Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[EspressoBean]

There were reports that DM smiled and acknowledged a woman in the gallery of the courtroom on more than one occasion early on. I wonder if that woman still comes to the court and if she is/was "Dee"?

I also wonder what fake facebook acct CN is using to access facebook information like Dee's letter. Or did she favour ABro's site for checking out what was going on when she was staying away from that "upsetting media" ?

MOO

It was in the media and I'm sure friends would be quick to show it to her.

 

[Errrr]

Why would he say to CN that it was MS's mess he was cleaning up if the letters were to be destroyed?

When you read his letters they become more manipulative, more specific about what he wants her to do and more detailed about what he will do for her. I think he is becoming more desperate as time goes on and there Is no progress on her part. His lawyer is keeping him in the loop regarding testimony and AM has never changed his story. I think he is trying to paint himself as less culpable to move her to action. He has no idea why the lovey stuff isn't working. Another tactic was to see if pretending to be a covert agent works on girls like it seems to work on his boys. Too bad she figured out that his fiction was the most she could ever have.
A lot of women love jailbirds because theoretical love is better than reality.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

If MB had been charged, I am sure the story would have changed.
I don't know the laws around evidence. I do know that an accessory charge needs to meet some conditions including knowledge of the crime and actions taken to help the person escape justice. If she had attempted to conceal the trailer, that would have changed things.

This makes sense. I am certain that the lawyer MB spoke to told her exactly what she could and couldn't do regarding the trailer. CN wiping MB's prints off the trailer wouldn't implicate MB I imagine?

 

[Errrr]

She's an odd bird. I get why she related the bit about the car ride sex act, I just don't get why she felt the need to say she banged him when she got home and when he got up a few hours later. Those details could have easily been left out and nobody would be the wiser, yet she willingly puts it out there. Almost like she's bragging about it.

I think she's trying to get all the ruddy duddys to stop asking questions.

 

[Webulls]

I find the existence of the letters far more interesting than the actual contents of the letters (although more on that in a minute because the contents were mind-blowing too!).

I am starting to believe that the letters were part of LE's strategy to nail DM. If you think about it, if LE really wanted to prevent the letters from getting out of prison, I'm sure they could have done that very easily. I suspect now that LE was deliberately allowing the letters to leak out, knowing full well that DM would incriminate himself in the letters, and that when the time was right (April 2014, several letters later), they could execute a search warrant on CN's residence to seize the letters as evidence. LE was always two steps ahead of this psycho. But he truly wasn't aware of the trap they were laying for him.

I'm sure from the beginning LE knew that without a body, they had an uphill battle. They must have formulated a strategy to in essence, have him confess to the crime. Which is exactly what the letters do. The letters are nothing short of a confession, and at the same time, they reveal to all of us that DM is a conniving and manipulative psychopath. In my opinion, this was brilliant police work. They knew from CN's first interview that she was not going to co-operate, and that she would protect DM. Their strategy must have changed from "tell us what you know" to "ok then, let's sit back and let the information come to us" via letters from DM.

We may have all been angry and disappointed in Day 1 of CN's testimony. And rightfully so. However, I believe that the Crown never intended for her to be a useful witness in the sense that she would testify about details regarding the murder of Tim Bosma (BTW, henceforth, I refuse to abbreviate his name...he should not be reduced to mere initials - leave that for the scumbags who murdered him and their associates). I'm pretty sure that CN's performance on day 1 was exactly what the Crown expected. Many people expected her to get on the stand and "spill the beans" or provide "devastating evidence" as I heard one writer report.

The Crown had a different plan, however, which became apparent yesterday. To the Crown, CN simply served as a vehicle through which the Crown could present the letters to court. Her role was basically to confirm that she received letters from DM from prison, that they were in fact authored by DM. That's it. Everything else that exited her pie hole was useless lies and cover-ups, discardable gibberish. Despicable for sure, but actually more pathetic than anything. Such a broken woman in so many respects. Her punishment is coming, be patient.

The contents of the letters are the "devastating evidence" we were promised. Not the useless testimony from CN. The contents of the letters reveal not an innocent man or even a bungled car theft gone wrong. The letters reveal a pre-meditated and planned murder. A desperate jailed DM professing his love, his desire to have children, to sail around the world, are evidence of a psychopathic manipulator who feels the clamps closing in on his trachea.

