AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[Charlot123]

I want to hear and or view any recordings made by LE of their interactions with Mr Kelly.

Did they somehow cause him to be confused by the manner of their questioning? Did their questioning affect his responses or his memory of the events leading up to the death of C-B? JMO.

There are many types of dementing illnesses. In some, paranoia would be the first symptom. Hallucinations, the second one. I would ask about the gait and vestibular symptoms.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

There are many types of dementing illnesses. In some, paranoia would be the first symptom. Hallucinations, the second one. I would ask about the gait and vestibular symptoms.

Oh. So you feel that Mr Kelly may have some debilitating issue that affected his actions?

I haven't seen anything that would suggest this is true. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

Oh. So you feel that Mr Kelly may have some debilitating issue that affected his actions?

I haven't seen anything that would suggest this is true. JMO.

When I read that his story changed constantly, and his age, this is what I think of, yes. We don't know much about him yet.

 

[Soulmagent]

Sorry but I don't understand your post. Who is "he" in your post? What fraud?

If George Alan Kelly , has the answer to the question , his lies got him in a snare. In relation to the "they". Your post presents a great reveal IMO about ''They.''

 

[Soulmagent]

There are many types of dementing illnesses. In some, paranoia would be the first symptom. Hallucinations, the second one. I would ask about the gait and vestibular symptoms.

I love people who are aged into the 60's and 70's. I do believe the major player in the case is his age. If Bruse willis can die hard ,anyone can.
73 ,74, 75 ? I am trying to live until 101 on the low end.His reported age is all over the place but he may be feeling a sorta way because he knows death is knocking and that fear might be his driving force and why Wanda ,in his mind warranted the extreme response.
So anyway ,as always, Moo. IMO and all that.

 

[Soulmagent]

Oh. So you feel that Mr Kelly may have some debilitating issue that affected his actions?

I haven't seen anything that would suggest this is true. JMO.

There were idea's deleted , stuff happened ,things were said. Hope I dont get fired for this.

 

[FLmom777]

This is why, given his age, they need to do neurocognitive evaluation to understand how much he remembers and how good his reasoning is. MOO.

He is younger than my husband. It is rather insulting to assume cognitive issues.

 

[NeverPersonal]

I'm on page 3 of this thread. Hopefully things become more clear for those standing up for Mr. George.

I don't understand the SYG POV (I understand the SYG law but it does not apply here).

There were ZERO guns found. What was found? A dead guy, shot in the back, who was equipped with a radio and a Mexican voter card that he was identified by, who was trying to help get people to a better life. Kelly has no right to become judge, jury, and executioner.

<modsnip>

The DEFENSE attorney is bringing up drug trafficking to get that into people's heads, regarding "selling testimonies". Nobody else is bringing up the cartel or drug trafficking.

Also, poor Gabriel was found 150 yards (400 something feet) from Kelly's residence. He wasn't even on Kelly's property. He was shot in the back. I don't get it.

**my opinions**

 

[NeverPersonal]

He is younger than my husband. It is rather insulting to assume cognitive issues.

He is 75. It's reasonable to want to test his cognitive abilities. Him being younger than your husband does not make this less reasonable imo.

 

[NeverPersonal]

He has lived there for a long time, if I recall correctly. Decades. I can’t know of course, but I am guessing this isn’t an uncommon occurrence for him; to have many illegal border crossings happen on his property. Has it been worse lately, more aggressive border crossers? Again, I can’t know. I wasn’t there. But mr Kelly has no criminal record, so he has not fired shots before, As far as I know. I will take him at his words that he felt threatened and that this time was diferent for some reason.

we weren’t there, we can’t know his experience.

i laughed a bit at this- border crossers are not in the business of "being aggressive".
they want to be undetected and move quickly. acting aggressively does not help them reach their goal of "the American dream" (which doesn't exist but that's neither here nor there). imo. again... Kelly says they all had AK-47s yet not one gun was found on his property, or in the 150 yards to the man he killed, or next to the man he killed.

 

[NeverPersonal]

@mickey2942 the Stand Your Ground law doesn't cover if someone merely walked on the edge(s) of your property getting to their next location, or if you shoot them and their body is 150 yards+ away from your home. oh, and they didn't have the gun you said they had...

