Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[LolaAngelina]

Using this reasoning, perhaps the allegations FACS made against the bio parents were also not true and William and his sister should never have been taken from them?

Which allegations would that be?

 

[SleepyJoe]

I'm sure William's bio parents have PTSD.

Absolutely, their children were taken from them by the state and foster carers "lost" one of them. I'd have PTSD too if I was in their position .

 

[SleepyJoe]

Thanks, yes I completely understand that. I work in mental health and all my client's have PTSD for various reasons, the majority from childhood trauma. I also was was diagnosed many years ago myself from the loss of a child.

I'm so sorry to hear that *hugs* <3 That's terrible. I too have suffered, from a different reason. And you're absolutely right, PTSD is no excuse for hurting a child.

 

[Chrissy74]

I'm sure William's bio parents have PTSD.

I think just about every human being can relate in some way to PTSD

 

[SleepyJoe]

I think just about every human being can relate in some way to PTSD

Fortunately, not many people will ever be diagnosed as having suffered with PTSD. PTSD is a very specific and severe diagnosis:

"Following a traumatic event, many people develop post-traumatic symptoms, and a minority develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which is a severe reaction to an extreme and frightening traumatic event (Phoenix Australia 2019).....

According to the 2017–18 National Health Survey, 1.7% of women and 1.3% of men reported that they had been told by a doctor, nurse, or health professional that they have PTSD (point prevalence) (ABS 2019)."*

You're right, lots of people experience trauma and trauma-related symptoms, but only a very small percentage of people are ever diagnosed with PTSD, which is particularly severe and disabling.

*Stress and trauma - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare

 

[Chrissy74]

I

Fortunately, not many people will ever be diagnosed as having suffered with PTSD. PTSD is a very specific and severe diagnosis:

"Following a traumatic event, many people develop post-traumatic symptoms, and a minority develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which is a severe reaction to an extreme and frightening traumatic event (Phoenix Australia 2019).....

According to the 2017–18 National Health Survey, 1.7% of women and 1.3% of men reported that they had been told by a doctor, nurse, or health professional that they have PTSD (point prevalence) (ABS 2019)."*

You're right, lots of people experience trauma and trauma-related symptoms, but only a very small percentage of people are ever diagnosed with PTSD, which is particularly severe and disabling.

*Stress and trauma - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare

And you’re right SleepyJoe.
Would be nice though if all people had access to mental health resources . EQUALY .

 

[T-dawg420]

This might be a long post cos I am going to put a few quotes from a website southAussie posted about section 14 and the process etc. Its quite informative and gives a good understanding about it. It’s NSW law, which I believe differs from state to state?

“section 14 of the Mental Health and Cognitive Impairment Forensic Provisions Act 2020”

“You have a ‘mental health impairment’ if:

1. You have a temporary or ongoing disturbance of thought, mood, volition, perception or memory,
2. Your disturbance is significant for clinical diagnostic purposes, and
3. Your disturbance impairs your emotional wellbeing, judgment or behaviour.

Mental health impairment includes, but is not limited to:

• Anxiety disorder,
• Affective disorder, including clinical depression and bipolar disorder,
• Psychotic disorder, and
• Substance induced mental disorder that is not temporary.

Mental health impairment does not include:

• The temporary effect of ingesting a substance, or
• A substance use disorder.”

You have a ‘cognitive impairment’ if:

1. You have an ongoing impairment in adaptive functioning
2. Your impairment relates to comprehension, reason, judgment, learning or memory, and
3. Your impairment results from damage to, or dysfunction, developmental delay or deterioration of your brain or mind.

“Cognitive impairment may arise from:

• Intellectual disability,
• Borderline intellectual functioning,
• Dementia,
• Acquired brain injury,
• Drug or alcohol related brain damage, including foetal alcohol spectrum disorder, or
• Autism spectrum disorder.”

Section 14: Mental Health Applications in the Local Court | Sydney Criminal Lawyers

Going to court while battling a mental health issue? Our lawyers have a proven track record of having cases dismissed due to mental health.

www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au

 

[SleepyJoe]

I

And you’re right SleepyJoe.
Would be nice though if all people had access to mental health resources . EQUALY .

