Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

Curiouskatz11

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FFC couldn’t name the nearest cross street in her call to Police.

MFC however…

William Tyrrell’s foster father appeared on the third day of the inquest and gave a detailed account of how he had searched for days, jumping fences and scouring bush, after the toddler disappeared.

A trail bike enthusiast and owner of a four-wheel-drive, he told the inquest that he had ridden “extensively” around Kendall State Forest.

It just occurred to me, pure speculation only, that maybe MFC knew FGM before forming a relationship with FFC. Just given that he seems so familiar with the Kendall area, plus apparently routinely organised family visits to FGM.
 

Curiouskatz11

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FFC couldn’t name the nearest cross street in her call to Police.

MFC however…

William Tyrrell’s foster father appeared on the third day of the inquest and gave a detailed account of how he had searched for days, jumping fences and scouring bush, after the toddler disappeared.

A trail bike enthusiast and owner of a four-wheel-drive, he told the inquest that he had ridden “extensively” around Kendall State Forest.

It just occurred to me, pure speculation only, that maybe MFC knew FGM before forming a relationship with FFC. Just given that he seems so familiar with the Kendall area, plus apparently routinely organised family visits to FGM.
 

Couldbe

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I'm going to say something maybe stupid. Is he looking for a family, and so when there are these families who've lost a member, they fit together?
JMO - I think I have now grasped what you are demonstrating JLZ, but in the case of the Fosters they are different to the Levesons .... in that they, as the most recent people to have seen him, provided inconsistent information about their activities in relation to William's disappearance.
 

SouthAussie

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I'm going to say something maybe stupid. Is he looking for a family, and so when there are these families who've lost a member, they fit together?

I don't think so. Jubes has his own loving family.

His daughter is a huge support ... if you google 'Gary Jubelin daughter' you will see photos of them together, including his daughter supporting him through his trial (there is a very public photo of them outside Downing Centre court after his conviction).
He has at least one grandson (pics of him holding the little one on Google).
He has a son in the ADF (pic of him with his son on Google) who he flew to Portugal to see when his son was on two weeks leave from a tour in Afghanistan.
(ETA: I just noticed a pic of his son with Jubes and his daughter walking to/from Downing Centre court .. so his son made it to the trial as well.)
Jubes visits with his own mother who lives somewhere on the NSW coast (which I read in his book, I believe).

His book speaks of a significant other who is/was a member of the police force. That relationship went better because his partner understood the demands on a Homicide Detective.

He also practises yoga/meditation daily - to keep his zen - and goes on the occassional retreat (from his book).

He did say in an article that when his (2) marriages fell apart he absorbed himself in his work. It was worse for the criminals.



(I am not going to link all of the articles, as they are paywalled, but you can clearly see the article photos on Google ... and follow the links to the articles if you wish.)
 
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nightrider17

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Also Jubes wasn't the first on the scene he took over from the previous guy. So I am thinking whoever that was is where the slippage occurred as far as not firming down timelines with the first 3 people who last saw him. MOO
 

nightrider17

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I especially believe its crucial in the beginning to ascertain timelines - to firm down car sightings, hearing cars turning, peoples walks, while people are still alive and can recall. Later health may be deteriorating, because the street is the pivotal spot - so the comings and goings of all the people and what they saw and heard need to be documented. It is true cold cases can be revived due to people now willing to give evidence(maybe afraid before) new technology/science and fresh perspective.

But - I still believe that the first detective's fact gathering may have been lacking. MOO
 

Detective Willy

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Things have been quiet for a little while now and I am hoping this is a good thing.

Hopefully the "legwork" is quietly being done in the background (and not in the media) and something significant will come out later this year?
 

Couldbe

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William Tyrrell case: former detective defends previous investigation into boy’s disappearance
“Jubelin said he had formed a friendship with William’s foster parents and believed the foster mother to be “a very decent human being”.

JMO - Would it have been possible to hand back the 12 year old girl to the Foster Organisation instead of persisting with the fostering arrangement?

New details revealed about assault allegations against William Tyrrell's foster parents after suppression lifted
“Police claim the couple was attempting to intervene in the child's "problematic behaviour".

The allegations include that she was placed in a time-out period for 44 minutes, that the girl was grabbed about the neck, kicked and hit with a wooden spoon, causing her pain.

