BDI,premeditated or not?

BDI/was it premeditated or just an accident?

  • Yes,he acted upon his fantasy

    Votes: 15 36.6%

  • No,it was an accident

    Votes: 26 63.4%
  • Total voters
    41

New Posts

wengr said:
How can we assume that the person who placed the size 12's on her was the killer? I would say that person is a stager.
And, since we know that we have one or more people in the house who were bent on misleading police and thwarting the investigation, how can we assume that the paint brush handle was part of the process that killed JBR?
I maintain that even if the cord was actually used to end JBR's life, we cannot know if it was manipulated, (like with the addition of the handle), in order to mask the nature of the event.
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We can not know anything for sure.
But we can make good guesses (assumptions?) based on behavior and evidence we have actively studied for the past 17 years.
 
dodie20 said:
It Does seem like something a kid would come up with. I know this probably isn't related, (because no parent would allow their kid to watch such a movie), but back in the early 90s, my husband rented a horror movie. Supposedly, the scenes were faked, but it was still very disturbing and I couldn't finish it. There was one scene where some tourists in Egypt, (I think), were in a restaurant and were preparing to eat monkey brain. The waiter brought a live monkey to the table, and it was up to the diners to bash it in the head with hammers. Anyway, after I went to bed last night, I thought of that stupid movie and realized it was the only time I'd ever heard of anybody bashing anything in the head with a hammer. Like I said, it's probably not related to this case I'm sure, but I was thinking if 1 kid saw it and bragged to his friends, it might plant a seed. moo
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dodie20,
I remember something similar in Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark et al. All sat down to live monkee brains in-situ?

It must be a cultural thing. Some cultures eat dogs as a delicacy, others value specific insects, whilst others prefer rodents baked in clay, each to their own!


.
 
otg said:
OMG, dodie! You watched Faces of Death:
Faces of Death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Some of it was faked, but I think the majority was real (including the monkey scene). Truly not for the fainthearted.
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Saw it in high school, one of the sickest things I ever watched...saw it with a group of friends, and despite our horror, no one thought to turn it off!!!

The scene with the monkey (secured into the table with just his head sticking g out) still gives me the heebee jeebees when I think of it.

And I agree, a kid hearing about the movie from someone (an older step brother perhaps) could give an impressionable, possibly raged filled kid ideas.
 
I don't see how the head injury came first or at the point just before strangling. The experts could tell that the jab was right at death or just before. I wonder how many consulted believe that JonBenet lay there 90 minutes like Kolar says in his book?
 
Otg, yes, I remember that there were differing opinions about the order of injuries, but after listening to one of "Tricias true crime radio" shows where Dr. Wecht was a guest he did convince me that she must have been strangled first/the ligature must have been used on her first.
 
Mysteeri said:
Otg, yes, I remember that there were differing opinions about the order of injuries, but after listening to one of "Tricias true crime radio" shows where Dr. Wecht was a guest he did convince me that she must have been strangled first/the ligature must have been used on her first.
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Every other forensic expert who reviewed the case disagreed with Wecht. They all feel the head blow came first. I heard that show too and Wecht also had other facts wrong. Not to belittle his expertise, but he did not attend the autopsy, did not see the body. In this case, after hearing him, I disagree with him completely.
 
The autopsy report gives the primary cause of death as ligature strangulation associated with (secondary cause) blunt force trauma to the head

My interpretation is, for ligature strangulation to be the primary cause of death, it had to have come after the head trauma. Thus, the head trauma came first else it would have been listed as either the primary cause or it would have occurred after she was clinically dead thus not listed at all as a cause of death.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Every other forensic expert who reviewed the case disagreed with Wecht. They all feel the head blow came first. I heard that show too and Wecht also had other facts wrong. Not to belittle his expertise, but he did not attend the autopsy, did not see the body. In this case, after hearing him, I disagree with him completely.
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Wecht clearly does not know this case. I picked up his book a few days ago and couldn't get past the first paragraph without rolling my eyes. In the very first few sentences, he describes how a child screamed in the night and the neighbor who heard it immediately knew that scream came from the little girl across the street. According to Wecht, the same neighbor reported hearing the sound of metal clanging on concrete shortly thereafter. Cursory knowledge of this case would tell even a casual follower that that information is dead wrong on several levels. It's hard to move on from those first few glaring errors with any confidence in what Wecht has to say, imo.

I'll still read the book, of course, but I'm not enthused about it.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
Wecht clearly does not know this case. I picked up his book a few days ago and couldn't get past the first paragraph without rolling my eyes. In the very first few sentences, he describes how a child screamed in the night and the neighbor who heard it immediately knew that scream came from the little girl across the street. According to Wecht, the same neighbor reported hearing the sound of metal clanging on concrete shortly thereafter. Cursory knowledge of this case would tell even a casual follower that that information is dead wrong on several levels. It's hard to move on from those first few glaring errors with any confidence in what Wecht has to say, imo.

I'll still read the book, of course, but I'm not enthused about it.
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I felt the same way when I read the book. He gets "partial" facts (like the neighbor who heard the scream. It was her husband who heard the metal scraping concrete, not her. And she did not associate the scream with JB until she heard about the crime the next day.

