Body snatchers?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Rashi'sDaughter, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Rashi'sDaughter

    Rashi'sDaughter New Member

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    Is there any evidence to suggest that the original intent was to dump/remove JonBenet's body from the house? Kidnappings are so much more believable when the body is found somewhere other than the family's home. Yes the livor mortis patterns tell us that she died in basically the same position she was found in, so this may indicate that there was not any attempt to, for instance, put her in the suitcase. But maybe the window was broken so that the body could be passed through to the other side? Just wondering if anyone else has any theories about this really strange detail. I think that this is the ONLY case of supposed kidnapping where the child is found still within the family home. Maybe there was a plan to get her out and it was somehow foiled? Just wondering...:waitasec:
     
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  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Yep,I am now convinced that this is why she was wrapped in a blanket.
    And wanting to remove her body from the house is the only reason why a RN was written IMO.
    Doesn't make any sense to stage a kidnapping if you leave the body in the house.
    I think she was wearing the nightgown when she died but this is one of the reasons why she was redressed ,they didn't want people to believe (if body found one day) that she died in her home/BEDROOM.
     
  4. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    ITA with both of you. The RN makes no sense if the body is still in the house. Well ok....it doesn't make any sense anyway, but you KWIM. I'm not sure they intended to take her out the window though. Why take a chance on being seen when they could take her through the house directly to a car in the garage? The fact that I'm almost positive "someone" intended to remove her body from the house, but never got the chance, makes me think Midwest Mama may be right about JR acting alone without PR's knowledge. Maybe she called 911 too fast. :dunno: If no one ever intended to remove her from the house, but still left a RN, then they had to be the dumbest killer on earth. Wrapping her in the blanket may have been intended to keep any forensic evidence out of the car, or because they didn't want to put her out in the snow without some sort of "protection" from the weather.
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I know that there are people who disagree with me re this and I respect that.But I really can't explain the following 2 things otherwise (they wanted to get rid of the body)

    they took so much time and effort to write a 3 page RANSOM/KIDNAPPING note (pretty risky also),why if they intended to leave the body in the house,just to point fingers at someone else?stupid.very stupid and risky.

    the body wrapped up in the blanket (easy to transport.and you wouldn't just dump your CHILDS body in a hole,naked or just wearing a nightgown)
     
  6. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Not sure either.
    But her body may have been placed somewhere else at first and we don't know where (FW opened the door and didn't see the body/blanket in the wine cellar)
     
  7. pageantmom

    pageantmom New Member

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    One time someone here had a theory that they planned to dump the body in Lake Michigan from their private plane.
     
  8. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    interesting !
    I was shocked when I learned what JR told the cops (re the plane) ....h wanted to leave because he needed to attend a meeting!wtf??your "kidnapped" child was just found dead and you care about a freaking meeting??
     
  9. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    Thanks for starting this thread, Rashi's daughter! This aspect deserves good exploration.

    Yep, yep and yep.....had to plan to remove the body, or else no need for the "fake kidnappers" to leave the note. If the "kidnappers" would have decided or accidentally killed her, either way they would have removed the note.

    The initial plan to remove the body was foiled - had to have been. Madelaine, wrapping the body to remove her makes sense, but if it had been planned to put her body in the car and remove it before the rest of the plan could be worked out, could have led to the R's being arrested immediately, IMO.

    If an R would have put JB's body wrapped in the blanket, in the car somewhere, fibers - maybe even fuzzies - from the white blanket would have been discovered in the car, unless she would have additionally been wrapped anything that would have prevented the transference, which still would have been iffy.

    Fibers or fuzzies from the blanket could have been accounted for if: (this is scenario according to RN descriptions) the money was delivered, and JR was directed to where he could pick-up his daughter, where he would have found her dead and wrapped in her blanket, could have picked her up immediately and placed her in his car for further protection until either police arrived (called from his cell phone) or he sped somewhere else with her to end the event. But, without completing the ransom exchange, if she was gone, which the note indicated she should have been, there would have been no way those blanket fibers would have been in his car.

    JB's body could not have seemingly been placed into the car until AFTER the money had been taken for exchange. This would have allowed for an R to have placed her in the car from the house, keeping her there under guise of taking the ransom.

    That now leaves two options: to get her her body out of the house by another maneuver, prior to calling in police so she wouldn't be found in the house (which is what the note indicated) under any circumstances, or keep the body hidden until there might be a chance to get it out later.

