Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[USARDOG]

While I agree about the possibility of drugs,I can still see KC holding Caylee down and enjoying it.IF she was in a rage her adreniline would be pumping and it would have been easy for her to do.

I can't... While she may be a killer, a bit##, a sociopath, i do not believe she is cruel enough to hold Caylee down, and tape her mouth. it is dangerous, difficult, and un-necessary with all the drugs in the house. it only makes sense to me that she would subdue Caylee with drugs before putting the tape over her mouth and nose, where she would then go quietly, without fuss or muss. Even that Marine who allegedly killed his family, it comes out now, did not want to do it while they were full aware, but drugged them first, then strangled them.

it is hard for us to comprehend the violence and impact of strangling someone who is conscious and struggling, all we have is the movies for reference. i do not believe even kc capable of this act, its just too much work.

 

[doobiedoo52]

Yes, my understanding is, tox results from hair were negative, and as a one time use, this is normal because it takes prolonged exposure for any drugs to get into hair. However, bones are a different matter, the blood supply will take the drug and deposit residue directly into the bones, and it is this residue that we have yet to hear about.

I agree that drug residue might show up in bone marrow, but only if it has been in the bloodstream long enough. This study on valium residue in bone
marrow was done after intraperitoneal injection (basically a shot into the body cavity). When we allow for oral administration of something like valium,
she would have to have been alive some time after the dosage was given for it to show up in the marrow. If that is the case, and tests show residue in the marrow, then it seems more likely that she was given fatal dose and not strangled in a fit of rage.

(1) Department of Legal Medicine, Hokkaido University School of Medicine, 060 Sapporo, Japan
(2) Present address: Department of Forensic Medicine Faculty of Medicine, University of Tokyo, 113 Tokyo, Japan
(3) Present address: Scientific Crime Laboratory, Hokkaido Police Headquarters, 060 Sapporo, Japan

Received: 30 July 1990 Revised: 8 May 1991

Summary The distribution of diazepam in biological fluids and tissues of rats was examined 1, 2, 4 and 8 h after intraperitoneal administration by using a radioimmunoassay with specific anti-diazepam antibody. The diazepam levels in serum, saliva, brain and bone marrow decreased over a period of 2h and levelled off 4h after administration. The diazepam concentration in bone marrow was much higher than in serum, saliva and brain, suggesting an accumulation of diazepam in this tissue. This indicates that bone marrow could be a very useful material for the detection of diazepam in skeletonized remains. The diazepam concentrations in bone marrow, serum, saliva and brain showed a linear relationship (r = 0.860–0.997), indicating that a valid estimate of diazepam concentration in blood can be made from bone marrow samples.

 

[USARDOG]

While a good article, and interesting research, i don't see where diazepam administered into the peritoneal cavity is of much value with regards to what we are talking about. We know that a syringe was recovered, which is a possible administrator, (im or iv) but more likely is oral administration, which would likely take an hour, 2 hours or more depending on how much hurry she was in.

 

[doobiedoo52]

While a good article, and interesting research, i don't see where diazepam administered into the peritoneal cavity is of much value with regards to what we are talking about. We know that a syringe was recovered, which is a possible administrator, (im or iv) but more likely is oral administration, which would likely take an hour, 2 hours or more depending on how much hurry she was in.

I was trying to support your theory on residue found in bone marrow with a study. I assumed diazepam (valium) could be a valid possibility of choice for drugging a child.

The diazepam concentrations in bone marrow, serum, saliva and brain showed a linear relationship (r = 0.860–0.997), indicating that a valid estimate of diazepam concentration in blood can be made from bone marrow samples.

 

[Baxter]

I agree that drug residue might show up in bone marrow, but only if it has been in the bloodstream long enough. This study on valium residue in bone
marrow was done after intraperitoneal injection (basically a shot into the body cavity). When we allow for oral administration of something like valium,
she would have to have been alive some time after the dosage was given for it to show up in the marrow. If that is the case, and tests show residue in the marrow, then it seems more likely that she was given fatal dose and not strangled in a fit of rage.

