Bi Partisan Health Care Bill does not fund abortions

[mae]

I see. What about tax dollars that are earmarked for other things that end lives like war, the death penalty, euthanasia? Is there a lack of appetite for those things as well?

In any case, I don't like the fact that my tax dollars go towards enforcing things that I disagree with, but I am not trying to find a way to get around those laws. This is blatant pandering. Again, JMO.

Does the bill refuse to pay for illnesses that are treated with stem cells I wonder?

Again, Amen.

It's not about my personal values! It's not about me. It's not about what I specifically want money to be spent on. It's about a country of millions of people. If I had it my way, we'd spend a lot more an education and a lot less on corporate welfare.

There actually are times an abortion is a medical necessity to save the life or physical health of the mother. (I won't list examples, unless you really wish me to.)

Muffet, your post bears repeating. There are medically necessary reasons to have abortions. And not just for maternal health but to address natal issues as well.

 

[Muffet]

I will be the first to agree that the right to an abortion in the US is premised on bad law. Or at least weak. IE Right to Privacy. HOWEVER, I think it is ludicrous for someone to tell me under what circumstances I will or will not bear a child.

Thanks to those of you who read the finer print with the circumstances where it is covered.

Voluntary and involuntary unprotected sex happens. Personally, the belief that I should bear the consequences of both whether or not I wish to is HUGELY antiquated in my view. I completely realize and understand the opposite side of that coin...I am a mature adult and have met many who cannot bear the idea that a life could be terminated voluntarily. For any reason.

But, getting back to this bill, I am disappointed in the ramifications if this is signed into law as it stands. What we will be saying, yet again, is that choice no longer exists. JMO.

It's interesting, because as a taxpayer and someone with a serious illness, the loss of my choices with regard to those is a big reason I'm against the health care bill as a whole.

I'm in the middle in the abortion debate - both sides are too extreme for me, so my feelings about government funding reflect that. I understand why the limit is imposed, and has been for 30 years, but I also see a contradiction in that we all have to pay for things we strongly disagree with.

Lots of conundrums.

 

[Muffet]

You are making an issue personal when it's not about you! At all! It's about a woman and the rights she has to her own body and the choices surrounding it.

-respectfully snipped-

I'm with you in the early stages of the pregnancy, but when that fetus' nervous system is developed, I feel the urge to protect it from abuse as much as I would for any other baby.

The age of the fetus, not the location, should be the decisive factor, IMO. e.g., a baby the day before it's born is still in the mother's body, and an elective abortion at that point is child abuse, IMO.

I would be happiest with a law that prohibited surgical abortions except when required for the physical health of the mother. If a woman is so thoughtless she waits too long to use the MAP or RU486, she should put the child up for adoption to avoid such a cruel solution to her problem.

JMO FWIW YMMV

 

[not_my_kids]

I believe that any woman at any time for any reason has the choice to terminate a pregnancy. Period.
And if I were a rape victim and told that I would have to pay money that I don't have or have the child, that would leave me 2 choices. Back room abortion, with all of it's risks, or suicide. I would never allow a rapist to control my body, against my will for 9 months. I would kill myself first, and unfortunately that is where this bill is leading.
A lot of bodies; unwanted children, desperate women, and those that need non mainstream treatments and meds.
I guess the government has decided that it's time to weed out the sick and the weak.

 

[Muffet]

I believe that any woman at any time for any reason has the choice to terminate a pregnancy. Period.
And if I were a rape victim and told that I would have to pay money that I don't have or have the child, that would leave me 2 choices. Back room abortion, with all of it's risks, or suicide. I would never allow a rapist to control my body, against my will for 9 months. I would kill myself first, and unfortunately that is where this bill is leading.
A lot of bodies; unwanted children, desperate women, and those that need non mainstream treatments and meds.
I guess the government has decided that it's time to weed out the sick and the weak.

My bold.... See posts above. Rape has always been covered under the Hyde amendment, and it will continue to be covered in this bill.

 

[not_my_kids]

My bold.... See posts above. Rape has always been covered under the Hyde amendment, and it will continue to be covered in this bill.

Yes, reported rape...one in every 6. What about the other 5 women?

 

[mae]

Oddly enough the rate of abortions in the US has steadily and slowly decreased since the early 1990s. Teen pregnancy also continues to drop.

People have abortions for a lot of reason. And a common thread is a lack of access to reliable birth control resulting in an unintended pregnancy. Providing birth control to people is a start. NYC provides free condoms throughout the city, and pregnancy and STD rates have gone down.

Rather than debate abortion, people need to look at the root cause and address those issues. The better services and information people have, the less likely they will utilize abortion.

People are going to get pregnant. People will terminate. The legality is a non-issue as illustrated in this stat: "About 26 million women obtain legal abortions each year, while an additional 20 million abortions are obtained in countries where it is restricted or prohibited by law." We need to give people the tools to prevent it in the first place. An ounce of prevention and all of that.