I also want to finish by going back to the text "if it's a flop we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...could be an all nighter". It seems to me this is commonly misinterpreted to mean "if Tim Bosma hands us the keys and walks away we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...we will kill him and it could be an all nighter". In fact, I think the real meaning of this text was "if we can kill Tim Bosma without dirtying the truck, we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...and we make a mess of the inside of the truck, it could be an all nighter".

Murdering Tim Bosma was always part of the plan, it was no accident or burglary gone awry. DM and MS had every intention of killing Tim Bosma. It was just a matter of whether or not the truck would get messy.

Both DM and MS guilty of 1st Degree. MOO.

 

[EspressoBean]

I find the existence of the letters far more interesting than the actual contents of the letters (although more on that in a minute because the contents were mind-blowing too!).

I am starting to believe that the letters were part of LE's strategy to nail DM. If you think about it, if LE really wanted to prevent the letters from getting out of prison, I'm sure they could have done that very easily. I suspect now that LE was deliberately allowing the letters to leak out, knowing full well that DM would incriminate himself in the letters, and that when the time was right (April 2014, several letters later), they could execute a search warrant on CN's residence to seize the letters as evidence. LE was always two steps ahead of this psycho. But he truly wasn't aware of the trap they were laying for him.

I'm sure from the beginning LE knew that without a body, they had an uphill battle. They must have formulated a strategy to in essence, have him confess to the crime. Which is exactly what the letters do. The letters are nothing short of a confession, and at the same time, they reveal to all of us that DM is a conniving and manipulative psychopath. In my opinion, this was brilliant police work. They knew from CN's first interview that she was not going to co-operate, and that she would protect DM. Their strategy must have changed from "tell us what you know" to "ok then, let's sit back and let the information come to us" via letters from DM.

We may have all been angry and disappointed in Day 1 of CN's testimony. And rightfully so. However, I believe that the Crown never intended for her to be a useful witness in the sense that she would testify about details regarding the murder of Tim Bosma (BTW, henceforth, I refuse to abbreviate his name...he should not be reduced to mere initials - leave that for the scumbags who murdered him and their associates). I'm pretty sure that CN's performance on day 1 was exactly what the Crown expected. Many people expected her to get on the stand and "spill the beans" or provide "devastating evidence" as I heard one writer report.

The Crown had a different plan, however, which became apparent yesterday. To the Crown, CN simply served as a vehicle through which the Crown could present the letters to court. Her role was basically to confirm that she received letters from DM from prison, that they were in fact authored by DM. That's it. Everything else that exited her pie hole was useless lies and cover-ups, discardable gibberish. Despicable for sure, but actually more pathetic than anything. Such a broken woman in so many respects. Her punishment is coming, be patient.

The contents of the letters are the "devastating evidence" we were promised. Not the useless testimony from CN. The contents of the letters reveal not an innocent man or even a bungled car theft gone wrong. The letters reveal a pre-meditated and planned murder. A desperate jailed DM professing his love, his desire to have children, to sail around the world, are evidence of a psychopathic manipulator who feels the clamps closing in on his trachea.

I also want to finish by going back to the text "if it's a flop we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...could be an all nighter". It seems to me this is commonly misinterpreted to mean "if Tim Bosma hands us the keys and walks away we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...we will kill him and it could be an all nighter". In fact, I think the real meaning of this text was "if we can kill Tim Bosma without dirtying the truck, we'll be done in 2 hours, if not...and we make a mess of the inside of the truck, it could be an all nighter".

Murdering Tim Bosma was always part of the plan, it was no accident or burglary gone awry. DM and MS had every intention of killing Tim Bosma. It was just a matter of whether or not the truck would get messy.

Both DM and MS guilty of 1st Degree. MOO.

Well said. I agree.
ADD: I'm not convinced they were aware of the letters unless they were making copies since they waited almost a year to arrest CN and this leaves less chances of this evidence being destroyed. But I still think it's a possibility since the longer they left her alone the more comfortable he would get in contacting her and the safer she would feel.