(1) Department of Legal Medicine, Hokkaido University School of Medicine, 060 Sapporo, Japan
(2) Present address: Department of Forensic Medicine Faculty of Medicine, University of Tokyo, 113 Tokyo, Japan
(3) Present address: Scientific Crime Laboratory, Hokkaido Police Headquarters, 060 Sapporo, Japan

Received: 30 July 1990 Revised: 8 May 1991

Summary The distribution of diazepam in biological fluids and tissues of rats was examined 1, 2, 4 and 8 h after intraperitoneal administration by using a radioimmunoassay with specific anti-diazepam antibody. The diazepam levels in serum, saliva, brain and bone marrow decreased over a period of 2h and levelled off 4h after administration. The diazepam concentration in bone marrow was much higher than in serum, saliva and brain, suggesting an accumulation of diazepam in this tissue. This indicates that bone marrow could be a very useful material for the detection of diazepam in skeletonized remains. The diazepam concentrations in bone marrow, serum, saliva and brain showed a linear relationship (r = 0.860–0.997), indicating that a valid estimate of diazepam concentration in blood can be made from bone marrow samples.

BBM
Why do you think that she was given a fatal dose of valium? I think that she was given the valium to relax her, then the duct tape then Casey suffocated Caylee.

 

[doobiedoo52]

BBM
Why do you think that she was given a fatal dose of valium? I think that she was given the valium to relax her, then the duct tape then Casey suffocated Caylee.

Because I still think the duct tape was her attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.

 

[USARDOG]

I was trying to support your theory on residue found in bone marrow with a study. I assumed diazepam (valium) could be a valid possibility of choice for drugging a child.

The diazepam concentrations in bone marrow, serum, saliva and brain showed a linear relationship (r = 0.860–0.997), indicating that a valid estimate of diazepam concentration in blood can be made from bone marrow samples.

Thank you, and please excuse me... my eyes are objecting to all the reading I have done in the last 4 years, and my Left eye has quite reading all together, and it leaves me a little short at the moment as I have lost, or more likely, the dogs have disposed of another pair! I end up not reading all the way through because it is a bit difficult and a bit painful right now.

 

[Devon]

your post edited for brevity.

i was forwarded an EXCELLENT article about Florida's sunshine law, the first authoritative article i have read on this mess. i believe the state has a lot more evidence, and what we have seen is only the tip of the iceberg. i believe tox results will come out showing drug residue in Caylee's bones.

The toxicology report on Caylee's bones has already been published and shows negative results:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85487"]Autopsy Report - Tox Report - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[USARDOG]

The state is not required to publish all of the results, as it is my understanding that the sunshine law has more holes than a screen door.

 

[USARDOG]

"The language of the statute itself provides that all records held by the state are "public records" that must be released to the public upon request. In a criminal case, an exemption applies so long as a "criminal investigation" or "active prosecution" is under way. This exemption does not apply to evidence that has been shared with a person who has been charged with a crime. In other words, any discovery, document, or piece of information given by the prosecution to Casey Anthony's attorneys is not covered by the exemption and must be released."

 

[USARDOG]

"...another broad-sweeping exception adopted by the Florida Supreme Court, which provides that evidence in criminal cases can be withheld from the public "to protect the defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial." In short, almost every piece of evidence that proves Casey's guilt need not be shared with the public prior to trial."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/full/

 

[doobiedoo52]

The toxicology report on Caylee's bones has already been published and shows negative results:

Autopsy Report - Tox Report - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Well, pooh! Guess that rules that out--it said all prescription drugs. So now we are back to drowning or suffocation I guess.

 

[USARDOG]

i'm not ready to throw in the towel on the drug angle until I hear it excluded in the trial.

 

[Jolynna]

I agree with you about KC holding Caylee down. It could have been, but I don't think is was in a rage necessarily either. I believe that the murder was done in a cold, methodical manner.

That is why I think the duct tape was placed before death, and I have never thought the death was accidental.

I think I believe this way because of the lack of emotion KC has shown toward her daughter and the events surrounding her murder.

I agree with you.

If somebody has icy enough veins to drug a child in advance in preparation for her murder and put duct tape over the child's face, that person is cruel enough to do whatever they have to do to complete what he or she started.

I think KC was full of repressed anger. Caylee isn't the first and won't be the last helpless innocent to become the object of deadly fury which was actually aimed at someone else.

IMO

 

[leemarie85]

The matted hair suggests to me that at some point her head was going side to side in such a manner to mat the hair after the duct tape was applied. Sounds like a struggle at some point. If her arms were free it seems she'd be trying to pull the tape off her mouth. If your arms aren't free it seems a side to side motion with your head would be an attempt to free yourself. As in an attempt to breathe.