 

[NeverPersonal]

I suggested in an earlier post that it's possible one of the armed migrants accidentally fired the shot that struck the victim after Mr Kelly fired warning shots.

One of the group may have been directly behind C-B armed with a rifle, was startled by Mr Kelly's gunfire then stumbled with his finger on the trigger causing an accidental discharge with the gun being low and angled upward.

That may account for the the entry wound being low in the back and the exit wound being high in the chest. JMO.

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

both people with Gabriel were not armed, and neither was Gabriel. Nah. moo.

 

[RasBan]

Having lived in a border area, LE's advice to me was to present as someone who is not a victim.

The border is long, and groups that cross have options to travel in different areas.

Upthread, a poster states that their family leaves out water jugs for unknown persons in the area.

I was advised to have loud dogs and motion sensor lighting. Also range time for accuracy.

LE explained that the message sent to groups traveling near your home was passed to other groups.

As humans, we tend to accept the path of least resistance.

That's water jugs.

Just my lived experience.

Thank you for sharing your experience I can understand why your advice above would be the best way to ensure you don't become a victim because I also wouldn't want to make it so easy that my property became the #1 route for the cartel. I just cannot imagine living somewhere where you constantly have to be on alert & hyper vigilant but I'm also a scaredy cat & know these areas wouldn't be for me.

I hope my previous post didn't make it sound like I was critical of Mr Kelly's choice to protect himself, it was more about me trying to understand what it must be like for people living on the border & realizing that I could never live this way.

 

[NuttMegg]

He is 75. It's reasonable to want to test his cognitive abilities. Him being younger than your husband does not make this less reasonable imo.

His atty won't touch that one with a 10 ft pole. It is more productive, given the media help pouring in, to drudge up scary images of groups of rival cartel smugglers aggressively aiming their war weapons at each other, shooting each other and shooting at Kelly and his wife while they lunch on his patio. So Kelly has to "return fire" in self defense in the middle of the day.

I don't mean to mock your reasonable suggestions to test Kelly, but its a 2 edged sword...is he completely out of it cognitively to the point he allegedly shoots a person in the back basically from one goal zone to another, 100 yds away, well then he spends his golden years in a nice facility under calming medications and soothing music.

Or the alternative, as someone mentioned...a Bruce Willis scenario, entities with war weapons, what was he to do except fire over the din.

Heck, in this mishmash of mishmemories we don't even know where the horse was. Galloping by the patio in terror, in the corral or in the barn.

I think Kelly just lost it, fired into a large group of people crossing his property 100-150 yards away. Maybe he thought he was firing above their heads, maybe he has shaky hands. Maybe he is just furious at the whole shebang, mid 70s and having to sell that dream property for a relative pittance. (Realtor listing posted here on the thread yesterday). It is a gorgeous place, just seeing the ocotillo in his yard brings back so many texas Chihuahuan desert memories for me.

Read his book to verify his mindset, this is no big mystery, imo. He will get off, no jury will convict the poor guy being attacked by multiple drug cartels while eating lunch.

Imo.

 

[NuttMegg]

How a dead man near the Arizona border could become a political powder keg

We know little about why Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly is facing charges of murdering a Mexican national, but the story could have consequences.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Lilibet]

I learned some interesting things about GK in this legal document. I hadn’t realized that he had purchased this property in 2002 with the intention of turning it into a resort. This passage from an appeal in 2013 of an earlier ruling regarding his contract with Kino Springs Golf and Ranch explains his background and intent. He had owned and operated an elite eco-resort in Montana during the 1980’s and 90’s and intended to do the same sort of thing with this property in AZ. The home he and his wife lived in was basically a model home, similar to five “lodge homes” that would be built and sold. The resort would offer horseback riding, hiking and astronomy. In the appeal, a new trial was granted, and I haven’t found any information on how that turned out. But obviously, the resort never happened, and the property is currently for sale. He has attempted to sell the property since at least 2018 at fluctuating prices, as high as $2,700,000. The current asking price is $1,750,000.

I can only imagine how frustrating it has been never to have achieved his goal of building this resort and gaining a substantial income from it. Here he is, stuck living in a desolate area at his age, “overrun” with illegal immigrants, “land rich and cash poor” as he put it. Does he blame them for his inability to sell the property? Who knows? But it certainly seems possible IMO. The book he wrote would indicate that it did. But FWIW this is all just conjecture until or if there is a trial.