 

[Inspector_North]

IMO, everthing in these letters are DM "suggesting" not true facts. He's back peddling and trying to save his AZZ and keep CN loving and believing in him.

We also shouldn't forget, DM was getting information about the case. He wrote about MS'S *advertiser censored**'d up because he (DM) knew that's what MM and MS already said. He's used this to his advantage and adding "I just helped clean up his mess" to make it look more believable.
I still think the *advertiser censored**'d up was MS didn't restraint TB good enough and TB got out of the shabby tape job (MS asked for gloves and tape) Opening suggested a struggle inside the tuck before TB was shot. Then DM shot TB in the struggle while MS drove the Yukon behind them (MM tesimony to MS couldnt talk because was driving). IMO, that's why they pulled into the Bobcat parking lot.

MM testified to MS'S shoulder problem, DM wrote about his shoulder problem. Coincidence? I doubt it!

The toolbox, "Mark gave Dell a toolbox but Dell wasn't sure if Mark told him the combination" that this is what the cops already know. Ya, the LE knows because that's what DM told them. again, this is what he was hoping CN would testify to. Another suggestion by DM. He was also assuring he'd make sure that CN was safe on the stand, that her testimony would line up.

DM wanted everyone to lie and tamper with evidence, his words were being composed in hopes CN would help him. He was suggesting what she should do and say. He was talking in a way she'd understand it but being causious incase the letter writings were discovered in the transits. JMO

I was wondering why LE arrested AM, but makes sense...DM was trying to pin it on AM and MS. Hey CN, look for those pics on FB, they may help with the plan. That backfired when AM "S**T his pants" and told all. DM then had to back peddle to convince AM to change his words. Maybe he thought AM was stupid...oh right DM did say that AM was "slow"! And not know the reason behind his (AM) arrest. MOO

I think reading between the lines on all these letters is a good idea just because DM wrote those words, don't mean they are true statements.

All MOO and JMO

I don't disagree, just asking the question. We are getting close to the point in the trial that they will be judged on probability based on evidence. I am often seeing folks here taking one side and making speculations and mixing with facts to come to a conclusion.

We know they are guilty, but the evidence must confirm or prove beyond reasonable doubt premeditated murder to be convicted of first degree. I am hoping for just a little more evidence about the premeditated.

I don't see anything non factual about AM in the letters.

MOO

 

[Nosey Parker]

I don't disagree, just asking the question. We are getting close to the point in the trial that they will be judged on probability based on evidence. I am often seeing folks here taking one side and making speculations and mixing with facts to come to a conclusion.

We know they are guilty, but the evidence must confirm or prove beyond reasonable doubt premeditated murder to be convicted of first degree. I am hoping for just a little more evidence about the premeditated.

I don't see anything non factual about AM in the letters.

MOO

It's hard. So many players, so many lies. Many small things have led me to premeditation, but the main one is the fact that they took a gun on a test drive. Who used it, when and where - not proven. Does the jury need to know that, given that they were both there, and both involved in the concealing of evidence?

 

[Kamille]

I don't agree. It has nothing to do with her continued loyalty to him. She is loyal to herself. All of her statements and memory lapses are regarding her own knowledge and involvement in the crime. JMO

There have been some unusual statements. Like she apparently started off referring to DM as "Millard". Not sure if she is still doing that. She does claim to be over him. She has no problem remembering that they hung out at MWJ's a handful of times and other events that place him in certain situations that corroborate the evidence against him, but when it comes to the why of what SHE texted, said or did, there is complete memory loss and obfustication.

The sex talk is just making him out to be more of a pig and a womanizer than he already seemed and is likely not helping his case whatsoever. Although as some have indicated, it probably gives her satisfaction to say these things for the benefit of the other 2 ladies that we know he was juggling. Especially the ex, whom I doubt she had any clue was still in the picture, perhaps living in one of his properties (that he may have visited for "breakfast" on the morning of the same day he supposedly got "sexual favours" from CN while driving)and who was also driving a car perhaps registered to either him or MillardAir.

Don't think CN had received her car yet. Also not sure if she had her driver's license at that point. I guess that's why he was asking her about cars in the letters. That seems to be his favourite "go to gift" for people he manipulates.

Maybe we're reading it wrong and a lot of this is aimed at him. I guess we'll see when his attorney crosses her?

