Found Deceased AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 *Arrest* #26

[Gunslinging Granny]

Sergio clearly wasn't cognizant of all the video surveillance cameras that were pointing at his home. He walked behind his house to Moore's Security Solutions on the morning that Isabel was discovered to be missing. He asked an employee if their security cameras had taken video surveillance of his home.

 

[DexterMorgan]

We haven't heard if the Party City surveillance camera caught anyone else leaving the Celis' home on that night. If Isabel's remains were found in close proximity to the Celis' home, it's possible that someone carried her to the dump site.

You do realize how far and isolated the dumping site was right?

So if she was carried. It was in a vehicle that secretly left the house.

Especially if LE is saying that no one was seen on camera doing anything suspicious near her window or house.

But still. I must wonder.

If Sergio went to her window from the outside after finding out that she was missing.

Did the cameras atleast show that?

Hopefully it did.

Because it should show him doing a quick investigation of wth.

Before sounding the alarm. Jmo

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

You do realize how far and isolated the dumping site was right?

So if she was carried. It was in a vehicle that secretly left the house.

Especially if LE is saying that no one was seen on camera doing anything suspicious near her window or house.

But still. I must wonder.

If Sergio went to her window from the outside after finding out that she was missing.

Did the cameras atleast show that?

Hopefully it did.

Because it should show him doing a quick investigation of wth.

Before sounding the alarm. Jmo

The only official info I've seen about the dump site was that it was someplace in Tucson. How far away was the dump site?

 

[DexterMorgan]

The only official info I've seen about the dump site was that it was someplace in Tucson. How far away was the dump site?

It was a desolated 20 miles away.

Desolated.

So 20 miles isn't far.

But desolated is obviously out of town and in more different type of terrain to get there.

So hopefully someone's phone pinged in that desolated area.

Jmo for now.

 

[matou]

How do we know she was found 20 miles away? Is that reported somewhere? Link?

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

He (Sergio) said he's most angry and frustrated with Tucson Police Department's investigation. "The investigators. Everyone who's in charge of this investigation and the higher ups from them -- FBI, U.S. Marshals - everybody -- remembering that ridiculous circus and it wasn't to find my little girl."
The circus, he described, were the hundreds in law enforcement who scoured the neighborhood, the city, the county for days.
The entire effort, he (Sergio) said, was just for show.
http://www.kgun9.com/news/crime/three-years-after-the-disappearance-of-isabel-celis-her-parents-still-searching-for-answers

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

"At this moment it feels like whoever did this knew exactly how law enforcement works these cases, knew their inexperience of how to handle these cases and got away, it seems, scot-free," he (Sergio) said.
"Again, we're back to the same thing," Becky Celis said. "That Isabel is gonna be found by somebody in the community and they're gonna bring Isabel home -- not this investigation.”
http://www.kmov.com/story/31788594/celis-parents-frustrated-angry-about-missing-girl-investigation

Sergio and Becky used their tv interviews to imply that Tucson Police Dept was incompetent.

 

[ksprincess]

I was wondering when they will bury little Isabel. It is very strange that they haven't mentioned any memorial or burial for this sweet innocent baby.

I wondered this too but from reading other cases I'm sure that her remains have not been released to her family yet. I'm sure that LE will do extensive testing and make sure there is nothing else they want to examine before they will release her to family for burial.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

The initial search for Isabel was expansive and lengthy. Two years after this huge search, Tucson PD again sent officers to the Celis’ neighborhood for several days to re-interview all the residents. This was Sergio’s response:


"It's good for them to have the public see them in this way and being a little bit proactive," Sergio Celis said. "Let's get the job done boys. We want this over, we wanted this over a long time ago. Get a little push.
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/24477454/massive-effort-by-tpd-to-search-for-fresh-leads-in-isabel-celis-disappearance

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"At this moment it feels like whoever did this knew exactly how law enforcement works these cases, knew their inexperience of how to handle these cases and got away, it seems, scot-free," he (Sergio) said.
"Again, we're back to the same thing," Becky Celis said. "That Isabel is gonna be found by somebody in the community and they're gonna bring Isabel home -- not this investigation.”
http://www.kmov.com/story/31788594/celis-parents-frustrated-angry-about-missing-girl-investigation

Sergio and Becky used their tv interviews to imply that Tucson Police Dept was incompetent.

