Bones

According to the defense expert (who IIRC had experience with burned human remains and bodies being moved) the location of the various bones seemed to indicate the body was most likely burned at the quarry.

Can look for the link when I have more time.
 
According to the defense expert (who IIRC had experience with burned human remains and bodies being moved) the location of the various bones seemed to indicate the body was most likely burned at the quarry.

Can look for the link when I have more time.

Didn't KZ say the bones were moved and the body couldn't have been burned whole?
It will be interesting to find out what she knows about that.
 
Dr Scott Fairgrieve testified on March 9, 2007 regarding the bones.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...-2007Mar09.pdf

His testimony begins around page 107.

On page 129 there is discussion of whether it could be determined whether the bones had been burned at the locations where they were found.

Q. Okay. And based on the recovery method that was
18 used here, are you able to offer an opinion, to a
19 reasonable degree of scientific certainty, about
20 where these human remains were burned?
21 A. No, I'm not.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. Well, the fact is, that because I don't have any
24 records from which to examine that would actually
25 indicate to me that there are bones in the
135
1 original location, where they were burned, I
2 can't offer an opinion on that.

And a little later offers this:

17 Q. Okay. And based on the recovery method that was
18 used here, are you able to offer an opinion, to a
19 reasonable degree of scientific certainty, about
20 where these human remains were burned?
21 A. No, I'm not.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. Well, the fact is, that because I don't have any
24 records from which to examine that would actually
25 indicate to me that there are bones in the
135
1 original location, where they were burned, I
2 can't offer an opinion on that.

and further

17 Q. Well, can you agree with Dr. Eisenberg's opinion,
18 as I recall it, that probably the area behind
19 Mr. Avery's garage was the original burn site for
20 the bone fragments, wherever found?
21 A. I cannot agree with that at this point.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. Well, because, firstly, the documentation. The
24 documentation itself did not lend itself to that
25 interpretation, so I can make no inference
139

Furthermore:

16 A. I have been involved in cases where human
17 cremains have been burned in one location and
18 moved to another location. And in those cases,
19 in fact, the actual location where the bones have
20 been moved to, in other words, their ultimate
21 location of where they have been buried, or
22 placed in another context, tends to be the
23 location where most of the remains are. And in
24 those -- in that instance, for example, I have
25 recovered elements or parts of the skeleton from
140
1 all areas of the body.

continuing:

4 Q. Are you saying that in your experience, when --
5 when burnt bones are moved, you tend to find the
6 majority of them away from the place in which
7 they were burned; in other words, find them in
8 the place to which they were moved, not from
9 which they were moved?
...
14 A. I understand that, from your question, the answer
15 is, yes, in the cases I have dealt with where
16 human cremains have been moved, the majority of
17 them have been from the body and making up the
18 largest portion of the body, from the ultimate
19 final place where they were actually moved to.

So it would seem that Fairgrieve declined to identify the quarry as the original burn site, he did offer that in his experience that when cremains are moved the majority will be found in the new location and not in the original location.
 
Do we have any real comparison to how much was found in the barrels and how much was found in the pit? Just thinking outside the box. What if, say, the bones went from quarry to barrel to pit?

I always imagined the barrels as being the last place they were put....but if Fairgrieve's rule of thumb holds true, then that would be the pit. Perhaps the quarry was the primary site, the bones were moved in the barrels and then were pulled out by hand and flung/tossed.

I don't believe they were dumped, I have a hard time someone could do that bad of a job dumping a barrel. Well...maybe if Colburn or Lenk were put in charge of it. I could see them trying to dump a barrel and the barrel ending up more full than it started.
 
Dr Scott Fairgrieve testified on March 9, 2007 regarding the bones.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...-2007Mar09.pdf

His testimony begins around page 107.

On page 129 there is discussion of whether it could be determined whether the bones had been burned at the locations where they were found.