MOO

 

[EspressoBean]

I don't disagree, just asking the question. We are getting close to the point in the trial that they will be judged on probability based on evidence. I am often seeing folks here taking one side and making speculations and mixing with facts to come to a conclusion.

We know they are guilty, but the evidence must confirm or prove beyond reasonable doubt premeditated murder to be convicted of first degree. I am hoping for just a little more evidence about the premeditated.

I don't see anything non factual about AM in the letters.

MOO

Not entirely true. It does not need to be proven to be premeditated to be first degree if the murder happened during a confinement which is what DM was first arrested for. It can also be first degree murder if the person is attempting to commit an offence and caused the person murdered to fear for their safety.

From the criminal code:
Criminal harassment

(6) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under section 264 and the person committing that offence intended to cause the person murdered to fear for the safety of the person murdered or the safety of anyone known to the person murdered.

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

So, with the Crown witnesses winding down (CN possibly being the last), does anyone think we'll find out about the hoses and washroom at Riverside? There was some interesting speculation on yesterday's thread about them having been used to wash out the clean up can from the incinerator. However, even with that as a possibility, I'm still darn curious.

Could it be that legal arguments, following the testimony from JV, had any further testimony about that evidence quashed?

What think you?

 

[Inspector_North]

Maybe it's time to start compiling the evidence that points to premeditated murder. I keep forgetting some.

Here is a start

Pre and during the mission
DM buying a gun in Feb from MWJ
Mention of the generator during mission planning
DM texting he had gloves and tape for the mission
DM texting MS to bring a change of clothes
MS texting picture of Fireside furniture and sausage frying.
DM texting CN that if it is successful it will be an all nighter.
This mission was planned very differently from others, used burner phone. Others were just walkie talkies.

Post mission

Mood in the Yukon
DM telling AM he was successful.
text to CN about the mission digestion


MOO

 

[EspressoBean]

Maybe it's time to start compiling the evidence that points to premeditated murder. I keep forgetting some.

Here is a start

Pre and during the mission
DM buying a gun in Feb from MWJ
Mention of the generator during mission planning
DM texting he had gloves and tape for the mission
DM texting MS to bring a change of clothes
MS texting picture of Fireside furniture and sausage frying.
DM texting CN that if it is successful it will be an all nighter.
This mission was planned very differently from others, used burner phone. Others were just walkie talkies.

Post mission

Mood in the Yukon
DM telling AM he was successful.
text to CN about the mission digestion


MOO

I don't remember in the Crown's opening statement that they said their intent was even to prove that this was premeditated so I'm not sure that is the focus on the evidence. I think they need to prove, there was intent to steal a truck and there was a gun involved that shot and killed Tim. jmo

 

[EspressoBean]

So, with the Crown witnesses winding down (CN possibly being the last), does anyone think we'll find out about the hoses and washroom at Riverside? There was some interesting speculation on yesterday's thread about them having been used to wash out the clean up can from the incinerator. However, even with that as a possibility, I'm still darn curious.

Could it be that legal arguments, following the testimony from JV, had any further testimony about that evidence quashed?

What think you?

I don't know that we are going to hear more about the hoses and wash up at Riverside. CN is the last witness and I would think that would have been covered prior to these letters. There are a lot of letters left to go and the Crown is expected to finish with her early next week.
There may have been too much speculation and not enough evidence to further question JV about these things.

 

[andreww]

I don't want to gross anybody out or horrify them any more than they already are, but hear me out.

A lot of people here that have followed the evidence closely have come to the conclusion that this was a planned murder. Certainly the preparation chatter about the generator, the mission prep in Kitchener, and the fireside furniture/sausage roast texts certainly indicate that the Eliminator was planned to be used. Then we have the bloody mess inside the car and Millard's request to bring tape. This would indicate that TB was to be taken hostage and restrained, and as many believe, a struggle took place in the truck (or at least an attempt to escape) and he was shot, not according to plan. My question then becomes, what was the original plan? The obvious answer would be a drive to the farm, a bullet to the head, then incineration. I wonder if someone would want to fire a gun in the middle of the night, then sit around for hours while the Eliminator did its work. Then I the of the "Orange guy". Could it have been a sedative? Could the plan have been to burn TB alive? Normally I'd think that was reaching, but having seen Smich's video project, Millard's bleeding eye photo, and the way that all of them had a callous disregard for life, I wonder if this was there perverse original plan.