One of my best friends has lived in Tucson for over thirty years and she agrees the Tucson Police department have many unsolved cases. She also finds them inept when it comes to solving murder cases, and I am sure she isn't alone nor the only one who agrees with the Celis'.

IMO, they did what many other police departments have done in the past when children were abducted from their home and later found murdered. They developed tunnel vision immediately just like so many other PDs and all the while the actual abductor and murderer was getting away with it. Some for weeks, some for months, and some for years. In some of these other cases it wasn't the police who solved the case. If Joe Duncan hadn't brought Shasta Greone back to her hometown the local LE would still be trying to place blame on Steve Greone or someone they knew. No one, not the local PD nor the Idaho SP or the FBI had a clue about Joe Duncan being the one who had committed multiple murders, and had kidnapped, tortured, and raped repeatedly Shasta, and Dylan for almost two months. They didn't even know he had absconded from another state and was a level 3 pedophile sadist.

In the Lunsford case they were too busy at the Lunsford home falsely accusing Mark, Ruthie and Archie of harming Jessica. Meanwhile right across the street from where all the police detectives were at for days at the Lunsford home John Couey had Jessica alive inside of his sister's trailer right across the street, and was repeatedly raping her until he finally killed her three days later right under the police's nose. That is not the only case by far where LE had tunnel vision either. To me in Jessica's case the local police department has blood on their hands. Their tunnel vision cost Jessica .........her life.

And they have no reason for tunnel vision of parents when the child or children have been abducted from their home. The keyword is 'abducted' and when those are the facts the statistics change dramatically.

I will list in another post a link to the largest study ever done on abducted/kidnapped children who were later found murdered. It consists of 775 solved cases where the child was found and the suspect was known and charged/convicted. It was done to assist LE all across our nation in cases of abducted children so they can/could learn from it, and the stark differences on who the suspect will most likely be in these kind od abduction/kidnapping cases. Yet, LE still continues to get tunnel vision way too many times wasting valuable time and causing undue trauma upon trauma for innocent parents who get caught up in their tunnel vision.

IMO

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

The Tucson PD wasn't the only law enforcement agency involved in investigating Isabel's disappearance. The FBI and its BAU also investigated and provided their expert analysis and a profile of the "abductor".

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have been extremely busy with real life but I wanted to reply to IHAVENOCLUE in the closed thread. Sorry it has taken me this long, IHNC.


Posted by IHAVENOCLUE

I imagine some people have followed cases where parents have been the perpetrators in the murder of their own children...

and... Though this is not what anyone wants to believe can be factual...
some sleuthers now keep open minds in their opinions of just who the perp is....
Eliminating no one until the final evidence is presented...
End of Quote:
************************************************************************
I am sure that many have kept up with child murder cases but to me what I would like to address is the difference in most child cases that involve parents as the perpetrators and those where the child/children have been abducted from their home. Most parents who murder their children do not pretend they were abducted, and will call 911 saying the child has met with some kind of 'accident' and then if the child is dead the autopsy report shows the child/children did not die accidentally at all, and they were purposefully murdered. The parent who do abduct and murder their children are non-custodial parents who takes the child without permission, or does it when it is their time to have the child or children and then murders them with some of the murderers committing murder/suicides. The very small percentage of parents who do this is very rare.