Chico, your post just broke my heart all over again, only harder...:cry::no:The more I learn about the last few minutes of Caylee's life here on Earth, the more important it is to keep my faith in the Ultimate Justice that is coming to ths world soon (Revelation 21:4). That is my only hope, the Promise of a new Heaven and a new Earth. I do pray that she will get justice from the courts of the land, but alas, crooked lawyers and loopholes abound in this imperfect system of things. The evil done to God's children throughout history and continuing today makes me want to lay down and cry for the rest of my life; but I can't. I thank God daily that I have my own children, that they have been safe thus far. Sorry, not feeling well, so a little morose tonight. Sometimes I can be objective, look at this case as if it were a puzzle to solve, but other times I think I cannot stand to read one more word, my heart gets so heavy. But Caylee had endured this suffering; I need to KNOW it, so that I can be part of the collective conscience of the fine WS'ers here who work for JUSTICE for each and every one of these little lost and abused lambs who belong not to us, but to GOD. That's why we have a conscience...we ARE responsible for those who cannot care for themselves, humans young and old and infirm, animals, all of God's creation. Look at what all of the innocent have suffered...we CANNOT give up and say, "It's too much, I can't do it, I'm only one person, I'm disabled myself, what can I do?" They depend on US, and sometimes, we're all they have...
I'm sorry if I went too far OT, mods, throw me in the PL if you need to, or delete this post,OK?

 

[Bobbisangel]

The toxicology report on Caylee's bones has already been published and shows negative results:

Autopsy Report - Tox Report - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Not long ago a Medical Examiner on Nancy Grace said that it is nearly impossible to tell if Caylee was given a drug or not as there was no soft tissue or organs to work with. He said that no one can say she wasn't given drugs or that she was given them because you really need the soft tissue or organs to be sure. I think he is right. The bones may have shown neg results but according to him they needed the other to have a correct finding.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Hi ExpectingUnicorns, I think it is a case based on Circumstantial Evidence, and when everything is done and said it will be brazenly apparant Casey murdered her daughter.

It would have been peachy to have fingerprints inbetween the layers of tape and personally I was hoping for fibres, prints, something telling us when the tape was put there, etc.

But we really gleaned allot IMO. Overlapping layers of Duct tape to me show a purpose driven by anger. Adrenaline rising and out of control! And the unique 'Henkel' tape discovered still in place on Caylee's skull and matching that on a family gas can will be lethal in court IMO. It all adds up, and these two points are DYNOMITE for the Prosecution.

The multi layers of tape are so disquieting I think that is why they didn't want the public to know about it, plus that tape having been used on their personal gas can! xox



ETA: Didn't we originally hear that the tape went all the way around the back of her head? I could swear it was in a link stated by someone at the scene.

I also remember hearing that it was wrapped around her head several times. What will get to the jury aside from all of the layers of duct tape is that heart placed in the middle of the tape. It must have been right on her mouth.
I just can't imagine anyone having the gutts to place a heart on top of the duct tape. It is just so horrible. It's like saying "I love you" even though I'm going to murder you. I can't even explain what I think! It is a real slap iin the face.

I can't imagine there not being any of Casey's hair somewhere on that duct tape. Everytime I wrap a package with packing tape or use duct tape on something it ends up getting hair caught on it. Seems like it just reaches out and grabs that hair. Hair would be just as good as fingerprints. I would like to know how she kept her fingerprints off all of those layers of tape. I know mine get on the tape. Gloves would stick to the tape and then you have a real mess. Can't see anyone wearing gloves while handling duct tape.

 

[jjgram]

I also remember hearing that it was wrapped around her head several times. What will get to the jury aside from all of the layers of duct tape is that heart placed in the middle of the tape. It must have been right on her mouth.
I just can't imagine anyone having the gutts to place a heart on top of the duct tape. It is just so horrible. It's like saying "I love you" even though I'm going to murder you. I can't even explain what I think! It is a real slap iin the face.

I can't imagine there not being any of Casey's hair somewhere on that duct tape. Everytime I wrap a package with packing tape or use duct tape on something it ends up getting hair caught on it. Seems like it just reaches out and grabs that hair. Hair would be just as good as fingerprints. I would like to know how she kept her fingerprints off all of those layers of tape. I know mine get on the tape. Gloves would stick to the tape and then you have a real mess. Can't see anyone wearing gloves while handling duct tape.