OT- re your siggy- I knew him when he was Robert Zimmerman from Minneapolis- playing at the Kettle of Fish in NYC's Greenwich Village.
 
dodie20 said:
from the way he told this story, it was more like he witnessed it or overheard a conversation. From what I read, it didn't read like he was 'confessing'...although parts may have been redacted that I don't know about. About that hammer...what a whopper of a story! And once I read it, I couldn't let it go. IDK what kind of hammer and I don' t know how the skull fracture lined up with any hammer, but IMO, forget about the flashlight, golf club or baseball bat, because BR said a hammer was used. And since he was in that house when the murder happened, I guess he could know. And in my wildest imaginings, I never would have thought someone took a hammer to this little girl's head. There's no way this was an accident, IMO. Someone had to deliberately rear back and swing as hard as he/she could, to leave that huge hole and fracture. I don't think JB was hit because she screamed, I think she screamed because she saw that she was fixing to get hit. What a horror. It's times like this that make me doubt the PR theory. I don't care what the evidence says or how enraged she was, a mother who loved her daughter, (and I believe she did), couldn't deliberately bash her little daughter in the head. Using a flashlight or something else handy is one thing, a rash almost spontaneous action, but a hammer is so deliberate. I just don't know what to think about this. moo
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Forgive me for jumping in here, but if a hammer was handy she might have just grabbed it in the heat of the moment (or BR). Reason I say this is my mother once got so angry with me for not cleaning my room that she grabbed a huge ceramic bowl that was laying in my room and hurled it full force at my stomach. I was 6 at the time and it knocked me back and took the wind out of me. I choked out the words that I couldn't breathe and she just stared at me while laughing and said "if you can talk you can breathe". It is amazing what mom's can do in the heat of the moment. For that reason and many others I have never, ever, ever spanked or smacked my children. I was always afraid of the violence I might unleash if I allowed myself to do that. Okay, I admit I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I will do that now.

PS my mother would never be someone you would suspect of the things she did to my brother and myself and....guess what else, she owned a dance school and I was always dressed up and in dance competitions etc... I could share many stories of how our public persona was totally at odds with out secret home life....
 
Linda7NJ said:
He was almost 10. Just weeks away.

Remember that 8 year old in AZ that murdered his father and the roommate? He even lured the roommate. That boy was bone chillingly cool as a cucumber while he was spinning his tale too.

I believe a 8-9-10 year old can intend to kill and can intend to rape. It's happened!

Burke strikes me as a child with pretty severe attachment issues. He seemed indifferent, cold and very detached from his sister. Like he never missed her, not even for even a second.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I agree with you Linda. We have to remember kids develop physically and mentally at different speeds and levels at ages as they grow up. These kids were given opportunities in life that a lot of kids do not have, exposure to more things makes kids grow up faster.

At age ten many kids know what they are doing...know right from wrong. From personal family experience, kids do know what choking, hitting can do to another person especially when the other person is smaller.....the R kids were smart....one was very jealous in MOO.

I am surprised the parents did not cremate their daughter so no follow up exams could be done in the future. LE should have done test to see if JB injuries could be matched to the height of the assailant, maybe give the stength and speed of the strike, etc. this could have pointed to the attacker. Being hit in the head with a club would show a different angle if a adult did it then a ten year old....also the depth of the injury.

JMO
 
txanmom said:
Forgive me for jumping in here, but if a hammer was handy she might have just grabbed it in the heat of the moment (or BR). Reason I say this is my mother once got so angry with me for not cleaning my room that she grabbed a huge ceramic bowl that was laying in my room and hurled it full force at my stomach. I was 6 at the time and it knocked me back and took the wind out of me. I choked out the words that I couldn't breathe and she just stared at me while laughing and said "if you can talk you can breathe". It is amazing what mom's can do in the heat of the moment. For that reason and many others I have never, ever, ever spanked or smacked my children. I was always afraid of the violence I might unleash if I allowed myself to do that. Okay, I admit I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I will do that now.

PS my mother would never be someone you would suspect of the things she did to my brother and myself and....guess what else, she owned a dance school and I was always dressed up and in dance competitions etc... I could share many stories of how our public persona was totally at odds with out secret home life....
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My own mother was mean and would 'beat the snot' out of me with just about anything handy...her hand, a hairbrush, the phone, she even got after me with a mop one time-but nothing associated with being deadly. I guess what I was trying to say about the hammer, is that grabbing it just because it was handy, would be like picking up a knife or gun because it was handy. An icepick might be laying in sight and be handy, but grabbing it would cross a line. You'd go from abuser to murderer, and most people would stop themselves, you know? So, IMO, if JB was bashed with a hammer, unless it was a child who did it, (and maybe even then), I believe it was a premeditated attack. All I can say is, I hope it wasn't a hammer. Maybe some details got mixed up somewhere. And I understand about your family and appearances. My mother was an RN and was 'famous' at the hospital for how much she cared about the abused children who came in. Years later, my twin and I took our daughters to the dr., and his wife brought up my mother and how she cried for the children and fought for their rights and what an advocate she was. We didn't say anything, but our expressions must have given us away, because she was truly surprised. My sister finally said, 'no comment'.
 