It is also alleged William's foster mother suggested if the girl defecated on the floor, she would rub the child's face in it.”

JMO - In dishing out this ‘discipline’ (alleged Common Assault) in the manner in which they chose to intervene when the girl was displaying her animosity toward them ….. I am wondering what result they expected to achieve?

Did they expect that it would reverse her feelings towards them?

Does it display how they become physical when they have ‘reached the end of their tether’?
 

Curiouser+Curiouser

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I'm going to say something maybe stupid. Is he looking for a family, and so when there are these families who've lost a member, they fit together?
From the research and books I've read over the years, detectives often stay in touch with the families. They get to know them so well I guess. Deepest secrets are brought out into the open and it becomes clear if they are decent people or not. I mean, unless they are arch manipulators with no conscience and a fine line in bs.
 

kiwi50

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From the research and books I've read over the years, detectives often stay in touch with the families. They get to know them so well I guess. Deepest secrets are brought out into the open and it becomes clear if they are decent people or not. I mean, unless they are arch manipulators with no conscience and a fine line in bs.
Yes I still trust Gary Jubelin’s opinion and judgment.
 

Detective Willy

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Thinking more about the alleged assault on Williams sister:

IMO this audio must have been captured on a covert "listening device".

My reasons are:

1) It has been reported exactly to the minute how long the verbal tirade went on for
2) It has been reported the sequence of the assault - FFC started first and was then joined by the MFC.
3) It has been reported the exact things that were allegedly being said to Williams sister (rubbing her nose in faeces etc)

Former detective Gary Jubelin was previously found guilty of illegally recording conversations whilst investigating this case so NSW Police would not make the same mistake again and are likely to have approval from a judge or magistrate to be conducting these newer recordings IMO.

I also think a judge or magistrate would not grant approval for listening devices to be used against the previous Foster Carers unless NSW Police had presented a very strong case for them to be used.

Further food for thought..
 

SouthAussie

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Thinking more about the alleged assault on Williams sister:

IMO this audio must have been captured on a covert "listening device".

My reasons are:

1) It has been reported exactly to the minute how long the verbal tirade went on for
2) It has been reported the sequence of the assault - FFC started first and was then joined by the MFC.
3) It has been reported the exact things that were allegedly being said to Williams sister (rubbing her nose in faeces etc)

For all we know, the neighbours could have reported what they heard. I imagine that people hearing loud yelling might hear what it was about and know how long it went on.

If so, I wonder why no-one reported it at the time. I get the impression that it was mandatory reporting from the teacher that alerted police.

I keep thinking of what the neighbours heard. Probably because in the Ristevski case it was never publicly reported that the neighbours heard anything, but we all thought they must have because Borce admitted to a fight with Karen on the morning she disappeared.

In the heat of the moment, many people don't think about what others can hear. imo
 

Detective Willy

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For all we know, the neighbours could have reported what they heard. I imagine that people hearing loud yelling might hear what it was about and know how long it went on.

If so, I wonder why no-one reported it at the time. I get the impression that it was mandatory reporting from the teacher that alerted police.

I keep thinking of what the neighbours heard. Probably because in the Ristevski case it was never publicly reported that the neighbours heard anything, but we all thought they must have because Borce admitted to a fight with Karen on the morning she disappeared.

In the heat of the moment, many people don't think about what others can hear. imo
I don't think this the case.

As an example - if I reported my neighbours for screaming at their children they would not be charged by Police.

Police would likely attend the house and ask questions but they would not be charged merely from a complaint by a neighbour. I also doubt a neighbour took out a stop watch and timed exactly how long the verbal abuse went for unless of course it was a common occurrence?

Police seem to know exactly what happened (in lots of detail) and hence my belief they have heard it "word for word".
 

PrimeSuspect

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Thinking more about the alleged assault on Williams sister:

IMO this audio must have been captured on a covert "listening device".

My reasons are:

1) It has been reported exactly to the minute how long the verbal tirade went on for
2) It has been reported the sequence of the assault - FFC started first and was then joined by the MFC.
3) It has been reported the exact things that were allegedly being said to Williams sister (rubbing her nose in faeces etc)

Former detective Gary Jubelin was previously found guilty of illegally recording conversations whilst investigating this case so NSW Police would not make the same mistake again and are likely to have approval from a judge or magistrate to be conducting these newer recordings IMO.

