before.

And it is not as if any evidence against them has yet been produced.
It is doubtful that the FP's were ever investigated thoroughly. How long was it before the MFC gave an official police statement? William's disappearance was put down to an abduction very early on. Much later in the investigation there was contention with some of the police that were working on the case and GJ. They suspected the FP's may be involved and didn't feel that they had been looked at closely. It was then that GJ took them in for an interview and apparently bugged their car... :rolleyes:
 

bearbear

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i had always wondered if maybe jubelin had a strategy with keeping the fcs close because he suspected there was a cover up but in the end it really did seem like he had a closeness and friendship with them, especially with ffc
 

bearbear

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it seems very unfair to the child who was allegedly assaulted if ffc gets her section 14 mental health exclusion granted, its obviously a strategy advised by her expensive lawyers, where shes basically admitting the assault, even mfc had considered applying but decided not to, if she was so deranged at the time why didnt mfc step in and protect the child instead of joining in?
 

JLZ

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i had always wondered if maybe jubelin had a strategy with keeping the fcs close because he suspected there was a cover up but in the end it really did seem like he had a closeness and friendship with them, especially with ffc
It must be a challenge for detectives sometimes, getting emotionally involved with the people they're spying on and seeking to entrap. But Jubelin's story is that he checked the foster parents out, decided they were innocent victims and then began his program of emotional support.
 

LolaAngelina

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I think it was in his book (but it might have been an interview), Jubes said that he needed to carry on Hans Rupp's investigation into BS until he was ruled in or ruled out. Due to BS' primary POI status when Jubes took over the case.

Jubes was in Perth when he got the call to take over the case. He flew back and the search of BS' properties was already happening. (That is definitely in his book.)

Still haven't heard any result in BS' most recent lawsuit. I wonder how long it takes to make a decision, and if that decision will be publicly published.

imo

It is doubtful that the FP's were ever investigated thoroughly. How long was it before the MFC gave an official police statement? William's disappearance was put down to an abduction very early on. Much later in the investigation there was contention with some of the police that were working on the case and GJ. They suspected the FP's may be involved and didn't feel that they had been looked at closely. It was then that GJ took them in for an interview and apparently bugged their car... :rolleyes:
BBM We know that’s simply not true now. This all came out in the inquest. They were thoroughly investigated. <modsnip>
 
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JBowie

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I think he was chosen for this case for good reason. And then the political winds of change happened in the police leadership team.

I don't doubt his motives, nor his dedication, however there is a point where cooler heads are needed. Police all over the world solve tough cases, but they don't all blow themselves up in the process.

Being in a senior position in any organization requires the ability to get the best out of team members without turning them against you by your behavior towards them. There's politics in every important job. Successful people learn how to deal effectively with that, too.

IMO GJ is the sort of personality that needs a strong and wise mentor at call (and of course to follow their advice).

All that said, I believe that he should have been rotated off the Strike Force by police management earlier to get fresh eyes onto the case. I believe that would have been better for him and for the case.
 
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bearbear

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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>they were both charged over the same period at the same residence, so if it didnt happen at the same time then it must have been two separate incidences, how terrifying for the child to have the people you think of as family assault you, and we dont know if this was ongoing abuse <modsnip>, there is never any excuse to assault a child
 
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KateM

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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

It's so sad that William's sister was left in their care for all of those years. After William 'disappeared', she should have been removed from their custody, because if nothing else, the FFC was guilty of neglect. William's sister will no doubt have ongoing issues as a result of everything, including having to keep the fact that William was her brother, a secret. :confused:
 
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JLZ

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It's so sad that William's sister was left in their care for all of those years. After William 'disappeared', she should have been removed from their custody, because if nothing else, the FFC was guilty of neglect. William's sister will no doubt have ongoing issues as a result of everything, including having to keep the fact that William was her brother, a secret. :confused:
No. A bad outcome doesn't prove neglect. A duty of care is a duty to behave in a certain way, not to guarantee a certain result.
 
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