AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #18

[emeraldeyes85]

Hmm, I'm not finding a legal distinction in AZ between kidnapping and abduction.

Heres a page from an AZ atty's website about kidnapping statute, etc. (no mention of separate abduction statutes):

http://www.palmisanoazlaw.com/arizona-kidnapping-and-abduction-laws-and-charges

Because people dont get charged with abduction, it is always referred to as the more general term 'kidnapping,'

But there is a difference when the LE use one of those terms during their investigations, the differences have been noted already in some posts before this one.

 

[GutFeeling!]

I'm reading through the state laws here now, and don't see anything separate for abduction still.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/01304.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

Just for info, here is the full kidnapping section:

That is the same as here. I actually asked the police once when they mentioned an abduction and wrote out the difference - I think in the big picture the penalties are different. The differences are very minor. I just can't remember it all now.

It is kind of like the police using words like wreck and accident - here they very rarely use accident, always wreck, cause accidents can be prevented.

I have never seen a parent taking a child classified as a kidnapping from memory though - always an abduction.

 

[Pensfan]

On the last thread, Shelby2 posted:
Here is some information on AZ CPS confidentiality
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/8/00807.htm


In response to Shelby2's post:
When the police are called for a domestic dispute and there are children in the home, CPS is always contacted in my state (not sure about AZ).

CPS may not have violated their confidentiality rules. The police may have called CPS to the Celis residence and this is how the police knew CPS had been there several times.

In the press conference, it was released that there were calls (plural) to that residence in the past. The last call was in December. In the last thread, I posted the link for this statement that came from the last press conference.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[Gardenlady]

Because people dont get charged with abduction, it is always referred to as the more general term 'kidnapping,'

But there is a difference when the LE use one of those terms during their investigations, the differences have been noted already in some posts before this one.

So there is a specific use of the word "abduction" by police that is unique to them, and separate from any legal use of the word?

 

[GutFeeling!]

So there is a specific use of the word "abduction" by police that is unique to them, and separate from any legal use of the word?

There is here

 

[Gardenlady]

There is here

Gahhhh... I hate jargon lol. :banghead:

 

[pieper4]

Not sure if this has been posted, and it is a little outdated (2009), but an interesting read nonetheless (IMO) : http://www.icmec.org/missingkids/servlet/NewsEventServlet?LanguageCountry=en_X1&PageId=4108

 

[Prof]

IMO a kidnapping would first involve an abduction. A kidnapping is one form of abduction. Another form would be a parental abduction. A kidnapping is not called a kidnapping until the abductor makes some kind of demand. Until then, a kidnapping is called an abduction. JMO

IMO LE cannot call this a kidnapping until someone has made some kind of demand, be it for custody or money, or revenge.

That is why this case is under the larger umbrella of abduction...IMO

LE has clearly stated in every presser that they are investigating both internal and external possibilities for Isa's dissappearance.

 

[prima.facie]

It was my understanding that a kidnapping involved the napper asking for ransom while an abduction is not...but doesnt that depened upon jurisdiction too?


ETA...in all my criminal law classes, we never got into this topic in depth....so maybe im off in left field somewhere....and im not near any of my law books...

 

[liz b.]

On the last thread, Shelby2 posted:
Here is some information on AZ CPS confidentiality
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/8/00807.htm


In response to Shelby2's post:
When the police are called for a domestic dispute and there are children in the home, CPS is always contacted in my state (not sure about AZ).

CPS may not have violated their confidentiality rules. The police may have called CPS to the Celis residence and this is how the police knew CPS had been there several times.

In the press conference, it was released that there were calls (plural) to that residence in the past. The last call was in December. In the last thread, I posted the link for this statement that came from the last press conference.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

TY for posting, knew I heard plural "calls"... JMO

 

[mamamia54]

IMO a kidnapping would first involve an abduction. A kidnapping is one form of abduction. Another form would be a parental abduction. A kidnapping is not called a kidnapping until the abductor makes some kind of demand. Until then, a kidnapping is called an abduction. JMO

OY, this gets very confusing.

 

[Eileen730]

IMO a kidnapping would first involve an abduction. A kidnapping is one form of abduction. Another form would be a parental abduction. A kidnapping is not called a kidnapping until the abductor makes some kind of demand. Until then, a kidnapping is called an abduction. JMO

Isnt Kidnapping when they cross state lines or if money is demanded?

 

[white rabbit]

OY, this gets very confusing.

lol. i'm with ya, mamamia. i'm still two threads back trying to figure out what HTH and doper's holiday are.

duh.

 

[Prof]

I think every state has different kidnapping laws, except when it comes to parental abduction.

If the abduction is taken across state lines, then it is a Federal matter, and yes I do believe the FBI calls that kidnapping, Eileen.

 

[mamamia54]

lol. i'm with ya, mamamia. i'm still two threads back trying to figure out what HTH and doper's holiday are.

duh.

HTH I wasn't certain of but doper's holiday is 420 lol.

 

[Eileen730]

Difference between kidnapping and abduction,
Kidnapping:The substantial interference with another person's liberty without consent or legally authority.

Abduction:the criminal act of capturing and carrying away by force a family member; if a man's wife is abducted it is a crime against the family relationship and against the wife.

1. Kidnapping from lawful guardianship is committed only in respect of a male under 16 years of age or a female minor under 18 years of age; As far as abduction is concerned, you can abduct any person of any age.
2. In kidnapping, the minor is just taken away. Force need not be use. However, in the case of abduction, force, compulsion, or deceitful means are used.
3. The consent of the victim is immaterial in kidnapping. In the case of abduction, the intention of the offender is not relevant.
4. The kidnapped person must be removed from the care of the lawful guardian. A child without a guardian cannot be kidnapped. Abduction has reference exclusively to the person abducted.
5. Kidnapping is a substantive offence; Abduction by itself is not a substantive offence.
Sources: http://india.smetoolkit.org/india/e...-difference-between-kidnapping-and-abduction-

 

[emeraldeyes85]

So there is a specific use of the word "abduction" by police that is unique to them, and separate from any legal use of the word?

Yes, very much so. In cop speak an abduction is not the same as a kidnapping. But for purposes of being charged they both would fall under the general term of kidnapping.

 

[pieper4]

HTH I wasn't certain of but doper's holiday is 420 lol.

HTH is Hope That Helps/-ed

 

[Gardenlady]

Yep 4/20 is a pot smoking "holiday" of sorts. Nothing bad happens, just... People toke up, lol. There have been gatherings, legalization meet ups, etc, on the date, but really there's nothing nefarious about it.

IMO, there's probably nothing LESS dangerous than pot smokers

 

[gliving]

TY for posting, knew I heard plural "calls"... JMO

Plural TPD calls to the home, not plural CPS calls. Right? Not that it matters but I'm a stickler for facts.

"KGUN9 News found records showing TPD also visited the Celis family address multiple times in recent years.

“There have been calls to the residence previously,” Hawke commented. “I can't say specifically that it was the Celis family that lived there when those calls were made. But that's not necessarily unusual.”"

IIRC correctly, there was only one previous CPS call to the home this past December and it was verified by LE that it did not concern Isabel.