Found Deceased AZ - Dr. Lila Ammouri & Susan Frazier, sisters travelled to Switzerland for assisted suicide, 2022

[AC's Grandma]

I believe before entering any country a traveler needs documentation showing that they they will be leaving the country?

I do believe that's true and that may be why the had booked a return flight as documentation of how long their stay was going to be.
I must agree with others that this situation doesn't sit right with me. Is it possible that due to overwhelming stress and depression from their jobs have caused this? I think it's definitely got to be considered knowing that one is a palliative care doctor, she obviously knows the best ways and has the knowledge of drugs that can cause death. JMO of course

 

[LeBlack]

I just wonder if they went for 'research' and something went wrong. If I were a family member, I'd need a money trail (were they robbed or "only" charged the usual fee?

 

[AC's Grandma]

I just wonder if they went for 'research' and something went wrong. If I were a family member, I'd need a money trail (were they robbed or "only" charged the usual fee?

I agree, there needs to be research through phone, email and bank records.

 

[neesaki]

I do believe that's true and that may be why the had booked a return flight as documentation of how long their stay was going to be.
I must agree with others that this situation doesn't sit right with me. Is it possible that due to overwhelming stress and depression from their jobs have caused this? I think it's definitely got to be considered knowing that one is a palliative care doctor, she obviously knows the best ways and has the knowledge of drugs that can cause death. JMO of course

But it seems they could have changed jobs at any point they chose. This whole thing is so off to me. How could two healthy relatively young sisters choose to end their lives together. I just don’t get it at all.

 

[al66pine]

Round Trip Tickets?

I believe before entering any country a traveler needs documentation showing that they they will be leaving the country?

@JerseyGirl Thanks for your post. Briefly, by themselves, the return air tickets do not peg my hinky meter.

Not so briefly (& gen'ly re EU/Schengen* travel).
Yes, documentation of intent to leave the country without overstaying the period for which no visa is required. A paid airline ticket back to US, which is dated less than 90 days from entry to that country, indicates that intent. So when entering Switzerland or other Schengen Area country,* a tourist w US passport has the plane tix to exit that country, if asked.

Otherwise a tourist may be required to obtain a visa before leaving the US, by applying to an embassy/consulate, which issues these visas. <--- iiuc, but oversimplified.

For someone planning a Pegasos Voluntary Assisted Death, obtaining a visa would entail more paperwork, more time, and more $$$ for an unneeded, longer stay.
If Dr. Ammouri and Ms Frazier had made VAD arrangements, then it seems reasonable they still would have bought airline tix for return to US even knowing they would not use the tix.

ETA: Attn, Rick Steves, in c/o PBS
Pls clarify or correct as needed. Same for sleuthers.
_______________________
* "Travelling around the Schengen Area"
^Travelling around the Schengen Area – Travel guide at Wikivoyage

"Do US Citizens Need an EU visa to enter Europe?
Citizens of the United States with a valid US passport can travel to 26 European member countries of the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days without having to apply or obtain a Schengen visa for short-term tourism or a business trip." bbm
^ Americans Traveling to Europe – EU Visa Requirements for US Citizens.

FWIW on multiple trips to Europe as a US citizen, when at border crossings in a series of countries on each trip, I've been required to show passport plus documentation (like air tix) of plans to leave the country I'm about to enter. Just ime. YMMV.

 

[neesaki]

Here’s a newer article , still not a lot of info. The older sister put her home in a family trust in January.

Text that friend of doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss suicide clinic | Daily Mail Online

 

[Sarahlou]

But it seems they could have changed jobs at any point they chose. This whole thing is so off to me. How could two healthy relatively young sisters choose to end their lives together. I just don’t get it at all.

Maybe they weren't in good health. Maybe one had received some bad news recently. I know their brother said they were healthy but he also had no idea they were doing this, so they might have kept other things from him.

 

[al66pine]

Healthy?

.... This whole thing is so off to me. How could two healthy relatively young sisters choose to end their lives together...