<<<< RSBM >>>>

So it would seem that Fairgrieve declined to identify the quarry as the original burn site, he did offer that in his experience that when cremains are moved the majority will be found in the new location and not in the original location.

ahhh a poster after my own heart.... sharing links and actual testimony. Hope it doesn't confuse too many people ;-) LOL
 
Do we have any real comparison to how much was found in the barrels and how much was found in the pit? Just thinking outside the box. What if, say, the bones went from quarry to barrel to pit?

I always imagined the barrels as being the last place they were put....but if Fairgrieve's rule of thumb holds true, then that would be the pit. Perhaps the quarry was the primary site, the bones were moved in the barrels and then were pulled out by hand and flung/tossed.

I don't believe they were dumped, I have a hard time someone could do that bad of a job dumping a barrel. Well...maybe if Colburn or Lenk were put in charge of it. I could see them trying to dump a barrel and the barrel ending up more full than it started.

I don't think there is a comparison Saul.

These will give you some idea of what was found and where.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...berg-Pics-of-Cut-Marks-on-Halbach-Remains.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Exhibit-402-Diagram-of-Avery-Salvage-Yard.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...0-Graphic-Showing-Bones-Found-in-Burn-Pit.jpg

Just doing a quick comparison... the burn barrel bone identification is very generic compared to the burn pit bone id (example: long bones vs Femur/Humerous/Ulna). Also, scapula, vertebrae and metacarpals (which there are quite a few in each wrist) were also found in both area's.
 
Dassey-Exhibit-169-150x150.jpgDassey-Exhibit-175-150x150.jpg

2 new photo's of the fire pit released, these are from BD's trial.
 
It's interesting that police added a gallon bleach bottle to their photograph of their shadows looming over the pit. I suppose Bear prevented the cops from adding that to the burn pit earlier than they did. Boo hoo!

The wires from steel belted tires burned in the pit are still there - if it was true human bone fragments were 'entwined' with these wires, shouldn't they have gone to the forensics lab already?

I agree with Dr Fairgrieve who testified that this was a thoroughly unprofessional recovery of evidence that destroyed much of the potential forensic value whatever bones might have been found at this site.

Anyone interested in justice for Teresa and her family would have allowed to County Coroner Kakatsch and her team of forensic experts do their jobs, instead of blocking them.

All MOO.
 
Reading on reddit and found an interesting graphic someone put together to help compare the contradictory testimonies and statements by witnesses:

http://imgur.com/a/EBUAs

The graphic was put together to highlight the hunting story, but I was interested in the statements about the alleged fires: ST can't seem to make up his mind whether he saw a fire in the pit or not, RF (who arrived to go rabbit hunting with EA) doesn't recall any fire in the fire pit but did see smoke in a burn barrel, while EA sees neither a fire in the fire pit nor any smoke from any burn barrels.

Has Steven figured out a way to make a fire large enough and hot enough to rival a crematorium invisible in the dark?

MOO
 
Reading on reddit and found an interesting graphic someone put together to help compare the contradictory testimonies and statements by witnesses:

http://imgur.com/a/EBUAs

The graphic was put together to highlight the hunting story, but I was interested in the statements about the alleged fires: ST can't seem to make up his mind whether he saw a fire in the pit or not, RF (who arrived to go rabbit hunting with EA) doesn't recall any fire in the fire pit but did see smoke in a burn barrel, while EA sees neither a fire in the fire pit nor any smoke from any burn barrels.

Has Steven figured out a way to make a fire large enough and hot enough to rival a crematorium invisible in the dark?

MOO
IMO, many of the statements given & reports typed are contradictory to one another.

This case..lol

No matter which direction you dig ( pun intended ) you'll come back with more questions than answers.

Absolutely nothing about this case is/was on the up & up.
JMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
IMO, many of the statements given & reports typed are contradictory to one another.

This case..lol

No matter which direction you dig ( pun intended ) you'll come back with more questions than answers.

Absolutely nothing about this case is/was on the up & up.
JMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Welcome back Dexter!!!! :welcomeback: You have been missed!!!
 
I've always gone back and forth on whether I believe there was a fire at all that night. The statements are so contradictory and it seems everyone changes their statements as time went on. I don't trust anything said after Wiegert/Fassbender talked to anyone!!! LOL

I still question whether that fire pit could have been hot enough, long enough to burn a body to that degree.
 