ETA: JMO I still think that there was no justification for shooting anyone in the back, but I think his mindset will be a big factor in whether he is acquitted. There is obviously a lot of sympathy for him in those parts.

Judge OK's Arizona rancher trial in Mexican migrant killing

A judge has ruled that an Arizona rancher accused of shooting at a group of migrants on his property and killing a man will face trial on second-degree murder and aggravated assault charges.

apnews.com

Link to real estate listing…

Vermilion Mountain Ranch, Land for Sale in Arizona, #135503 : LANDFLIP

Vermilion Mountain Ranch. View this land for sale with 169 acres by Nogales in Santa Cruz County, Arizona 85621. Contact Robert Mills of First United Realty to learn more about this land. LANDFLIP #135503

www.landflip.com

Kelly v. Kino Springs Golf, L.L.C., 2 CA-CV 2012-0072 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Kelly v. Kino Springs Golf, L.L.C., 2 CA-CV 2012-0072, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

¶3 After establishing and running an "eco resort" in Montana for over a decade, the Kellys moved to Arizona in search of other development opportunities. In 2002, they acquired nearly 170 acres of land in Santa Cruz County through a land swap agreement with Kino, which was an adjacent landowner. The agreement required Kino "to reasonably cooperate with" the Kellys "in obtaining any appropriate zoning, abandonment, amendments to CC&Rs and replatting" for the Kellys' new planned resort. The agreement also called for Kino to "expeditiously" supply the Kellys' property with an electrical power line. The evidence suggested, however, that Kino failed to cooperate in reconfiguring the Kellys' land, and Kino did not provide a power line to the property until 2008.

¶4 The Kellys filed a complaint that year for breach of contract seeking, inter alia, consequential damages in the form of expenses and lost profits. The Kellys' development plans had included building and operating a resort called Vermilion Mountain Ranch, as well as constructing and selling five "lodge homes" on their property. They built one of these lodge homes in 2008, after power became available. Alan Kelly and a general contractor who served as a consultant on the project, Hector Ruvalcaba, testified it cost approximately $400,000 to construct the lodge home, which was consistent with Alan's ledger of expenses admitted as an exhibit. A real estate broker, Lois Cooper, testified that the value of the lodge homes in 2005 would have been $660,000 each. Alan thus testified the lost profits from the five lodge homes were at least $750,000.

¶5 In addition to seeking lost profits from these sales, the Kellys sought to recover their actual expenses incurred in developing the lodge home and in making other improvements that would not have been made unless the new resort could have been built as planned. According to Alan's testimony, these costs totaled $90,000, and they included the costs for water lines, a water well, a barn, corrals, and fencing.

¶6 With respect to the resort, Alan provided much of the testimony related to its lost profits based on his own expertise and past experiences. For nearly fifteen years, during the 1980s and 1990s, the Kellys had owned and operated a luxury resort in Montana called Eagle's Nest Lodge. Before starting this business, Alan had received a bachelor's degree in biology and had worked as a fishery biologist and project leader with the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. The Montana resort he operated with Wanda catered to an "exclusive clientele" and offered its guests the chance to fish along the Bighorn River, which Alan described as "the number one trout stream in the world." The resort also provided guests with opportunities to see the natural habitat, tribal lands, and wildlife in the area.

¶7 For twelve years during this same period of time, Alan also served in a partnership with a company known as Orvis. In this capacity, he evaluated the accommodations, activities, and dining offered by other luxury resorts in various states and countries for the purpose of providing Orvis's endorsement. He also developed the criteria for making such evaluations.

¶8 In regard to the Arizona resort, the Kellys apparently planned on funding it themselves, and Alan estimated his initial costs to construct the resort would be $2,405,000. He testified the resort would offer its clients horseback riding, hiking, and astronomy. Given his past experiences, Alan believed his planned ranch would attract similar clients as his Montana lodge because such clients primarily desire a new experience in different surroundings, and the "high-desert country" offered a unique habitat. Alan testified that he could have charged $1,000 per night for each guest, half of which would have been profit. He planned for the resort to accommodate up to twenty-four guests and to operate five days per week for six months of the year. Assuming varying occupancy rates between twenty-five and one-hundred percent between the years 2004 and 2007, Alan thus calculated his operating profits at $3,240,000, for a total of $835,000 in net profits that were never realized from the resort.