@neesaki sbm Yes, agreeing w ^: they were both relatively young, but re the ^ conclusion that they were healthy?
Not saying they were or were not healthy, I dunno. Personally not ready to make a judgment based on a few snapshots or factual info I've seen so far, which is virtually none. my2ct

ETA: Sad, sad, sad regardless. For them, their families, their communities.

 

[neesaki]

Healthy?
@neesaki sbm Yes, agreeing w ^: they were both relatively young, but re the ^ conclusion that they were healthy?
Not saying they were or were not healthy, I dunno. Personally not ready to make a judgment based on a few snapshots or factual info I've seen so far, which is virtually none. my2ct

ETA: Sad, sad, sad regardless. For them, their families, their communities.

@al66pine Yes, very possible one or both had some health issues that may have played a part in their decision. Or maybe they were so close, and one went along with the other? As strange as it seems, if they each had no one else, maybe they felt that all they had was each other. I was never close to my siblings, but I realize that others are.

I did see that the younger sister had been married previously. Apparently divorced now as he now lives in another state.

ETA: Apologies for not linking to that last tidbit of info, but I don’t believe it’s an allowable link.

 

[FL Wannabe]

Maybe I missed something. When one uses a VAD clinic I presume some sort of arrangement is made for the deceased remains. What arrangement a were made for these sisters? It reads as if they were stored at the clinic?!?! Wouldn't one normally either cremate or embalming and transport the body home for burial? Totally missed any mention of the plans for these sisters.

 

[LeBlack]

IDK the laws after death regarding HIPPA, if one received bad news regarding health, it's possible the other tested for the same condition. If this is the case and they did not want to face whatever it was, you would think they could leave the brother (and maybe cousins) a letter. This is so odd.

 

[AC's Grandma]

Maybe I missed something. When one uses a VAD clinic I presume some sort of arrangement is made for the deceased remains. What arrangement a were made for these sisters? It reads as if they were stored at the clinic?!?! Wouldn't one normally either cremate or embalming and transport the body home for burial? Totally missed any mention of the plans for these sisters.

I read the information on their website their process of how things are handled and if you aren't able to have a person known to you to identify your body after the death they can arrange that for you through another company. All the info, which is very interesting as I read through the sites, is there and so easily explained in full.
Welcome to Pegasos – Pegasos Swiss Association (pegasos-association.com)

This is a company that works with this VAD to help you get everything in place to have no issues.
Exit International

 

[al66pine]

An update* today lends weight to the theory that the sisters planned this and there was no abduction, no foul play.

"EXCLUSIVE: Doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss suicide clinic were scheduled to end their lives in August 2021 but pandemic delayed their trip: Paid facility $11,000 because they feared they'd botch their killings at home in Arizona"
The sisters had spoken with Exit International, one of the largest suicide clinics in Switzerland, back in October 2020 to learn how they could kill themselves
After being warned of the dangers of committing suicide in the US, the sisters opted to pay $11,000 to travel to Basel, Switzerland, to die
They chose the Pegasos Swiss Association, which does not require patients to be terminally ill or suffering from a life-limiting illness
The clinic also allowed the sisters to die together, something they were adamant about when they reached out to the Swiss clinics
Less than two weeks before their trip, Ammouri had put her $1 million Arizona home in an intrafamily trust
It allows the home to be transferred to family without the conventional legal process of proving they're the heirs to the property." bbm

_______________________
* Doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss clinic looked into assisted suicide in 2019 | Daily Mail Online

 

[Elana619]

An update* today lends weight to the theory that the sisters planned this and there was no abduction, no foul play.