100% agree Christy. I also think that we would have far less mental health problems in our society if all children were treated with love and respect, and had safe, secure, stable homes. Cases of children being hurt, abused, assaulted and killed by their carers are heartbreaking; the cycle of intergenerational trauma just gets worse and worse.

 

[SleepyJoe]

There are a few quite worrying aspects of this case that we have discussed before in this forum that have got me thinking:
- the reports of William’s bruising
- FFC describing her difficulties bonding with William and his hitting and biting
- the reports of the other child in the FCs care (we assume is his sister) being bruised
- the alleged assault and stalking/intimidation of the other child
- the many inconsistencies in the FCs reports of what happened that morning
- FFCs controlling tone in her police statements and in the Where's William podcast
- no public expression of remorse or regret for "losing" William expressed in the 60 minutes interview nor in the WW podcast by either of the FCs (nor in any of the police statements publicly available that I have been able to read)
- the fact that she is now claiming she has a mental impairment

This all leads me to the distressing thought that it is possible that the FFC flew into a rage and in the heat of the moment killed William. Sadly, I think that there are signs (some of which are mentioned above) that she may have been capable of this. All speculation and JMO.

 

[T-dawg420]

There are a few quite worrying aspects of this case that we have discussed before in this forum that have got me thinking:
- the reports of William’s bruising
- FFC describing her difficulties bonding with William and his hitting and biting
- the reports of the other child in the FCs care (we assume is his sister) being bruised
- the alleged assault and stalking/intimidation of the other child
- the many inconsistencies in the FCs reports of what happened that morning
- FFCs controlling tone in her police statements and in the Where's William podcast
- no public expression of remorse or regret for "losing" William expressed in the 60 minutes interview nor in the WW podcast by either of the FCs (nor in any of the police statements publicly available that I have been able to read)
- the fact that she is now claiming she has a mental impairment

This all leads me to the distressing thought that it is possible that the FFC flew into a rage and in the heat of the moment killed William. Sadly, I think that there are signs (some of which are mentioned above) that she may have been capable of this. All speculation and JMO.

Surely this scenario is as much a possibility as William having an accident, as well as being abducted either from 48 Benaroon Drive or even possibly William wandering into the bush and being taken from in there. (Even though MFC was emphatic William wasn’t a wanderer, but there is a first time for everything As they say)

What is the evidence that William was abducted? Did anyone else see the mystery cars the FFC did? Did anyone else notice anyone or anything strange in the location? Cos we have heard reports of witness’s close by hearing children playing at certain times. Well, what about eye witness accounts of suspicious activity? Cos surely on a dead end street (not discounting the drive through into the bush off road), locals Would be very aware of anything out of place?

Occams Razor, while not a science by any stretch, might lead one to formulate a speculative theory quite easily imo. While it’s important to remain open minded, it’s also important to use sense and logic, jmo.

 

[Curiouskatz11]

There are a few quite worrying aspects of this case that we have discussed before in this forum that have got me thinking:
- the reports of William’s bruising
- FFC describing her difficulties bonding with William and his hitting and biting
- the reports of the other child in the FCs care (we assume is his sister) being bruised
- the alleged assault and stalking/intimidation of the other child
- the many inconsistencies in the FCs reports of what happened that morning
- FFCs controlling tone in her police statements and in the Where's William podcast
- no public expression of remorse or regret for "losing" William expressed in the 60 minutes interview nor in the WW podcast by either of the FCs (nor in any of the police statements publicly available that I have been able to read)
- the fact that she is now claiming she has a mental impairment

This all leads me to the distressing thought that it is possible that the FFC flew into a rage and in the heat of the moment killed William. Sadly, I think that there are signs (some of which are mentioned above) that she may have been capable of this. All speculation and JMO.

The totality of all these things suggests the possibility to me too, Sleepy. I wonder about the role of MFC in this given he is facing similar charges (one count less from memory). The thought of two adult carers allegedly behaving in this way together towards a child disturbs me much more than if it was just one of them.

Surely the bar for the mental health defence would need to be very high indeed. I imagine that mental health must be a factor for the accused in many criminal cases. If FFC is successful, it would IMO set a very public precedent.