 

[NuttMegg]

Yes, they testified that Kelly came after them through the brush, which could fit with the nature of the fatal wound, IMO.

Iirc about 3 hours passed from his first call, until LE was alerted to the killing. He could have been in a lot of places other than his porch or patio.

 

[Lilibet]

How a dead man near the Arizona border could become a political powder keg

We know little about why Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly is facing charges of murdering a Mexican national, but the story could have consequences.

www.azcentral.com

This editorial wouldn’t open for me, but I found it reprinted here…

How a dead man near the Arizona border could become a political powder keg

We know little about why Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly is facing charges of murdering a Mexican national, but the story could have consequences.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[NuttMegg]

I learned some interesting things about GK in this legal document. I hadn’t realized that he had purchased this property in 2002 with the intention of turning it into a resort. This passage from an appeal in 2013 of an earlier ruling regarding his contract with Kino Springs Golf and Ranch explains his background and intent. He had owned and operated an elite eco-resort in Montana during the 1980’s and 90’s and intended to do the same sort of thing with this property in AZ. The home he and his wife lived in was basically a model home, similar to five “lodge homes” that would be built and sold. The resort would offer horseback riding, hiking and astronomy. In the appeal, a new trial was granted, and I haven’t found any information on how that turned out. But obviously, the resort never happened, and the property is currently for sale. He has attempted to sell the property since at least 2018, at fluctuating prices, as high as $2,700,000. The current asking price is $1,750,000.

I can only imagine how frustrating it has been never to have achieved his goal of building this resort and gaining a substantial income from it. Here he is, stuck living in a desolate area at his age, “overrun” with illegal immigrants, “land rich and cash poor” as he put it. Does he blame them for his inability to sell the property? Who knows? But it certainly seems possible IMO. The book he wrote would indicate that it did. But FWIW this is all just conjecture until or if there is a trial. JMO

Judge OK's Arizona rancher trial in Mexican migrant killing

A judge has ruled that an Arizona rancher accused of shooting at a group of migrants on his property and killing a man will face trial on second-degree murder and aggravated assault charges.

apnews.com

Link to real estate listing…

Vermilion Mountain Ranch, Land for Sale in Arizona, #135503 : LANDFLIP

Vermilion Mountain Ranch. View this land for sale with 169 acres by Nogales in Santa Cruz County, Arizona 85621. Contact Robert Mills of First United Realty to learn more about this land. LANDFLIP #135503

www.landflip.com

Kelly v. Kino Springs Golf, L.L.C., 2 CA-CV 2012-0072 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Kelly v. Kino Springs Golf, L.L.C., 2 CA-CV 2012-0072, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

¶3 After establishing and running an "eco resort" in Montana for over a decade, the Kellys moved to Arizona in search of other development opportunities. In 2002, they acquired nearly 170 acres of land in Santa Cruz County through a land swap agreement with Kino, which was an adjacent landowner. The agreement required Kino "to reasonably cooperate with" the Kellys "in obtaining any appropriate zoning, abandonment, amendments to CC&Rs and replatting" for the Kellys' new planned resort. The agreement also called for Kino to "expeditiously" supply the Kellys' property with an electrical power line. The evidence suggested, however, that Kino failed to cooperate in reconfiguring the Kellys' land, and Kino did not provide a power line to the property until 2008.

¶4 The Kellys filed a complaint that year for breach of contract seeking, inter alia, consequential damages in the form of expenses and lost profits. The Kellys' development plans had included building and operating a resort called Vermilion Mountain Ranch, as well as constructing and selling five "lodge homes" on their property. They built one of these lodge homes in 2008, after power became available. Alan Kelly and a general contractor who served as a consultant on the project, Hector Ruvalcaba, testified it cost approximately $400,000 to construct the lodge home, which was consistent with Alan's ledger of expenses admitted as an exhibit. A real estate broker, Lois Cooper, testified that the value of the lodge homes in 2005 would have been $660,000 each. Alan thus testified the lost profits from the five lodge homes were at least $750,000.