Tucson police say Isabel Celis was abducted
Posted: May 15, 2012 7:37 PM EDT
Updated: Mar 10, 2015 6:15 AM EDT

Police now say Isabel Mercedes Celis was abducted. By Jennifer Thomas

TUCSON, Ariz. -- For the first time, police say a missing Tucson girl was, in fact, abducted from her home last month.
http://www.azfamily.com/story/28348585/tucson-police-say-isabel-celis-was-abducted

This is the case study I mention previously that involves 775 abducted and murdered children.

With more killers identified, researchers found threat that the killer will be a friend or acquaintance is nearly equal to that of a stranger.

The probability that the killer’s name will come up during the first week of the investigation has decreased.

The use of *advertiser censored* by killers as a trigger to murder has increased.

Key findings:

In 74 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child murder victim was female and the average age was 11 years old.

In 44 percent of the cases studied, the victims and killers were strangers, but in 42 percent of the cases, the victims and killers were friends or acquaintances.

Only about 14 percent of the cases studied involved parents or intimates killing the child.

Almost two-thirds of the killers in these cases have prior arrests for violent crimes, with slightly more than half of those prior crimes committed against children.

The primary motive for the child abduction killer in the cases studied was sexual assault.

In nearly 60 percent of the cases studied, more than two hours passed between the time someone realized the child was missing and the time police were notified.

In 76 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction–and in 88.5 percent of the child was dead within 24 hours.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/child-abduction-murder-research

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The Tucson PD wasn't the only law enforcement agency involved in investigating Isabel's disappearance. The FBI and its BAU also investigated and provided their expert analysis and a profile of the "abductor".

Those same agencies were also involved in the other cases I have mentioned.

 

[diamond12]

Sergio (1:47) says there was something on the surveillance tapes, but police didn't check them all?
Honestly I kind of have to agree cause unless Isa teleported somewhere, something had to be seen on those tapes.

[video=youtube;MD2dPWeXwbE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2dPWeXwbE[/video]

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Sergio (1:47) says there was something on the surveillance tapes, but police didn't check them all?
Honestly I kind of have to agree cause unless Isa teleported somewhere, something had to be seen on those tapes.

[video=youtube;MD2dPWeXwbE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2dPWeXwbE[/video]

Thank you, Diamond. I agree with you and Sergio. It seems surely there would be something on one of these surveillance footage at least that would help the investigators. But heck, in Abi and Libby's case they have a photo and voice of the suspect and still cant find him. So maybe in this case they do have someone on camera and haven't been able to find them either?

When I see the words of 'frustrated and angry' it reminds me of the same words and feelings so many innocent parents have said/felt in the past when it seemed LE was not trying to find who had really abducted their child/children. I can truly understand that overwhelming anger, and frustration they all must feel. These parents who have had to endure this must feel so helpless knowing they must rely on the police to find the abductor, and/or murderer of their child/children. I saw this same frustration, and anger at times in Mark Lunsford, Steve Greone, and Ed Smart, Elizabeth's father. Wasn't it finally Ed Smart who putout the composite sketch of the man who had taken Elizabeth when Mary, their youngest daughter described him to the sketch artist? From what I remember the police had this same drawing but never published it. Why in the world wouldn't LE do that? Imo, because they had tunnel vision, and thought Ed and/or his brother was involved and not the man Mary had described who saw him that night.

It breaks my heart knowing how many of these grieving parents have been railroaded by the very ones who are supposed to be there to find out who took their children away from them.

I did read an article recently where the Celis' PI, who is an retired-FBI agent, stated he knew much more about the case, but of course wouldn't comment on what he knows. Imo, I think the TPD is keeping in close contact with the Celis', and may even be having conversations with the PI. I have no doubt he has turned everything over to LE that he has amassed when investigating on his own.

But I have a nagging feeling this may be another case that goes unsolved by the TPD. I hope I am so very wrong.

It seems if they had a suspect in mind all along finding Isa's remains would be all they needed to finally make an arrest.

Is the cousin/uncle still living in Florida now if you know? Oh, I have asked this question before, but I didn't see it answered. Do you know if his alibi was ever verified or was he just given an alibi that cant be verified through his friend that said he was with him that night? The reason I ask is the police said Isa's remains weren't found by happenstance.