I've always gone back and forth on whether I believe there was a fire at all that night. The statements are so contradictory and it seems everyone changes their statements as time went on. I don't trust anything said after Wiegert/Fassbender talked to anyone!!! LOL

I still question whether that fire pit could have been hot enough, long enough to burn a body to that degree.
Same
Same
Same

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I will just leave this here for anyone that would like to read the testimony :)

Eisenberg testimony:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=10
Q. But you weren't able to conclude, 100 percent certain, that these were human pelvic bone fragments; do I understand that correctly?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you suspected them of being human pelvic bone; am I understanding you correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. You still suspect them of being human pelvic bone?
A. Suspected possible human.


http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=14
Q. -- bone. And let me ask you just maybe the simplest, most straight forward question here, is what made you suspect that these pieces of pelvic bone could be human?
A. The contours of the bone, and more particularly, the shape of what we call the articular surfaces, where one bone fits with another bone at the hip joint.
Q. Those appeared consistent with a human being?
A. With the shape and the contours of what would be expected in a human bone.


Strang asks Eisenberg more than once about the 'same burning, charring, calcining' here is just one question with her answer.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=30
Q. But the burnt bone fragments that you saw from the three sites, again, all were roughly similar in their burning, charring, and calcining?
A. That is correct.


Her full testimony starts here on Day 13: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Transcript-Day-13-2007Feb28.pdf#page=114

continued on Day 14
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=4


***Keep in mind that this is the same anthropologist that identified human fetal remains in a burn pit shortly after TH disappeared, when months later the remains with fetus intact was found. So I am slightly more sceptical about her testimony as a whole, regardless of what side of the fence someone sits on, this should be kept in mind.
 
I will just leave this here for anyone that would like to read the testimony :)

Eisenberg testimony:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=10
Q. But you weren't able to conclude, 100 percent certain, that these were human pelvic bone fragments; do I understand that correctly?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you suspected them of being human pelvic bone; am I understanding you correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. You still suspect them of being human pelvic bone?
A. Suspected possible human.


http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=14
Q. -- bone. And let me ask you just maybe the simplest, most straight forward question here, is what made you suspect that these pieces of pelvic bone could be human?
A. The contours of the bone, and more particularly, the shape of what we call the articular surfaces, where one bone fits with another bone at the hip joint.
Q. Those appeared consistent with a human being?
A. With the shape and the contours of what would be expected in a human bone.


Strang asks Eisenberg more than once about the 'same burning, charring, calcining' here is just one question with her answer.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=30
Q. But the burnt bone fragments that you saw from the three sites, again, all were roughly similar in their burning, charring, and calcining?
A. That is correct.


Her full testimony starts here on Day 13: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Transcript-Day-13-2007Feb28.pdf#page=114

continued on Day 14
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=4


***Keep in mind that this is the same anthropologist that identified human fetal remains in a burn pit shortly after TH disappeared, when months later the remains with fetus intact was found. So I am slightly more sceptical about her testimony as a whole, regardless of what side of the fence someone sits on, this should be kept in mind.
I think all who are interested in this case would find this testimony extremely interesting.
Thanks, Missy&#128522;

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
I notice how there are leaves intertwined with the steel belts from burned up tires as seen in this photo.

attachment.php


There's no way leaves could get tangled up in these wires unless the leaves and the tires were burned together, right? ;)

MOO
 

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Those leaves and those wires were racked up into a pile ... probably with the rake that we see in the pic IMO. This was NOT done by SA because we have access to photo's that were taken with the dog still there... talk about "altering" the crime scene. No doubt Ertl didn't want to take photo's.
 
Hi All!!!

Anyone have any idea why there were animal bones in the burn barrels? Could the contents of the burn barrel come from a farm? After all, there are many farms in the area? I'm not a farmer, but what happens with animals that die on a farm? How are dead animals disposed of? Where do the bones go?

Happy Holidays to those who are celebrating Easter.
 

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