 

[JLZ]

Surely the bar for the mental health defence would need to be very high indeed. I imagine that mental health must be a factor for the accused in many criminal cases. If FFC is successful, it would IMO set a very public precedent.

(snipped) There is a second factor though required for a section 14 application.

Your section 14 application will succeed if you are able to persuade the court that:

1. You have a mental health impairment or cognitive impairment, and
2. It is more appropriate to deal with you under the section than otherwise in accordance with the law.

Section 14: Mental Health Applications in the Local Court | Sydney Criminal Lawyers

Going to court while battling a mental health issue? Our lawyers have a proven track record of having cases dismissed due to mental health.

www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au

That "more appropriate" looks like a wide space for the judge's discretion.

 

[KateM]

Oh l definitely agree! I just couldn’t remember where l had seen someone make that claim and thought it maybe her. I will say that at least she is an experienced journalist and writer as compared to that other book written by the local gossip.

T l

No they weren’t, my wording was totally incorrect. I should have made reference to CS’s parents being believed by many at various points, esp early on to have had something to do with her disappearance, much like the FC’s in this case. i apologise for the misunderstandin.

There are a few quite worrying aspects of this case that we have discussed before in this forum that have got me thinking:
- the reports of William’s bruising
- FFC describing her difficulties bonding with William and his hitting and biting
- the reports of the other child in the FCs care (we assume is his sister) being bruised
- the alleged assault and stalking/intimidation of the other child
- the many inconsistencies in the FCs reports of what happened that morning
- FFCs controlling tone in her police statements and in the Where's William podcast
- no public expression of remorse or regret for "losing" William expressed in the 60 minutes interview nor in the WW podcast by either of the FCs (nor in any of the police statements publicly available that I have been able to read)
- the fact that she is now claiming she has a mental impairment

This all leads me to the distressing thought that it is possible that the FFC flew into a rage and in the heat of the moment killed William. Sadly, I think that there are signs (some of which are mentioned above) that she may have been capable of this. All speculation and JMO.

The fact that the FFC is the person of interest and not the MFC, leads me to believe that the police know more just her drive to the driving school...

 

[KateM]

What if the PTSD was not very strong, but then new circumstances heightened the symptoms?

What if the Task Force's new efforts to rattle and pressure the Foster Parents did trigger her PTSD?

If she suddenly was named in the press and on TV and radio, as the Guilty party, would that trigger her symptoms?

And if the task force had a conversation with the bio family, saying she buried William in the garden, would that trigger her, given that her foster child would now see her as a child killer?

I would most certainly be having mental health issues if my daughter thought I had killed her little brother years ago. I would be so upset if I was in that situation, where everyone around me mistakenly thought I killed my little boy. I can't imagine how I would cope.

That's a lot of assumptions just there...

 

[KateM]

Surely this scenario is as much a possibility as William having an accident, as well as being abducted either from 48 Benaroon Drive or even possibly William wandering into the bush and being taken from in there. (Even though MFC was emphatic William wasn’t a wanderer, but there is a first time for everything As they say)

What is the evidence that William was abducted? Did anyone else see the mystery cars the FFC did? Did anyone else notice anyone or anything strange in the location? Cos we have heard reports of witness’s close by hearing children playing at certain times. Well, what about eye witness accounts of suspicious activity? Cos surely on a dead end street (not discounting the drive through into the bush off road), locals Would be very aware of anything out of place?

Occams Razor, while not a science by any stretch, might lead one to formulate a speculative theory quite easily imo. While it’s important to remain open minded, it’s also important to use sense and logic, jmo.

If William wasn't a wanderer then why did the FFC drive that distance to the riding school?

 

[JLZ]

T l



The fact that the FFC is the person of interest and not the MFC, leads me to believe that the police know more just her drive to the driving school...

No, it makes me think that MFC has an invincible alibi.

