Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #73

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JBowie

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I find this verdict a farce quite frankly.

We know that FFC did lie to the crime commission when she said that she did not strike the child however she was found not to knowingly lie???

Therefore, Magistrate Miranda Moody found that FFC lied without knowing it???

Excuse me while I scratch my head and try to work this out.

It seems evident that she clearly lied to the crime commission "accidently".

IMO she was lucky to get off on a legal technicality because apparently the police didn't make her aware that they had recordings of her -- and my guess is that was to conceal the fact that her house was bugged by them at the time.

I guess she claimed that she didn't understand the question, or some such, and the bench believed her.

IMO, the cops came across as being ham-fisted in this instance.

(It seems that the Crime Commission doesn't operate like a Royal Commission where we have seen, time and again, the counsel assisting put something to the witness, get a denial in response and then proceed to play a recording showing the witness doing exactly what they just denied.)
 

PrimeSuspect

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"If a fellow was guilty, I could well see why someone would break. It was intense. It just got really, really intense from that point onwards," Mr Spedding said.

Mr Spedding's lawyer Peter O'Brien said he later discovered police were wrong about Mr Spedding's mobile phone.


**part of interrogation video in article.


Police at the time were dead set BS was responsible, now it’s the FM’s turn. Imo, the investigators haven’t a clue and hoped the guilty would break but they won’t and can’t, if they’re NOT guilty. But the same could be said for a hardened criminal, a psychopath, I suppose, is this what we have here? I think not.

There’s no evidence, no logical, tested theory that fits the time frame and the circumstances for fm to have disposed of William.

Cops are fallible, like every human on the planet, they can make something fit if they want to, as we do here, certain cops can appease the baying crowd and when their collective theory is proven to be wrong, it’s no skin off their nose, there’s other cases, as Scott Cook coldly reminded his staff and victims several years ago, it still holds true today.
The crowd were crucifying a WA mother not long ago, and word for word made the same accusations as in WT’s case.

JMO
 

Couldbe

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JMO - Wondering: Besides knowing who had snatched William, what method of questioning could have been used by Detectives to examine if an abduction had occurred:-

………. what evidence would be needed to eliminate him being snatched’ (Timeframe available … as per FFM?)

……… what the reasons would be for him being snatched; (Sexual / passing him on to someone else?)

…….. what method would be possible in him being snatched; (Planned / Lure / enter and grab / opportunistic pick-up from roadway?)

…….. what would the possible place be, for him to be taken after being snatched. (Nearby premises / nearby vehicle / walk him away?)


After exhausting this avenue of investigation, have they reached a conclusion with regard to abduction?
 

SouthAussie

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"If a fellow was guilty, I could well see why someone would break. It was intense. It just got really, really intense from that point onwards," Mr Spedding said.

Mr Spedding's lawyer Peter O'Brien said he later discovered police were wrong about Mr Spedding's mobile phone.


**part of interrogation video in article.


Police at the time were dead set BS was responsible, now it’s the FM’s turn. Imo, the investigators haven’t a clue and hoped the guilty would break but they won’t and can’t, if they’re NOT guilty. But the same could be said for a hardened criminal, a psychopath, I suppose, is this what we have here? I think not.

There’s no evidence, no logical, tested theory that fits the time frame and the circumstances for fm to have disposed of William.

Cops are fallible, like every human on the planet, they can make something fit if they want to, as we do here, certain cops can appease the baying crowd and when their collective theory is proven to be wrong, it’s no skin off their nose, there’s other cases, as Scott Cook coldly reminded his staff and victims several years ago, it still holds true today.
The crowd were crucifying a WA mother not long ago, and word for word made the same accusations as in WT’s case.

JMO

And when the police did 'later discover they were wrong about Mr Spedding's mobile phone', they did not publicly clear BS. They just said nothing. We didn't know about the mobile phone until the inquest, even though the police apparently knew.

For all we know, FM may not even still be an active POI in William's disappearance. Even though they found no evidence, the police are not going to tell us if that clears her. We will have to wait for the inquest to resume ( ... when it finally resumes in the year 2035 or later!)

imo
 

Chrissy74

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It's like they can't admit that they were wrong :mad:
When you say “found no evidence”, are you referring to finding Ws body? An arrest can’t be made simply from finding a body. The body would require an autopsy and the coroner’s findings would form part of the evidence that ties in with all the other evidence in order to make a case.

