Body being wiped down

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Anyhoo, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    This might not be relevant to anything, but I thought I would post it anyway. We have all heard about how JB's body had been found to be "wiped down", without any real indication of what that specifically means. One can envision someone taking a wet rag and wiping down the body with that to removed evidence so it would not be discovered by LE. For a long time I envisioned that someone brought a wet rag, etc. to the location of JB's dead body (in the basement) and did the wiping down there. Later, I thought that it would be more logical for someone who wanted to clean the body to physically bring the body to a location where it could be thoroughly cleaned, such as to a bathtub in a bathroom. If I wanted to clean a body and make sure it was done right, that is how I would do it. So I thought that, assuming the murder happened in the basement, that JB's body would have been carried to a bathroom upstairs to be cleaned prior to the staging. But then I read somewhere that there was a shower stall actually in the basement and I had one of those Aha moments, where I thought: that's how they did it. They brought her to that shower stall in the basement and cleaned her up there prior to the staging of the body.

    The only reason I bring this up is that I have never read anything about this "wiping down" and this may be somehow significant.

    Does this make sense to anyone? Am I off-base with this? Please share your thoughts on this.
     
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  3. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682461/December 26

    The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement.

    JR and FW said they searched a shower stall in the basement prior to finding JB's body.

    Again, maybe this is nothing but maybe it means something. I have always found it interesting to hear that the body was wiped down, as if the perpetrator(s) were being careful to remove any evidence from the body. What if the body was not just wiped down? What if there was seminal fluid in the vagina after the sexual assault that was washed out in this shower stall? That would explain why no semen was found in or on the body.
     
  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The "wiping down" has been known for years and discussed on this forum for years as well. During the autopsy, there were two police detectives present as well as another female Medical Examiner. The two police were Dets Arndt & Trujillo. As is usual in an autopsy of a crime victim, the coroner will say verbally to police things that he does not put in the written report. The reason for this is that the written report is only for describing what the coroner SEES, and not what he thinks about it. For example, the autopsy noted JB's cross, ring and ID bracelet as "yellow metal". They were actually 14K gold, but to the coroner's eyes they were "yellow metal". Further tests with chemicals would be needed to ascertain if they were 14K gold.
    The same held true for two much more important findings. One was that the coroner told police at the autopsy that her internal injuries were consistent with digital penetration and the other was that her pubic area and upper thighs appeared to have been wiped down with a cloth. Neither appears in the written report because opinions, no matter how expert, of the coroner do not belong in the official written report. Instead, they may be in his notes, either written or dictated, and may be shared with police or other LE. But the fact that the coroner found this evidence was made public by Det Arndt, and is not simply speculation.
     
  5. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    I find this topic VERY INTERESTING, Anyhoo, but I became interested in the case more recently than many (most?) other posters.

    Shapiro wrote an article in March of 2012 about the media portraying the crime, evidence, etc. inaccurately. Included in the article is this tidbit:

    "The only time the police ever changed their course in the investigation was very early on when they initially suspected John Ramsey of the murder and then decided it could be Patsy instead. The very first stories following the December 26, 1996 murder falsely reported that semen was found on JonBenet after she was brought upstairs from the basement by her father, John Ramsey.

    Those reports created intense speculation that John was a pedophile and a murderer who sexually abused his 6-year old daughter. Nothing could have been further from the truth. It later turned out that the so called semen found JonBenet was actually a skin cleanser that killer used to remove his or her DNA off JonBenet."

    This is the only source, of which I am aware, mentioning "skin cleanser". Of course, we don't know that this is factual information based upon Shapiro's word alone, but it's interesting nonetheless... IMO.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journa...Shifts Guilt and Innocence Around the Ramseys
     
  6. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    It is interesting because it reveals the mind of the killer that they would think to do this. Was the entire body cleaned or just one region? Was only the pubic region cleaned? Why would it be important to clean that? What was being wiped away? What evidence in that region could it be that they were trying to remove? I can think of one thing: semen or seminal fluid. If not that, then what? Or is it possible that this was nothing but staging, to give the appearance that the killer cleaned their semen from her body?
     
  7. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    her panties were changed as well which makes me think she was wiped off in order to clean her blood >>>hide the fact that she was assaulted?
     