I'm with you in the early stages of the pregnancy, but when that fetus' nervous system is developed, I feel the urge to protect it from abuse as much as I would for any other baby.

The age of the fetus, not the location, should be the decisive factor, IMO. e.g., a baby the day before it's born is still in the mother's body, and an elective abortion at that point is child abuse, IMO.

Muffet, I hear you for sure. I can agree with that re: elective abortions. I don't think anyone is talking about aborting a full term baby who could survive outside the womb. I think aborting a baby "the day before it's born" is murder not child abuse. Because why not an induction or a section rather than an abortion, makes no sense? But again, this is not the issue.

Generally speaking most abortions happen before 12 weeks. Well before the age of viability (anywhere from 24-34 weeks) with medical intervention.

57.6% 9 weeks
20.3% 9-10 weeks
10.2% 11-12 weeks

This means 88.1% of all abortions happen before 12 weeks. Less than 2.1% of all abortions occur after 21 weeks. Late-term abortions are not that much of an issue statistically speaking (esp because these are a lot more likely to be because of medical issues and anomalies).

http://www.realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html#misc

According to the Guttmacher Institute (a great informative site), "Nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. "

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html

 

[Muffet]

Yes, reported rape...one in every 6. What about the other 5 women?

Morning after pills are available over the counter.

 

[Muffet]

Oddly enough the rate of abortions in the US has steadily and slowly decreased since the early 1990s. Teen pregnancy also continues to drop.

People have abortions for a lot of reason. And a common thread is a lack of access to reliable birth control. Providing birth control to people is a start. NYC provides free condoms throughout the city, and pregnancy and STD rates have gone down.

Rather than debate abortion, people need to look at the root cause and address those issues. The better services and information people have, the less likely they will utilize abortion.

People are going to get pregnant. People will terminate. The legality is a non-issue as illustrated in this stat: "About 26 million women obtain legal abortions each year, while an additional 20 million abortions are obtained in countries where it is restricted or prohibited by law." We need to give people the tools to prevent it in the first place. An ounce of prevention and all of that.



Muffet, I hear you for sure. I can agree with that re: elective abortions. I don't think anyone is talking about aborting a full term baby who could survive outside the womb. I think aborting a baby "the day before it's born" is murder not child abuse. Because why not an induction or a section rather than an abortion, makes no sense? But again, this is not the issue.

Generally speaking most abortions happen before 12 weeks. Well before the age of viability (anywhere from 24-34 weeks) with medical intervention.

57.6% 9 weeks
20.3% 9-10 weeks
10.2% 11-12 weeks

This means 88.1% of all abortions happen before 12 weeks. Less than 2.1% of all abortions occur after 21 weeks. Late-term abortions are not that much of an issue statistically speaking (esp because these are a lot more likely to be because of medical issues and anomalies).

http://www.realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html#misc

Thank you, Mae. Well said, and I couldn't agree more. And those numbers are important to keep in mind. I've seen other stats that showed the percentage as even higher for the earliest weeks, i.e., under 6 weeks, thanks in part to the MAP and RU-486. They used to have to do them all later because surgical abortions were difficult until the fetus was a certain size.

 

[mae]

My bold.... See posts above. Rape has always been covered under the Hyde amendment, and it will continue to be covered in this bill.

So you have to tell everyone your reasons? A victim has to be share her past and trauma with others just to obtain medical care and a legal medical procedure? Seriously? We want to expose people to further possible shame, guilt and trauma just because of a person, moral issue?

I cannot get behind that. Not at all.

Again, this should not be about our personal, moral issues. Abortion is legal. It's a law and a right extended to women by that law. It is one of the most common surgical procedures in the US. Adult women can consent to and obtain abortions.

I wish all babies could be born (and I also wish all babies were born to parents who loved and wanted them and people adopted foster kids who are overtaking the system), but I know it's not a reality right now and we don't live in an ideal world. And because of that, I'd rather help provide obtain safe medical procedures to my fellow citizens rather than seek sometime deadly alternatives.

 

[not_my_kids]

Morning after pills are available over the counter.

And when that is widely publicized, maybe that will do some good.

It's not worth debating, the government will do what they want to do, regardless of what the public wants.
I figure I'd rather live in a country that is at least honest about that.

 

[mae]

Also, it's very important to remember people have as many abortions in countries were it's legal than where it's illegal. A law does not stop people from getting pregnant or obtaining abortions. Not being pregnant does. Therefore, provide people with the tools to not get pregnant (like actual sex education).

Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions.

Also, when it's illegal, it's also unsafe.

Where abortion is legal and permitted on broad grounds, it is generally safe, and where it is illegal in many circumstances, it is often unsafe. For example, in South Africa, the incidence of infection resulting from abortion decreased by 52% after the abortion law was liberalized in 1996.

Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe. However, in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe.

Complications due to unsafe abortion procedures account for an estimated 13% of maternal deaths worldwide, or 70,000 per year.