To say there’s no evidence against the Ffc being involved in Ws disappearance isn’t true.

In BS interview with police he clearly denies having any involvement in Ws disappearance however investigators were not solely reliant on a confession. They would need evidence to support this. BS was able to prove in court with evidence that he was not in Benaroon drive on the day and at the time W went missing which through this process eliminated him as a POI.
Ws biological parents were also able to prove with evidence that they were not in Benaroon Dr on the day and at the time W went missing so again through this process they were eliminated as POI.

The same can’t be said for the Ffc. She may not confess to a crime being committed but all the evidence shows that she was definitely there at the fgm house on the day and at the time W disappeared. What evidence does the Ffc have to prove she’s not responsible for W vanishing that morning? If the only people there at the house that morning apparently didn’t see what happened to W then what evidence would police then rely on to verify their stories ? Police statements. Witness statements. Phone records. Cctv. Obviously there’s not enough evidence to completely rule her out as a POI which is why GJ should never have publicly announced that Ffc wasn’t a POI as early as he did.

My point is this. What supporting evidence does the Ffc have to prove she wasn’t involved in Ws disappearance other than to just take her word for it?
If LE don’t have enough sufficient evidence to rule the Ffc out then it only makes sense she remain a POI until proven otherwise
 
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SouthAussie

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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

If there was any evidence, it was pretty poor evidence. Because William was not found where Lonergan and Jamieson were 'certain' he is. Their opinions are not evidence.

Hence my wondering if this now excludes FM in the Coroner's eyes. Was this her final push to rule in or rule out all theories.


Jamieson, who told the woman police knew where William Tyrrell’s body was and what happened to him, also denied deliberately lying about it.
“I knew the area in which I believed William was,” Jamieson told the court.
 
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SouthAussie

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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... there is no evidence that FM is involved.

If William had been found in the big dig, the police might have tried to build a case that FM put him there. Having driven that way that morning.

But as William was not found in the big dig, the drive is nothing but a drive to look for her missing son. That 'circumstantial evidence' is no longer (and probably never really was) circumstantial evidence.

imo
 
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drsleuth

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When you say “found no evidence”, are you referring to finding Ws body? An arrest can’t be made simply from finding a body. The body would require an autopsy and the coroner’s findings would form part of the evidence that ties in with all the other evidence in order to make a case.

To say there’s no evidence against the Ffc being involved in Ws disappearance isn’t true.

In BS interview with police he clearly denies having any involvement in Ws disappearance however investigators were not solely reliant on a confession. They would need evidence to support this. BS was able to prove in court with evidence that he was not in Benaroon drive on the day and at the time W went missing which through this process eliminated him as a POI.
Ws biological parents were also able to prove with evidence that they were not in Benaroon Dr on the day and at the time W went missing so again through this process they were eliminated as POI.

The same can’t be said for the Ffc. She may not confess to a crime being committed but all the evidence shows that she was definitely there at the fgm house on the day and at the time W disappeared. What evidence does the Ffc have to prove she’s not responsible for W vanishing that morning? If the only people there at the house that morning apparently didn’t see what happened to W then what evidence would police then rely on to verify their stories ? Police statements. Witness statements. Phone records. Cctv. Obviously there’s not enough evidence to completely rule her out as a POI which is why GJ should never have publicly announced that Ffc wasn’t a POI as early as he did.

My point is this. What supporting evidence does the Ffc have to prove she wasn’t involved in Ws disappearance other than to just take her word for it?
If LE don’t have enough sufficient evidence to rule the Ffc out then it only makes sense she remain a POI until proven otherwise

SFR has had over a year to provide the evidence from their " big dig" , I guess, one can assume that they found no evidence IMO


Would have been handy if the FFC had a GO PRO fitted to herself that morning.......
 

Couldbe

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SFR has had over a year to provide the evidence from their " big dig" , I guess, one can assume that they found no evidence IMO


Would have been handy if the FFC had a GO PRO fitted to herself that morning.......
When the FFC took the drive in her Mother's Mazda it appears that she didn't take her mobile phone with her. It wasn't until she had returned and retrieved her phone from inside the house that she found the text message from the MFC.
 

LolaAngelina

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When the FFC took the drive in her Mother's Mazda it appears that she didn't take her mobile phone with her. It wasn't until she had returned and retrieved her phone from inside the house that she found the text message from the MFC.
Where does it say that in the article?
 