 

[Couldbe]

There are a few quite worrying aspects of this case that we have discussed before in this forum that have got me thinking:
- the reports of William’s bruising
- FFC describing her difficulties bonding with William and his hitting and biting
- the reports of the other child in the FCs care (we assume is his sister) being bruised
- the alleged assault and stalking/intimidation of the other child
- the many inconsistencies in the FCs reports of what happened that morning
- FFCs controlling tone in her police statements and in the Where's William podcast
- no public expression of remorse or regret for "losing" William expressed in the 60 minutes interview nor in the WW podcast by either of the FCs (nor in any of the police statements publicly available that I have been able to read)
- the fact that she is now claiming she has a mental impairment

This all leads me to the distressing thought that it is possible that the FFC flew into a rage and in the heat of the moment killed William. Sadly, I think that there are signs (some of which are mentioned above) that she may have been capable of this. All speculation and JMO.

SleepyJoe, I respect your professional opinions that I have seen you post here on Websleuths, and here are my thoughts following on from your post:
As described by FFC and FFGM with regard to William’s exuberant (beside himself with excitement) behaviour on that fateful morning, it does seem that whatever activity the FFC was involved with in playing with him, it didn’t go smoothly:-

1. A very masculine little boy (FFGM said); 2) Deliberately crashing his bike into the garden; 3) Chucking the dice instead of gently throwing it; 3) Not wanting to do drawings for Opa’s grave; 4) Didn’t want to climb the tree (too high); 5) Preferred to be noisy - roaring like a daddy tiger and mummy monster; 6) Finally jumping off the back deck instead of remaining where the FFC and FFGM could keep an eye on him;

Just saying ……. Did FFC finally become exasperated (especially when she and FFGM were trying to enjoy a cup of tea (that FFC had freshly made)? Can imagine that the cup of tea was well-deserved by then.

FFC and FFGM were the last ones to see William, both of them have said, while they were enjoying that cup of tea.

With FFC more recently being named as a POI, suspicion has been raised about the possibility of her being responsible in some way for William’s disappearance. JMO…. maybe FFC finally ‘lost it’ and then panicked about what had happened.

 

[T-dawg420]

If William wasn't a wanderer then why did the FFC drive that distance to the riding school?

Great question. I’ve always wondered that. The MFC clearly stated that in the police walk through.

 

[SleepyJoe]

SleepyJoe, I respect your professional opinions that I have seen you post here on Websleuths, and here are my thoughts following on from your post:
As described by FFC and FFGM with regard to William’s exuberant (beside himself with excitement) behaviour on that fateful morning, it does seem that whatever activity the FFC was involved with in playing with him, it didn’t go smoothly:-

1. A very masculine little boy (FFGM said); 2) Deliberately crashing his bike into the garden; 3) Chucking the dice instead of gently throwing it; 3) Not wanting to do drawings for Opa’s grave; 4) Didn’t want to climb the tree (too high); 5) Preferred to be noisy - roaring like a daddy tiger and mummy monster; 6) Finally jumping off the back deck instead of remaining where the FFC and FFGM could keep an eye on him;

Just saying ……. Did FFC finally become exasperated (especially when she and FFGM were trying to enjoy a cup of tea (that FFC had freshly made)? Can imagine that the cup of tea was well-deserved by then.

FFC and FFGM were the last ones to see William, both of them have said, while they were enjoying that cup of tea.

With FFC more recently being named as a POI, suspicion has been raised about the possibility of her being responsible in some way for William’s disappearance. JMO…. maybe FFC finally ‘lost it’ and then panicked about what had happened.

Thanks CouldBe! You make an excellent point. Yes, it sounds like William was a bit of a handful that morning (like many 3 yo boys can be - I can attest to that LOL). Perhaps this triggered FFC. As you say, perhaps she got exasperated, frustrated and snapped. That is a very plausible scenario.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Just a reminder.
The Searching for Spiderman book is not approved for discussing on WS.


Chumley's book "Searching for Spiderman" is not approved.

Gary Jubelin's book and Caroline Overington's book are the only two that are approved for discussion at this time"

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #55

Late to the party as usual :rolleyes: As far as the enquiry into PS leading 'absolutely no-where' - well may be it did and maybe it didn't - are you saying he shouldn't have even tried? In addition, it was mentioned at Jubes trial, by Laura Bancroft (who is no longer on the strike force) that...

www.websleuths.com