    An attempt to put her in the suitcase, and somehow get the suitcase out of the house, other than by placing it in the car, might have seemed an option. Until it was tried, (there were duvet fibers on her shirt) and discovered the fit wasn't right, or if it was possible to close and latch the suitcase (which was drawn by another poster once), when the attempt to get the suitcase out through the window might have been tried, (allowing the window debris to come into the basement) it was discovered the suitcase was too large, which it was later documented. Then, the only option was to hide her somewhere until the body could be removed later.

    This is the first time I have posted my thought about the fracture of JB's skull in connection with the suitcase: I do not doubt the bash produced the oval displacement of skull that was found during autopsy. But I have wondered if the 8" fracture might have occurred when the suitcase lid was closed and latched on her. If her skull was just a bit too large for the suitcase to close easily, and the closing was forced????? Once she was removed from the suitcase, the fracture could have expanded.
     
  10. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    All good points. BTW, I wasn't presuming that the blanket would keep forensic evidence out of the car, just that they might have thought so, or planned to wrap her and the blanket in a tarp or plastic bag or something. No matter what they used a CD would still have been able to detect the decomp.

    If they tried to put her in the suitcase it would have had to have happened immediately after death, before rigor or livor set in, but I think it is possible that it was tried. I just don't get why they would try to take it out the window instead of through the house directly to the garage. :waitasec: Unless of course, one was hiding it from the other. If that's the case, he probably wouldn't have worried about a neighbor seeing him carrying a suitcase to the car since they were leaving for MI that morning.

    One way or the other, I do believe that suitcase is relevant. I also believe that plan A was to get her out of the house, but something happened that prevented it. Plan B was to keep her hidden until LE left and then get her out, but that didn't work either. Plan C was to "find" her. :moo:
     
  11. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    ITA with everything
    and IMO JR was the mastermind,it also explains his behavior (noticed by Arndt)...to "find" her....wasn't planned but an emergency "exit" (out of the situation that was getting desperate)

    there is one thing I am not sure of.....they both claim he told her to call 911 and she did it...dunno if I buy it or not....MAYBE she called 911 without even waiting for his approval (she was a know it all,impatient person)...I am convinced that a parent would stop for a minute and think about the consequences (child being beheaded!!!!) you don't just grab the phone if your child's life is at stake (not if you are JR and there are plenty ppl you could ask for a special advice....)....something stinks re the 911 call story as well....
     
  12. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Thanks for starting this thread, because I believe, (for a bit anyway), that the killer planned to get rid of the body. I remember reading a transcript between JR and LE where the nightgown was discussed, and it was brought up that it was JB's favorite gown that she took on pageant trips. I don't know if she was put in the suitcase, but I think the idea might have been there. The main reasons I think the killer at least half-way planned to get rid of the body, is because #1, IMO, it would be the natural reaction of a murderer to want to get a body out of his house, in an effort to distance himself from the crime #2, to open up the possibility of multiple suspects, and #3, to make this look like a real kidnapping. Ransom note=kidnapped hostage, not ransom note=dead body in the basement. moo
     
  13. ghostrighter

    ghostrighter Member

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    BBM Maybe BR woke up. MOO
     
  14. wengr

    wengr New Member

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    Imo, it would appear that there was a plan to take her out at some point. A fake ransom note was written. This was done for a purpose. It seems to me that the purpose is pretty apparent. Over fifty percent of the ransom note is used to warn the R's as to what will happen if they disregard intructions. Intructions that they immediately disregard. Imo, the purpose of the RN is to precondition the police for what they will eventually find - a dead JB. This makes sense for a body found outside, and therefore I have to believe that there was a plan to remove, and it was thwarted or abandoned.
     
  15. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    Yep, - AB, and luck for C!

    Good note about decomp and CD as well as to why no body in car.
    WC was cooler and more sealed.

    1) BBM: Could the perp have tried to put her in the suitcase between the head bash and ligature strangle? If there was a strangulation not using ligature, while bashing, perp could have assumed she was dead. Tried the suitcase, and in removing her, discovered she wasn't really dead, which led to the final ligature strangulation and placing in the WC??

    2) BBM: Taking a chance of lugging a heavy suitcase up the stairs and through the house to somewhere - too risky at the time it would have been done. One of the other two in the house, if uninvolved at that point and perhaps hearing noise and coming upon the scene, would have been tipped off. Had to hide the body elsewhere if suitcase was planned to be slipped through the window, but wasn't.
     
  16. deca

    deca New Member

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    I also think that the original plan was to remove her from the house. It could have been thwarted by anything you other posters mentioned- BR waking, realized evidence would be left in car, etc- but I want to add that it could be that they ran out of time.

