Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
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Black Mark On Her Mandible

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by lovebites, Sep 1, 2006.

  1. lovebites

    lovebites New Member

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    In the autopsy photos of JonBenet there is a black mark on her mandible (looks fingertip sized) whereas the other marks on her still appear to be reddish to reddish purple in color - has the black mark ever been explained?
     
  2. angelwngs

    angelwngs New Member

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    I read probable brusing from snaps or buttons...???...
     
  3. lovebites

    lovebites New Member

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    Thank you angelwngs. It always stood out to me how dark that one mark was. Interesting.
     
  4. Jacobi

    Jacobi New Member

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    Is it possible that the marks on her back, the ones that are 35mm apart, could have come from removable vampire fangs? The intercuspid distance of an adult is around 35mm. "Vampire" bites only leave two marks, not a full bite mark. If the force was not excessive as to not penetrate the skin, I think it could leave a reddish, purple mark as shown in the photos.

    As for the mark on her face, I cannot explain that.
     
  5. leighl

    leighl New Member

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    I have also read speculation that it might be impressions from the beads of a necklace/bracelet that JonBenet or the person who murdered her may have been wearing. It is interesting to note that these marks occurred on her back as well.
     
  6. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    The clothing snap one is the subject of much discussion. If you look closely, you can see this boat-shaped mark in it. Now, there's a clothing line for kids, La Petit Bateau, that makes snaps like that.

    (Doesn't that sound like something Patsy would buy?)
     
  7. Maybe So

    Maybe So The one and only

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    Marks on her face, same marks on her back, unexplained.

    Snaps? I doubt it...seems to me that lots of people die wearing clothes with buttons, snaps and beads, people even die wearing jewelrey so wouldn't similar marks from such things be so common place on dead bodies that no one would even have to wonder what the marks on JBR were? especially a medical examiner?

    Something unusual made those marks ...as I have never read that such marks are all that common on bodies of the dead.
     
  8. Trocaria

    Trocaria New Member

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    If I recall correctly, JBR had been laying on the right side of her face. On the autopsy report, livor mortis is noted on the body right...anything she would have been leaning against would have left an imprint...like the button or snap on a jacket, like maybe the jacket she had been wearing that night? Which means that she had been killed, laid around and cooled while wearing that jacket...ah, are you all starting to see what I see?

    Do we know with all certainty that the home was the primary crime scene????:banghead:
     
  9. Maybe So

    Maybe So The one and only

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    How did she get the 2 similar marks on her back?
     
  10. Trocaria

    Trocaria New Member

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    The marks on the back were the two rust colored holed, inches apart weren't they? They were smaller if I recall than that round darkened mark on the lateral angle of the mandible. Lemme go look again. I want to be sure.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You got it, Trocaria.
     
  12. Trocaria

    Trocaria New Member

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    I've put out a question to my embalmer's group, regarding livor and imprints.
    It seems to me that whatever the flesh is pressed against as the blood settles into the dependent parts of the body, if there is a groove, a pattern, that it will take shape on the flesh just as it would in life. You all know about that, when your jeans are too snug on the old tum-tum?

    I have yet to see anything along that order, most of the cases I see have the standard livor present on the back.
    Will get back to you.
     
  13. Trocaria

    Trocaria New Member

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    http://www.moval.edu/faculty/wilsona/_private/modified%20l16a_files/frame.htm#slide0025.htm


    Found it! I knew that I had seen this!
    Per this site,
    "Livor Mortis- such blanching will carry [the] imprint of what ever object it is in contact with, (eg: carpet, bedspread ect)

    Here now is the most telling part:
    If livor mortis is fully developed, (8 to 12 hours), such imprints on the blanched area will remain even if the body is moved afterwards.

    If that round hole is not part of a stun gun burn, what in the heck was that child leaning against? Anyone seen a pic of her in the jacket she wore that last night?
     
  14. Maybe So

    Maybe So The one and only

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    I still don't buy the theory. She had snaps against her face and against her back? Why would she still be in a jacket?..if she was awake and eating pineapple in her home then I doubt she was still dressed in a jacket or coat by the time of her murder 1 or 2 hours later.
     
  15. Trocaria

    Trocaria New Member

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    The marks on the back are like the marks left by the Air Taser stun gun. The one on the face is different.
     
  16. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    "The marks on the back are like the marks left by the Air Taser stun gun."

    Not even close.
     
  17. s_finch

    s_finch New Member

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    Are there autopsy photos somewhere (stupid question, I know) of someone WITH Air Taser marks? Guess I'll try a google on that.
     
  18. lovebites

    lovebites New Member

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    This particular mark on her face appears quite different from the other marks on her. It's pronounced and black whereas the other marks, such as the petechial hemorrhage marks around her neck, are red in color. It looks bigger than a stun gun mark - to me it looks to be the size of a fingertip. Just thinking out loud, but if she was grabbed hard around the face, I guess there'd be more than one of these marks? or could a thumb dig in more because the pressure is more dispersed with the other side of the hand amoung the four fingers and the thumb is applying pressure all on it's own on whatever side it's on?
     
  19. s_finch

    s_finch New Member

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    Some stuff I gleamed from this site http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/env-23.htm
    With " Ligature strangulation ... will always be conjunctival petechiae.....

    Manual strangulation ...There will always be conjunctival petechiae. Usually, the force used is sufficient to produce hemorrhage. Older people tend to have more extensively calcified (and therefore breakable) thyroid cartilage horns, hyoid bones, and tracheas. Ante-mortem fractures of the hyoid bone are pathognomonic of manual strangulation. Again, look for nail marks ("claw marks", "scratch marks"), little bruises, and so forth. "Clever" perpetrators strangle drunkards and children using the palm, without producing finger marks or damaging the deep structures of the neck. In this case, there may be no marks. ........ELECTRICAL INJURIES ....Electrical burns are generally small, gray, charred marks with a grayish-white rim (blood was driven out, then vessels were seared closed). "

    The above referenced site is very informative. I bolded the part about it being possible to strangle without "damaging the deep structures of the neck" as I believe JBR's autopsy points out that her did not have damage to her throat structures. Also, would a taser gun leave electrical type of marks? If so, then apparently the marks would be ashy.

    Still searching for autopsy pics which include stun gun marks---most of what I search brings up JBR.
     
  20. PagingDrDetect

    PagingDrDetect New Member

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    This is a photo of actual stun gun marks on the body of Gerald Boggs who was proven to have been stun gunned just before his murder. This photo was taken at his autopsy. As you can see, the mark is vastly different than that on JBR...

    http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/boggspics.jpg
     

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