  8. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    If her panties were changed, did LE find her other panties or did they disappear?

    If they cleaned a significant amount of blood away then that would indicate a more severe sexual assault. If we believe the Ramsey's did the staging, then it seems to me they would want for there to be blood to indicate sexual assault. It would be illogical to clean up your own staging. I think the wiping down was done for a different reason. I suspect someone was afraid that their DNA had been left in JB's vaginal region and they wanted this removed before LE found the body.
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    could be.I started a thread earlier (not approved yet I see) re JR's bathrobe (found PR's comment weird) and all the talk re his underwear (why did LE insist re what he was wearing BEFORE 911 was dialed??)
     
  10. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I read this a long ago,sorry don't recall now whether in PMPT or ST's book that they found some fluid on her leg but they couldn't extract DNA from it.Does anyone know what kind of fluid it was?
     
  11. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    I heard the fluid was a drop of JB's blood and that there was foreign DNA co-mingled with that blood that LE did extract and that it was a match with the foreign DNA found in JB's oversized underwear. The foreign DNA supposedly does not match any Ramsey.
     
  12. gramcracker

    gramcracker Indentured Cat Servant

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    Steve Thomas' Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 1745
    Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 4736
    didn't find it mentioned in Foreign Faction
     
  13. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    Linda Arndt didn't make public what the medical examiner said. Det. James Byfield wrote in his search warrant affidavit what Arndt told him about witnessing the autopsy and the reasons that justified a new search warrant for items not previously listed. Until the autopsy, they didn't know about the sexual assault. Once they did know, they had to get an additional warrant to look for items that might be related to a sex crime (computers, storage media, video recorders, VCR tapes, etc.). When the search warrants were released publicly, that's when we found out about Arndt's relating Meyer's opinion that the genital injuries were "consistent with digital penetration," and that the Wood's lamp revealed something on the surface of her thighs which might have been semen. Byfield's exact words of what Arndt told him follow (from the search warrant):
    In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, (Dr. Meyer) used a black florescent light to view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant (Byfield) knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas on the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid.
    Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs form the child's body.
    This warrant was requested and issued before the results of the swabs came back from the lab. I've always understood the lab determined that the smeared fluid was blood. I've never before heard anyone suggest it was "skin cleanser" (which I'm not sure would show up under a black light). But, who knows? Did Jeffie Boy reveal some inside knowledge that Alex Hunter told him about while they were looking at and giggling over men's magazines like a couple of teenagers? :dunno:
     
  14. gramcracker

    gramcracker Indentured Cat Servant

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    James Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 3869
     
  15. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I always had this crazy (I admit :D ) idea....what if they found semen indeed but covered it up after figuring out who it belonged to?wouldn't surprise me to be honest
     
  16. Venom

    Venom New Member

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    Her panties were never found.
     
  17. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    I don't think it's crazy at all. We've been told that only 10% of the evidence is public knowledge. And after all, AH managed to cover up a Grand Jury indictment for 13 years!
     
  18. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    OTG, I'm addressing this to you because if anyone would know, it's you. ;)

    I could swear that I remember hearing somewhere that the family actually could NOT be ruled out on that DNA sample (Or they couldn't be ruled out for something else). I can't remember where, or why, but I always wondered why no one ever talked about it. Does this ring any bells or am I totally confused? TIA
     
  19. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    Does anyone else remember the story about a sealed box that JR had given his pilot asking him to store it at the airplane locker? As I recall, the box was given to him somehow before JonBenet's body had been found. The police didn't find out about it until several days later. I don't remember ever hearing the end of it -- whether it was located, recovered, what was in it. Anyone?
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Anyhoo,

    The reference to "wiped down" is from Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks at the autopsy, i.e.

    1996-12-27: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado, excerpt
    In the same context Coroner Meyer opined that JonBenet had been subject to Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

    No investigator from the Boulder Police Department has ever remarked if there was no size-6 Wednesday, day of the week underwear removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer, or if there was! This includes James Kolar, suggesting that it is a significant piece of the jigsaw?


    .
     
  21. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    Is it your understanding that there was a DNA match between what was co-mingled in the blood on JB's leg and the DNA found in the waist band and leg bands of the underwear?
     

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