:crazy: :waitasec:
Yeah... KC's hair
or ZFG the babysitter/kidnapper/

YOU know... I believe KC did it.
You Know ...I don't believe ZFG/ was ever a babysitter/
and for sure
You know....I don't believe ZFG took Caylee at the JBPark
You Know.....I don't believe ZFG put Duct Tape On Caylee and
left her in the woods by CA/GA/KC's home.

But evidence from that bag should show that there was NO ZFG
but
YES there is a KC !!!!

JMO

God Bless !
jjgram

*********Even when I take a break from this case and come
back
KC makes me soooooo Mad ! ! !
I pray that the EVIDENCE = JUSTICE/ with KC :behindbar FOREVER~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[seagull65]

I'm just not managing to grasp any logical reason for the multiple pieces of tape to have been placed on a live child in the manner that they apparently were.

If the purpose of the tape was to silence Caylee, one strip directly across her mouth would have achieved that, in which case I can't think why it would be necessary to place the tape under her jaw as well. It seems, from the information released, that it must have been at least partly under the jaw bone, otherwise once the flesh of the lips/cheeks/chin had gone then IMO the jaw would have dropped.

If the tape was used to cover her mouth and nose in order to suffocate her, it seems to be to an over-complicated and unnecessarily tricky and time consuming way of suffocating a small child. Caylee would have been struggling and fighting with both her arms and legs during this period of unrolling, tearing and applying multiple strips of duct tape, unless she was bound. If she was, that would mean binding, unrolling, tearing, applying, unrolling, tearing, applying.........then unbinding her limbs again when she was gone (because no evidence of binding materials were found). This seems nonsensical to me when a pillow or an adult hand could do the deed with much less effort!

If the pieces of tape were applied to both her mouth and nose - she couldn't then have been chloroformed.

If she was chloroformed first, there would have been no need to go through the multiple taping exercise - a pillow or hand would be much less bother!!

It's possible that the tape initially covered not only the chin, mouth and nose, but also the eyes. The eye sockets of a small child are incredibly close to the nasal bone and it's possible that the multi-strip covering of tape may have shrunk/contracted over time due to heat or water-shrinkage and that it originally covered a larger area.

Maybe KC wanted to cover up all of Caylee's face.

I know what you mean, Devon. I always thought the tape ruled out any scenario of chloroforming, and if the tape's only purpose was to suffocate, the perp could more easily just use a hand, a pillow, or a plastic bag for example to suffocate a child (the same reason I could never imagine anyone bothering to use chloroform to start with to murder someone, back in the beginning of this case.) Though of course the perp could have already prepared one or more pieces of tape, i.e., not having to try to cut or tear pieces of tape during the attack itself, but still.

So it seems like silencing her must have been a main reason for the tape, but like you say, then why the nose also and not just the mouth (maybe if the perpetrator was very intoxicated and only trying to silence her in a rage but not realizing they were obstructing the nose also.... or a perp who did primarily need to silence the child in order to be able to remove her from a location and/or to assault her, but who also was not going to let the child live so why not just cover the nose also.

Or maybe the tape was originally just over the mouth to silence her during an assault, then she died in some other way, by strangling or whatever, but the tape slipped up over the nose area during decomposition? Because the tape was only held over this general area basically by hair by the time of skeletonization, the position of the face could have changed a lot as it lost soft tissue. Her mouth might not have been fully closed at the time it was taped over, then maybe as the soft tissue disappeared, the upper jaw could have come to rest on the lower jaw with the tape seeming to cover the nose area. (?)

I never even thought of the possibility of the eyes, wow. Eyelashes seem to extend to the bottom edge of the eye socket when an eye is closed, children's eyelashes can be really long, too, so her eyes could have been taped shut if the tape extended even just to the bottom of the eye sockets. No mention of eyelashes found on the tape so far, though, right?

If the person was basically wanting to mask the child's face so as not to see it, or to prevent the child seeing them, I think they would tape over the eyes completely. Unless like you say the tape did originally cover them but shrank or slipped down later.

 

[seagull65]

Only other reasons I can think of for the tape, just brainstorming:
Maybe to cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
as we've all discussed many times I know, applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids from nose/mouth....though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. But if it was that kind of sentiment, I think the person would have used something other than duct tape, really, so..... Or if the person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death....
The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.

Then again, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound, since children are unfortunately easily overpowered by an adult assailant.

Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child would most likely not be able to peel the tape off. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.

Taping of Caylee's mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was. The heart sticker also.

All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.

Thought provoking thread, thank you guys.