Additional consequences of unsafe abortion include loss of productivity, economic burden on public health systems, stigma and long-term health problems, such as infertility.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

 

[mae]

Thank you, Mae. Well said, and I couldn't agree more. And those numbers are important to keep in mind. I've seen other stats that showed the percentage as even higher for the earliest weeks, i.e., under 6 weeks, thanks in part to the MAP and RU-486. They used to have to do them all later because surgical abortions were difficult until the fetus was a certain size.

This is true. Those stats are a little older. I am finding most numbers closer to 90% (the 1 in 9) now especially with the chemical abortion options that allow for earlier termination. I had a link about this, but I cannot find it. I will have to post it.

Do they count the MAP as an abortion? I thought it prevented a pregnancy not terminated one?

The MAP can get pricey. Up to $70 over the counter, and it needs to be taken relatively soon after having unprotected sex. Also you have to have access to a pharmacy were you feel safe. If you are under 18, you need a script right? And doing the appt to get one can cost you as well, and you need to get there within a relatively quick time frame. It's not always the easy option.

 

[Muffet]

So you have to tell everyone your reasons? A victim has to be share her past and trauma with others just to obtain medical care and a legal medical procedure? Seriously? We want to expose people to further possible shame, guilt and trauma just because of a person, moral issue?

I cannot get behind that. Not at all.

Again, this should not be about our personal, moral issues. Abortion is legal. It's a law and a right extended to women by that law. It is one of the most common surgical procedures in the US. Adult women can consent to and obtain abortions.

I wish all babies could be born (and I also wish all babies were born to parents who loved and wanted them and people adopted foster kids who are overtaking the system), but I know it's not a reality right now and we don't live in an ideal world. And because of that, I'd rather help provide obtain safe medical procedures to my fellow citizens rather than seek sometime deadly alternatives.

Like I said, I'm conflicted, since we're all forced to pay for things we strongly disapprove of. Like this whole bill, for instance.

I've been a rape and dv counselor, so I totally understand the sensitivities, but with the morning after pill so readily available, that's hard to justify much focus on today.

IMO, Women need to be taught to accept at least enough responsibility to take a few pills before they require a surgical procedure. It's also important to note that being raped - or even casual sex - leaves a woman open to other medical complications as well.

The most important solution and discussion to have is education about prevention of unwanted pregnancy, STDs, and responsible parenthood. We here see the sad consequences of that social and personal failure all too often. :sheesh:

 

[southcitymom]

I would like to pick and choose what my tax dollars go for as well, but none of us have that luxury.

The fact is that this procedure is legal. Therefore, it should be included in the list of covered services. Isolating a single medical procedure that is a right covered by law is shameful. I get that there are all sides to an abortion debate. This is not an abortion debate-this is cherry picking and pandering to try and get the bill passed with the least amount of hassle.

I am INCREDIBLY disappointed.

I hear you believe! I hate the thought of my tax dollars going anywhere near the war, but we don't get to pick and choose....

I don't believe they could've gotten the bill passed without giving on the abortion issue. Most abortions are not medically necessary to the Mother's health. I would of course like to see those instances covered.

Maybe someone can answer me this - are there that many insurance plans that cover an elective abortion? I know quite a few women who have had abortions and they have always had to pay out of pocket, regardless of their insurance situation.

 

[southcitymom]

The bill will cover cases of incest or rape if I read correctly.

Thanks txsvicki - I asked my question before I read your post. I am going to assume that if what you say is true, the bill will also cover one if the mother's life is in gravely endangered by the pregnancy.

 

[southcitymom]

Won't that cause girls to lie about rape and incest to get an abortion?

Good thought!

 

[daisy7]

Do insurance companies pay for abortions that are not medically needed?

I really have no idea. But, I think that's what it comes down to, whether it's medically needed or not. Insurance paid for 3 of my sons to get circumsized, but they wouldn't for my youngest DS, cuz it wasn't medically necessary. I paid for that myself.

 

[Muffet]

This is true. Those stats are a little older. I am finding most numbers closer to 90% (the 1 in 9) now especially with the chemical abortion options that allow for earlier termination. I had a link about this, but I cannot find it. I will have to post it.

Do they count the MAP as an abortion? I thought it prevented a pregnancy not terminated one?

No, MAP isn't counted in abortion stats, but they have been counted in terms of reduced unwanted pregnancies. I think the upped %s in earlier weeks stats are from a combination of ru-486 and advances in procedures.

The MAP can get pricey. Up to $70 over the counter, and it needs to be taken relatively soon after having unprotected sex. Also you have to have access to a pharmacy were you feel safe. If you are under 18, you need a script right? And doing the appt to get one can cost you as well, and you need to get there within a relatively quick time frame. It's not always the easy option.

All those things are why I said I would make it and birth control free.

Regardless, it's still always easier and safer than the alternative.

 

[southcitymom]

Do you know anyone who has been impregnated by incest or rape?

I do. And I could have never suggested to either of these women that they had a moral obligation to carry such a pregnancy to term.