dodie20 said:
My own mother was mean and would 'beat the snot' out of me with just about anything handy...her hand, a hairbrush, the phone, she even got after me with a mop one time-but nothing associated with being deadly. I guess what I was trying to say about the hammer, is that grabbing it just because it was handy, would be like picking up a knife or gun because it was handy. An icepick might be laying in sight and be handy, but grabbing it would cross a line. You'd go from abuser to murderer, and most people would stop themselves, you know? So, IMO, if JB was bashed with a hammer, unless it was a child who did it, (and maybe even then), I believe it was a premeditated attack. All I can say is, I hope it wasn't a hammer. Maybe some details got mixed up somewhere. And I understand about your family and appearances. My mother was an RN and was 'famous' at the hospital for how much she cared about the abused children who came in. Years later, my twin and I took our daughters to the dr., and his wife brought up my mother and how she cried for the children and fought for their rights and what an advocate she was. We didn't say anything, but our expressions must have given us away, because she was truly surprised. My sister finally said, 'no comment'.
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I am so sorry for what you went through. I wonder if this case is fascinating to us because of our childhood?

This case is so darn confusing! Everytime I think about it, I change from JDI, to BDI, to PDI, to IDI and back again. I think *if* BDI in the basement then it was premeditated, but if it was in her room or the kitchen during an argument then it wasn't. The reason I think it would be premeditated if it happened in the basement is that he would have had to lure her (IMO) to get her into that basement. My kids were so afraid of areas like that in our house at that age, especially at night.

This is a random thought that has nothing to do with your post or this thread, really - but I wonder if an IDI then do you think JR feels he made a mistake by thwarting the investigation from the beginning. IF an IDI I feel a Ramsey is responsible for the investigation taking so long and fizzling out.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Every other forensic expert who reviewed the case disagreed with Wecht. They all feel the head blow came first. I heard that show too and Wecht also had other facts wrong. Not to belittle his expertise, but he did not attend the autopsy, did not see the body. In this case, after hearing him, I disagree with him completely.
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So what facts did he have wrong concerning the autopsy? The amount of blood? I`d like to know why the other experts disagreed, I can search it out when I have time and enthusiasm (and I have Schillers book somewhere..).
 
Darlene733510 said:
I would think that if she was hit with a hammer there would have been a break in the skin on the scalp. Perhaps her head was slammed against something.
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Hi there, I'm new here btw.

I remember a fight broke out in high school and one kid grabbed a hammer (during woodwork class) and cracked another boy over the head with it. The blow was forceful enough to knock the boy out but it wasn't fatal (thankfully) and although he spent the next two days in hospital having scans and such, there was not one drop of blood anywhere to be found. The blow never broke his skin open.

Clearly the blow that JBR received was more powerful and so regardless of what was used, I think it was more the position of where it made contact that determined whether or not a laceration would occur. If indeed BR inflicted the head bash upon JBR, he must have been a lot stronger than he looked at the time.
 
txanmom said:
I am so sorry for what you went through. I wonder if this case is fascinating to us because of our childhood?

This case is so darn confusing! Everytime I think about it, I change from JDI, to BDI, to PDI, to IDI and back again. I think *if* BDI in the basement then it was premeditated, but if it was in her room or the kitchen during an argument then it wasn't. The reason I think it would be premeditated if it happened in the basement is that he would have had to lure her (IMO) to get her into that basement. My kids were so afraid of areas like that in our house at that age, especially at night.

This is a random thought that has nothing to do with your post or this thread, really - but I wonder if an IDI then do you think JR feels he made a mistake by thwarting the investigation from the beginning. IF an IDI I feel a Ramsey is responsible for the investigation taking so long and fizzling out.
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Many of us, maybe it is even safe to say most of us, have changed our theories over the years. I know I have. Problem is, the evidence doesn't all neatly fit one suspect. One thing I am sure of, one, two or three R's is/are responsible for the abuse, murder, staging and cover up of JBR's death.
 
Mysteeri said:
So what facts did he have wrong concerning the autopsy? The amount of blood? I`d like to know why the other experts disagreed, I can search it out when I have time and enthusiasm (and I have Schillers book somewhere..).
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It isn't that Wecht had facts wrong as much as his opinion differed from every other expert who reviewed the autopsy, including the one who actually performed it. He had a different opinion of how much blood and swelling there was.
What we DO know as fact is that she was alive when the ligature was tightened around her neck and she was alive when she was bashed on the head. There WAS minimal swelling and organization of the damage to the skull and there was bruising on the brain. NONE of these things occur in a dead person. There was also petechial hemorrhaging in her eyelids and in her lungs. Both are commonly found when someone is strangled. Because there was also a scream heard around midnight, she could not have had the ligature tightened and also screamed. Just examining the evidence of sexual penetration causing some bleeding it is easy to see that the abuse caused her to scream, the scream caused her attacker to bash her to shut her up, and the cord may or may not have been part of the abuse.
 
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