    At 5ish, some people, even during the holidays, start to be "up and about" jogging, making breakfast, etc. If all the stuff that happened that night took awhile, and they tried to think of where they would leave her they realized they wouldn't get back in enough time before neighbors might see their car return. To be more specific, if it was about 4 am when the realized they wanted to get her out of the house, and they were going to place her out in the woods or take her to the airport or whatever- to do that and get back would be about 5 ish. Bad time to be sneaking your car back into the neighborhood. It's quiet enough that us morning people take note of cars coming in and out.
     
  17. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I am probably one of the few who do not believe the parents ever planned to "dump" her body or remove her from the home (except temporarily). First of all, they would never just "dump" her. No way would they leave her to be eaten by animals or found by cadaver dogs. (No open coffin in a pageant dress and tiara for sure).
    I firmly believe that she was hidden in the wine cellar hoping that she would NOT be found and when the police and everyone else left, then they could call police again she say she had been returned, but the "kidnappers obviously killed her because we disobeyed their instructions in the note". To me, this explains both the note and the presence of the dead body.
    This original plan was thwarted when police did NOT leave, and it became apparent to JR that they were not GOING to leave them alone in the house. When he realized the police were staying until they, themselves, were going to have to leave the house, JR formed "Plan B" (possibly without consulting Patsy". He had to "find" her himself and he took the first opportunity to do so, courtesy of Det. Arndt. That is why he made the statements about wanting to get a blanket to cover her up so Patsy "wouldn't have to see her that way". HE had ALREADY seen her that way- when he made his 10 am trip to the basement during his unaccounted-for time out of Arndt's sight. But I would venture to say that Patsy, while she saw her daughter dead, had not seen her fully stiffened by rigor, blue, with mouth agape from rigor, hands pulled up, etc- the way she looked 10-12 hours LATER. A just-dead body looks asleep, in general. A body dead 10-12 hours looks VERY different and VERY DEAD. I believe this is what JR was trying to spare her from seeing. The next time Patsy and family saw her was in her coffin, rigor finally gone, make up to hide the pallor, hair washed and curled, and in her pageant finery. Patsy's coffin-side comment to BR? "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?". Sure- perfect FOREVER.
     
  18. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    DeeDee, I'm in the company of these 'few' who believes that JB's body was never planned to be 'dumped'. 100% agree with you on this logic (BBM):

    ...PLUS the URGENT need for morning 'gathering' of all their friends!!!!

    JMO
     
  19. wengr

    wengr New Member

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    While I have to believe that they would truely despise the idea of leaving her outside the house, it's not like they have not shown a willingness to go to great lengths to protect who they are protecting, and I would add, they did not hesitate to bolt and leave JB lying on the living room floor - and possibly in a filthy basement room.
    The BBM portion above is where I have a hard time accepting this theory. How would they explain the return of JB? It would require a selling of the notion that a kidnapping and murdering foreign faction would return to the scene after the fact, after authorities are involved, and for no purpose. Also, If the plan was to have JB found dead in the house, why not skip any note, stage a break in, stage an assault and then call to report a missing child? It would avoid the chance of being connected to the note, and more importantly it avoids the bizarre situation of a ransom note where there is no kidnapping, which imo is the #1 factor that brought attention to the parents.
     
  20. cynic

    cynic Active Member

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    Add me to the group against “body snatching.”
    Dumping her outside would have serious risks involved, most notably, physical evidence connecting the Ramseys to a remote secondary crime scene would be FAR more difficult to explain.
    While that would have probably been more of a concern for John, the concern from Patsy’s perspective, as has been said, would have been the thought that animals and / or the elements would destroy the chance for her little beauty queen to be displayed once last time at her funeral, picture perfect, in her sparkling tiara.
    There is even a hint of this concern in the ransom note…”You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.”
     
  21. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I believe the filthy basement floor is exactly why they put the white blanket down first. I think they would probably work out the "details" of how she was "returned" after everyone left. The note was VERY important. It laid out specifically why JB would be killed. Then- all they had to do was DO what they were told NOT to do. They called police and several friends over- despite being "told" they were "being watched".
    No, that note was a big big part of their plan. The note was PROOF JB was going to be killed if they disobeyed. Had they simply staged a break-in, what would the reason be for her being taken if there was no ransom, no issues with JR's "bussiness? Also they had watched "Ransom"- kidnapping and ransom notes were very much in the forefront.
     

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