"EXCLUSIVE: Doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss suicide clinic were scheduled to end their lives in August 2021 but pandemic delayed their trip: Paid facility $11,000 because they feared they'd botch their killings at home in Arizona"
The sisters had spoken with Exit International, one of the largest suicide clinics in Switzerland, back in October 2020 to learn how they could kill themselves
After being warned of the dangers of committing suicide in the US, the sisters opted to pay $11,000 to travel to Basel, Switzerland, to die
They chose the Pegasos Swiss Association, which does not require patients to be terminally ill or suffering from a life-limiting illness
The clinic also allowed the sisters to die together, something they were adamant about when they reached out to the Swiss clinics
Less than two weeks before their trip, Ammouri had put her $1 million Arizona home in an intrafamily trust
It allows the home to be transferred to family without the conventional legal process of proving they're the heirs to the property." bbm

_______________________
* Doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss clinic looked into assisted suicide in 2019 | Daily Mail Online

Sounds like they did what they could to ensure their was not a financial mess after they died. I have seen people take their lives and also counseled individuals who are suicidal and have a history of attempts. I’ve learned not to judge peoples pain and why they want to die. It makes us look at our own mortality as much as being by someone’s bed side as they die naturally. It sounds like they ended their lives on their terms and with dignity.

 

[Cherith.Barbieri]

One sister is a Palliative Care Doctor and the other a nurse.

The brother claims they were both healthy and happy.

I wonder if there was any mental illness.

I think they are going to have trouble accessing their digital devices.

This is a very strange story and TBH hard to wrap my head around. On the surface it makes no sense.

What else was going on that could have provoked this?

Bizarre.

Agreed that this is a strange case.
Was there any past trauma that neither could overcome nor live with ?
How close were they to the sibling ?
Whatever happened it's so sad.

 

[housewife]

Sounds like they did what they could to ensure their was not a financial mess after they died. I have seen people take their lives and also counseled individuals who are suicidal and have a history of attempts. I’ve learned not to judge peoples pain and why they want to die. It makes us look at our own mortality as much as being by someone’s bed side as they die naturally. It sounds like they ended their lives on their terms and with dignity.

Well said.

 

[housewife]

I gotta say, I don’t like the way their brother speaks about his sisters. He speaks as if the only person affected is HIM. “I want answers”.

No, dude. You don’t deserve answers. Those women don’t owe you anything. And you can tell the sisters knew he would be concerned about his inheritance so they preplanned their financials.

For the sisters, I see a lot of sadness in their lives. Parents divorce, kids separated by gender. Dad is a doctor, probably high expectations for the kids. First child with an MD is expected to take on the responsibility of aging parents, regardless of their feelings towards them.
Slogging through years of stressful education and training to become a doctor who sees endless pain and suffering at their job every day.
No spouses (one ex), no boyfriends, and no friends to ring the alarm they were gone in the first place.
If a coworker is the only person to care that you are missing…

 

[housewife]

Also, the way the brother spoke about convos with his sisters: “If you say the wrong thing, watch out!”

um, why does he have to choose his words so carefully in the first place? Because he speaks so respectfully to them? Lol

 

[Satchie]

The fact that Lila was a palliative care doctor jumps out, for me.

I wonder when she chose to specialize in that field. Was there perhaps a preoccupation with death and dying that lead to working in that field?

Also, my understanding from the debate here in Canada, is that most palliative care doctors are opposed to assisted suicide. They believe a natural end to life is not to be feared.

Another pecularity to me, is that they had planned it so long in advance, and yet the intervening years had done nothing to change their minds.

That tells me this wasn't so much about being in intense emotional pain, but possibly chronic depression.

I recall reading about a man who had made up his mind when he was young, that he would not grow old. He planned his suicide years in advance, and shared his plans with his wife, and she didn't try to persuade him out of it, because he was strongly the dominant one in the relationship. However, he was 67, not 52, and he didn't suggest she go with him.

ETA, if the pair had decided to do this 2 years ago, Lila would have been around 50. Some people have strongly negative feelings about turning 50.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

60 year old brother Cal said, "I'm an only child now."

per Mar 26 Doctor and nurse sisters who died at Swiss clinic looked into assisted suicide in 2019 | Daily Mail Online