Couldbe

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Where does it say that in the article?
BBM - JMO - taken from this link to information regarding FFC not taking her mobile phone with her on the drive:

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52

“10:30-10:56 : FFC ran to AMS’s house, asked if saw little boy in spiderman suit? , AMS said no, suggested bus stop on Crn Benaroon Drive & Batar Creek Rd, FFC ran to bus stop , heard the “scream” , ran back to # 48 Benaroon Drive, got in FGM car & drove looking for WT, drove down Batar Ck Rd, thought he could not have gotten that far, went back to FGM house, ran inside & got her mobile phone, saw message from MFC, she ran out to driveway , just as MFC drove in & asked him “ Have you got William?” “ No , why would I have William?” . I can’t find him the FFC said. MFC took off frantically looking for William.”
 

TootsieFootsie

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Would have been handy if the FFC had a GO PRO fitted to herself that morning......
Maybe we should all wear one, all the time, just in case something ever happens and we end up the target of a witch hunt.
But I guess even then there will be those who would say we edited the GO PRO or something.

Nothing would ever convince them, once they have someone in their sights.
 

Chrissy74

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Maybe we should all wear one, all the time, just in case something ever happens and we end up the target of a witch hunt.
But I guess even then there will be those who would say we edited the GO PRO or something.

Nothing would ever convince them, once they have someone in their sights.
Speaking for myself, the only person I have in my sights on is WT . As for the GoPro suggestion from DrSleuth and PrimeSuspect, that’s not a bad idea esp in situations like these where the 3 adults who were the last people to see W alive all gave different versions of events in their statements to police. Footage on a GoPro would have been handy in determining whose version was truth and whose wasn’t.?

What time did mfc leave for his online business meeting that morning? Was it 8am as the fgm suggested? Was it just before 9am as Ffc suggested? Was it 9:30 as mfc suggested? Or was it 8:40 as cctv from the tennis club suggested? Or was it 9:30 as Carline Overinhton suggested being the correct time from phone tower ping evidence?

Or perhaps mfc made 2 trips that morning. 1 early trip around to the local Kendall store to get the newspaper maybe some bread milk and his car was captured by cctv at 8:40 on his return to fgm house. Then another trip at 9:30 for business call and pharmacy as his phone was pinging off the local towers.

What time were kids riding their bikes that morning? Ffc says kids were riding their bikes between 9 and 9:30. Mfc says he thinks he may have been there at the time kids were riding their bikes up and down the driveway. Fgm doesn’t mention the bike rides at all and says they were all on the back patio by around 9am.

What time did Ffc and fgm realise W was missing? Was it 10:30 as Ffc suggested and tells mfc W has only been missing for 5min.
Or was it closer to 10am as fgm suggested as they were all on the back patio for about an hr (so from 9 to 10) when W got bored and decided to run around to the side of the house.

What time were the last photos of W taken? Metadata retrieved from the digital camera suggest 7:37 but with a corrected time of 9:35 which btw wasn’t correct by digital forensics but by the fp , which is why the photos were questioned by the coroner and to date there has been no definitive answer by the coroner as to why there was a 2hr 2min and 10sec difference on the time stamps .

What time did Ffc drive to Batar creek rd looking for W? I have no starting point on this one as Ffc has never spoken about it in any interviews with police or 60min or LH podcast. Was it before mfc returned home or after he returned?

Just to name a few
 
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Detective Willy

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Speaking for myself, the only person I have in my sights is WT . As for the GoPro suggestion from DrSleuth and PrimeSuspect, that’s not a bad idea esp in situations like these where the 3 adults who were the last people to see W alive all gave different versions of events in their statements to police. Footage on a GoPro would have been handy in determining whose version was truth and whose wasn’t.?

What time did mfc leave for his online business meeting that morning? Was it 8am as the fgm suggested? Was it just before 9am as Ffc suggested? Was it 9:30 as mfc suggested? Or was it 8:40 as cctv from the tennis club suggested? Or was it 9:30 as Carline Overinhton suggested being the correct time from phone tower ping evidence?

Or perhaps mfc made 2 trips that morning. 1 early trip around to the local Kendall store to get the newspaper maybe some bread milk and his car was captured by cctv at 8:40 on his return to fgm house. Then another trip at 9:30 for business call and pharmacy as his phone was pinging off the local towers.