¶5 In addition to seeking lost profits from these sales, the Kellys sought to recover their actual expenses incurred in developing the lodge home and in making other improvements that would not have been made unless the new resort could have been built as planned. According to Alan's testimony, these costs totaled $90,000, and they included the costs for water lines, a water well, a barn, corrals, and fencing.

¶6 With respect to the resort, Alan provided much of the testimony related to its lost profits based on his own expertise and past experiences. For nearly fifteen years, during the 1980s and 1990s, the Kellys had owned and operated a luxury resort in Montana called Eagle's Nest Lodge. Before starting this business, Alan had received a bachelor's degree in biology and had worked as a fishery biologist and project leader with the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. The Montana resort he operated with Wanda catered to an "exclusive clientele" and offered its guests the chance to fish along the Bighorn River, which Alan described as "the number one trout stream in the world." The resort also provided guests with opportunities to see the natural habitat, tribal lands, and wildlife in the area.

¶7 For twelve years during this same period of time, Alan also served in a partnership with a company known as Orvis. In this capacity, he evaluated the accommodations, activities, and dining offered by other luxury resorts in various states and countries for the purpose of providing Orvis's endorsement. He also developed the criteria for making such evaluations.

¶8 In regard to the Arizona resort, the Kellys apparently planned on funding it themselves, and Alan estimated his initial costs to construct the resort would be $2,405,000. He testified the resort would offer its clients horseback riding, hiking, and astronomy. Given his past experiences, Alan believed his planned ranch would attract similar clients as his Montana lodge because such clients primarily desire a new experience in different surroundings, and the "high-desert country" offered a unique habitat. Alan testified that he could have charged $1,000 per night for each guest, half of which would have been profit. He planned for the resort to accommodate up to twenty-four guests and to operate five days per week for six months of the year. Assuming varying occupancy rates between twenty-five and one-hundred percent between the years 2004 and 2007, Alan thus calculated his operating profits at $3,240,000, for a total of $835,000 in net profits that were never realized from the resort.

Thanks for posting that. It clarifies what I have had a hunch about, re his possible growing frustration with poorly thought out major investment. I feel somewhat more empathetic with him, learning of his solid naturalist background. But Montana is not the extreme south of Arizona, and it wasn't in 2002 either, regarding risks along the border.

Even locating adjacent to a town, he couldn't have realistically expected that to protect and help in development of his property. His plans were grandiose and unrealistic, Up to 24 guests, five days a week for six months of the year. Think of the staff required just to feed and clean for all those people, in addition to the professional staff required to provide knowledge and excursions for the three activities he was offering. Vehicles, etc. And astronomy-related installations. Then factor in the perimeter patrol and defenses to protect his land, investments, and his clients. His estimate of profit is laughable.

Imo

 

[WingsOverTX]

I'm on page 3 of this thread. Hopefully things become more clear for those standing up for Mr. George.

I don't understand the SYG POV (I understand the SYG law but it does not apply here).

There were ZERO guns found. What was found? A dead guy, shot in the back, who was equipped with a radio and a Mexican voter card that he was identified by, who was trying to help get people to a better life. Kelly has no right to become judge, jury, and executioner. <modsnip>

The DEFENSE attorney is bringing up drug trafficking to get that into people's heads, regarding "selling testimonies". Nobody else is bringing up the cartel or drug trafficking.

Also, poor Gabriel was found 150 yards (400 something feet) from Kelly's residence. He wasn't even on Kelly's property. He was shot in the back. I don't get it.

**my opinions**

While sympathy for the illegal immigrant is laudable, I'm not seeing the connection here unless it is proven that this was such an immigrant group. So far, we don't know, do we?

An area known for cartel activity & drug running in AZ is under discussion here. We need more facts before we can understand this particular incursion on this man's property.

And it was an incursion aka trespass. B-C's body was found on GK's acreage. Either B-C was on the property or moved there after death, GK did not go into the desert off his property seeking to kill a non-citizen from what we know so far.

FACTS are so important here. The trial won't be about feelings but about the facts surrounding this incident that leaves an elderly man facing a 2nd degree murder charge & the death of a trespasser from Mexico.

No matter where our sympathies lie, this case should be decided on the basis of evidence gathered through truth seeking to the degree facts can be found.

Assumptions are not evidence.

JMHO