I have seen several cases through the years that will remain unsolved until someone who knew something for years can no longer live with themselves, and will tell what they have known.... even if its many years or decades later. One I saw on A&E took 26 years for the person to finally come forward. I wonder how long its been since the friend has seen the cousin/uncle and it was coming up on the anniversary date of her being abducted too. In many of these cases the people that finally came forward were also the ones back then at the time of the murder that gave the suspect a false alibi.

IMO

 

[diamond12]

oceanblueeyes I think the family's PI believes Justin is the person of interest.
From what I found online it seems he is still in Florida, but I'm not sure. The alibi is the one the friend provided, so nothing too solid I'd say.
I'm pretty sure that's JM's car you see on street view, in front of the house March 2011.
Also, thank you for your post, I agree with you.

I don't know what to make of this:
boyfriend of JM's relative on the document attached.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Two characteristics that particularly distinguish the homicides of young children from those of other juvenile victims are that homicides of young children are committed primarily by family members (71 percent) and by the common (68 percent) use of “personal weapons” (i.e., hands and feet) to batter, strangle, or suffocate victims.
http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/jvq/CV34.pdf

While fathers were about equally likely to kill an infant, they were more likely to be the alleged murderer of children older than a year. Overall, fathers were the accused murderer 57.4 percent of the time.
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2014/02/filicide

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I did read an article recently where the Celis' PI, who is an retired-FBI agent, stated he knew much more about the case, but of course wouldn't comment on what he knows. Imo, I think the TPD is keeping in close contact with the Celis', and may even be having conversations with the PI. I have no doubt he has turned everything over to LE that he has amassed when investigating on his own.

Shortened by me

The Celis' private detective is NOT retired FBI. The Celis parents falsely implied that he was FBI. Google him. He is actually a retired U.S. (federal) Customs Agent who believes he has paranormal psychic abilities. He created a paranormal, psychic investigation agency with other psychics. See page 2 and 3 of this thread.

 

[azshadowwalker]

"At this moment it feels like whoever did this knew exactly how law enforcement works these cases, knew their inexperience of how to handle these cases and got away, it seems, scot-free," he (Sergio) said.
"Again, we're back to the same thing," Becky Celis said. "That Isabel is gonna be found by somebody in the community and they're gonna bring Isabel home -- not this investigation.”
http://www.kmov.com/story/31788594/celis-parents-frustrated-angry-about-missing-girl-investigation

Sergio and Becky used their tv interviews to imply that Tucson Police Dept was incompetent.

As an Arizona native and 27-year resident of Tucson, I will say that TPD is both incompetent and crooked. Not just a department that doesn't solve cases (I personally have 2 friends whose murders have gone unsolved--one for 20 years and the other for 17), but a department that employs men who commit and cover up crimes. From stealing and selling drugs out of evidence to threatening and shaking down strip club owners to drunk driving that knocked out half the lights in the city to domestic violence and hostage-taking--and that's just what has made it into the news. That's Tucson's Finest. And other local LE isn't much better. We just had another one from Border Patrol go down for smuggling drugs.

As for parents, Noreen Gosch has spent decades attacking law enforcement and dealing with PIs who have really bat**** crazy ideas. No one uses that to claim she killed her kid or helped her husband do so.

I believe psychics are bogus. I also know that more than one LEO has used them in an official capacity, though.

 

[azshadowwalker]

We haven't heard if the Party City surveillance camera caught anyone else leaving the Celis' home on that night. If Isabel's remains were found in close proximity to the Celis' home, it's possible that someone carried her to the dump site.

There's nowhere to carry her to that's in "remote" or "rural" Pima County. We know she was not found in close proximity to the house simply by the words of TPD. Unless you think TPD is lying about location, this isn't remotely feasible. She had to have been transported from the house (whether alive or dead) in a vehicle.

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