What time were kids riding their bikes that morning? Ffc says kids were riding their bikes between 9 and 9:30. Mfc says he thinks he may have been there at the time kids were riding their bikes up and down the driveway. Fgm doesn’t mention the bike rides at all and says they were all on the back patio by around 9am.

What time did Ffc and fgm realise W was missing? Was it 10:30 as Ffc suggested and tells mfc W has only been missing for 5min.
Or was it closer to 10am as fgm suggested as they were all on the back patio for about an hr (so from 9 to 10) when W got bored and decided to run around to the side of the house.

What time were the last photos of W taken? Metadata retrieved from the digital camera suggest 7:37 but with a corrected time of 9:35 which btw wasn’t correct by digital forensics but by the fp , which is why the photos were questioned by the coroner and to date there has been no definitive answer by the coroner as to why there was a 2hr 2min and 10sec difference on the time stamps .

What time did Ffc drive to Batar creek rd looking for W? I have no starting point on this one as Ffc has never spoken about it in any interviews with police or 60min or LH podcast. Was it before mfc returned home or after he returned?

Just to name a few
You are not alone in your thoughts Chrissy.

The changing stories and inconsistencies have been a shining beacon to me.

I think this is obviously why SFR continues down the current path and I absolutely do not believe this is a witch hunt.

Just because you can't prove that someone did something it does not mean they didn't do it.

Thousands of people get away with thousands of crimes every day.
 

SouthAussie

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Fgm doesn’t mention the bike rides at all and says they were all on the back patio by around 9am.

Taken from inquest evidence .....


* FGM said “ Okay , let’s see your new bikes”

* Both kids raced to carport ( MFC had taken bikes out of car the evening before )

* Kids rode up & down the driveway , only going as far as the road & not over the kerb.

* After a few laps WT suggested they have a race . so they did & took off to the end of the driveway. Lindsay stopped in the middle of the driveway & said “whose that car Mummy?” , FFC looked & saw dark green -grey sedan pull into the Millers driveway & reverse out & leave, she said “ I don’t know , probably the neighbours”

* Kids were than back riding their bikes , Lindsay lost her balance coming down the driveway & fell into the garden, she was not hurt, WT than decided he would crash his bike into the garden also.

* FGM than said “I think it’s time to put these bikes away”

Timeline
 

Chrissy74

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Taken from inquest evidence .....


* FGM said “ Okay , let’s see your new bikes”

* Both kids raced to carport ( MFC had taken bikes out of car the evening before )

* Kids rode up & down the driveway , only going as far as the road & not over the kerb.

* After a few laps WT suggested they have a race . so they did & took off to the end of the driveway. Lindsay stopped in the middle of the driveway & said “whose that car Mummy?” , FFC looked & saw dark green -grey sedan pull into the Millers driveway & reverse out & leave, she said “ I don’t know , probably the neighbours”

* Kids were than back riding their bikes , Lindsay lost her balance coming down the driveway & fell into the garden, she was not hurt, WT than decided he would crash his bike into the garden also.

* FGM than said “I think it’s time to put these bikes away”

Timeline
Inquest evidence from who? FGM was not called as a witness to give evidence. Fgm walkthrough with police does not mention anything about the kids riding their bikes that morning.
Ffc says the bike riding was sometime after 9 and no later than 9:30. Fgm says after breakfast around 9 she washed the dishes and then headed out to the back patio where the Ffc and kids were already there playing/drawing.

And just to clarify, fgm doesn’t mention anything about seeing the man in the teal car who by Ffc account drove past the house that morning while the kids were riding their bikes.
L stopped and asked “who’s that mummy”. The driver looked at Ffc and Ffc looked at the driver, eyes locked on each other as he drives away. Did ffc ask fgm if she knew who the driver was?
 
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SouthAussie

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Inquest evidence from who? FGM was not called as a witness to give evidence. Fgm walkthrough with police does not mention anything about the kids riding their bikes that morning.
Ffc says the bike riding was sometime after 9 and no later than 9:30. Fgm says after breakfast around 9 she washed the dishes and then headed out to the back patio where the Ffc and kids were already there playing/drawing

Maybe FGM was 'Tanya' or 'Amy'.


"Two mystery women, listed only by the pseudonyms of “Amy” and “Tanya”, appear on the list."

Paedophile to testify at William Tyrrell inquest
 
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