I also think a judge or magistrate would not grant approval for listening devices to be used against the previous Foster Carers unless NSW Police had presented a very strong case for them to be used.

Further food for thought..
GJ had received approval to place a listening device on the FP’s car before they were ruled out, it’s highly likely it was approved again. WA’s cops received worldwide praise for their handling of CS’s investigation, it was a good incentive for NSWPOL to gain back public approval with WT’s investigation with a new focus on the FPs, FM was named as a POI, an approval would be guaranteed, imo.

The listening devices at PS’s house were approved by a magistrate for surveillance for a specific time, but the warrant had expired when GJ recorded a further four interactions with PS, this needs to stated because it’s misleading otherwise.

I don’t agree there needs to be a very strong case for a listening device to be used, if the police state their reasons to a magistrate, why would they disallow it, they’ve got nothing to work on but what’s put before them unless it obviously appears to be frivolous, which SFR is not under any circumstances.

JMO

 

Detective Willy

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GJ had received approval to place a listening device on the FP’s car before they were ruled out, it’s highly likely it was approved again. WA’s cops received worldwide praise for their handling of CS’s investigation, it was a good incentive for NSWPOL to gain back public approval with WT’s investigation with a new focus on the FPs, FM was named as a POI, an approval would be guaranteed, imo.

The listening devices at PS’s house were approved by a magistrate for surveillance for a specific time, but the warrant had expired when GJ recorded a further four interactions with PS, this needs to stated because it’s misleading otherwise.

I don’t agree there needs to be a very strong case for a listening device to be used, if the police state their reasons to a magistrate, why would they disallow it, they’ve got nothing to work on but what’s put before them unless it obviously appears to be frivolous, which SFR is not under any circumstances.

JMO

So would you agree PS that Police likely captured the alleged "Assault" by a listening device they had planted?
 

Detective Willy

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There is another matter in the news yesterday where Police have 1000+ hours of bugged conversations that they narrowed down to 75 hours and a jury may have to listen to 40+ hours of this:


I guess this is where the saying "the walls have ears" comes from.

P.S I feel very sorry for the way this poor guy departed - in a woodchipper! Yikes.
 

PrimeSuspect

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So would you agree PS that Police likely captured the alleged "Assault" by a listening device they had planted?
They may well have, they’d need to piece it together though, ask for neighbour witnesses because the devices wouldn’t be all over the house. The bedrooms wouldn’t have been bugged, imo.

If the conversation/discussion began in the living room or kitchen, the police would need the child to recount the sequence of events as they occurred in other rooms. This is where it gets pretty hairy. It will be interesting to learn what actually happened and how much the police KNOW or are assuming.
This is a very distressing situation for all involved, especially Lindsay. It’s shocking to hear adults losing control and making threats, even if it’s common in many households when disciplining children. What will the courts make of it?

But in saying that, has it got anything to do with WT’s disappearance?
I’ve looked into various cases of mysterious disappearances/unsolved murders, there’s been blowouts between family members when it’s 100% no family were involved. There’s been alcohol abuse, financial loss, mental breakdowns, family estrangements, suicides, so I’m not on the bandwagon these allegations are some kind of evidence the FM is guilty of harming WT and/or hiding his remains.
If the last proof of life is correct, I believe it’s not probable. It’s more likely he was abducted, or died after falling into a hole or stuck in a tight spot and hasn’t been found yet. :(
JMO
 

SouthAussie

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I don't think this the case.

As an example - if I reported my neighbours for screaming at their children they would not be charged by Police.

Police would likely attend the house and ask questions but they would not be charged merely from a complaint by a neighbour. I also doubt a neighbour took out a stop watch and timed exactly how long the verbal abuse went for unless of course it was a common occurrence?

Police seem to know exactly what happened (in lots of detail) and hence my belief they have heard it "word for word".

I didn't say anything about the charges. What I am getting at is that the neighbours may have been able to supply context and timespan of the yelling. If the police were looking for independent witnesses, as they usually would. imo

The report apparently does not give an exact timespan ..... "up to 15 minutes".



"The report states police will allege ..... that lasted up to 15 minutes."

 
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FromGermany1

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When the last search for little W started and the new POI was named, the situation at the FC's home became not only thrilling for LE, but also very dangerous for little sister L, I can imagine. So bugging would have been the only method to watch, what was going on in the home since then. MOO
 
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