In some ways Im glad all that blood evidence was found. If all they'd found was that tooth in the incinerator, I don't think I'd ever sleep right again.

 

[Inspector_North]

I don't remember in the Crown's opening statement that they said their intent was even to prove that this was premeditated so I'm not sure that is the focus on the evidence. I think they need to prove, there was intent to steal a truck and there was a gun involved that shot and killed Tim. jmo

You are correct

"The Crown intends to prove that on this date in the late evening hours, Tim Bosma was killed in his truck, shot by the two accused at close range, while on a test drive with his truck; his body then incinerated hours later by the two accused."

The question for me is what do they need to prove first degree in this trial? And whatever it is, can we look at, and discuss the evidence supporting that intention?

I am not trying to take a side, but challenge evidence, and the speculation that may be a leap for fair justice. Nothing would please me more than proving first degree. whatever angle the crown may be using to prove it. As long as the judgement criteria meets the spirit of our laws.


MOO

 

[Kamille]

So, with the Crown witnesses winding down (CN possibly being the last), does anyone think we'll find out about the hoses and washroom at Riverside? There was some interesting speculation on yesterday's thread about them having been used to wash out the clean up can from the incinerator. However, even with that as a possibility, I'm still darn curious.

Could it be that legal arguments, following the testimony from JV, had any further testimony about that evidence quashed?

What think you?

Unless he mentioned going to Riverside and "washing up" in any of the letters, I'd say that is a dead end, just like the drive shed speculation. Too much speculation and not enough evidence or fact in the running hose theory.

MOO

 

[andreww]

So, with the Crown witnesses winding down (CN possibly being the last), does anyone think we'll find out about the hoses and washroom at Riverside? There was some interesting speculation on yesterday's thread about them having been used to wash out the clean up can from the incinerator. However, even with that as a possibility, I'm still darn curious.

Could it be that legal arguments, following the testimony from JV, had any further testimony about that evidence quashed?

What think you?

I guarantee we won't hear any more. But let be ask you this, do you think that hose was running to check the drain? Thats what I thought. The jury is probably thinking the same thing too.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I've mentioned this before but I think it bears repeating:

We've heard that both before and after Tim was killed, DM was quite busy engaging in all sorts of other business (hangar business, real estate dealings, meeting with businessmen, going to lunch with his mom, etc.) that had absolutely nothing to do with the crime itself. There are numerous things that came up that were never explained (hoses, all the crap in his Yukon, paint cans, etc.) that could have had zero to do with the crime at all. By themselves they seem odd - especially because they were never explained.

But as smaller pieces of a larger look into DM's days before and after Tim Bosma was killed, it paints a picture of someone with no remorse or second thoughts whatsoever to committing such a crime like it was just another item on his busy to-do list that day.

 

[Arnie M]

I don't want to gross anybody out or horrify them any more than they already are, but hear me out.

A lot of people here that have followed the evidence closely have come to the conclusion that this was a planned murder. Certainly the preparation chatter about the generator, the mission prep in Kitchener, and the fireside furniture/sausage roast texts certainly indicate that the Eliminator was planned to be used. Then we have the bloody mess inside the car and Millard's request to bring tape. This would indicate that TB was to be taken hostage and restrained, and as many believe, a struggle took place in the truck (or at least an attempt to escape) and he was shot, not according to plan. My question then becomes, what was the original plan? The obvious answer would be a drive to the farm, a bullet to the head, then incineration. I wonder if someone would want to fire a gun in the middle of the night, then sit around for hours while the Eliminator did its work. Then I the of the "Orange guy". Could it have been a sedative? Could the plan have been to burn TB alive? Normally I'd think that was reaching, but having seen Smich's video project, Millard's bleeding eye photo, and the way that all of them had a callous disregard for life, I wonder if this was there perverse original plan.

In some ways Im glad all that blood evidence was found. If all they'd found was that tooth in the incinerator, I don't think I'd ever sleep right again.

That is not so far fetched ..... I have often thought the original plan involved more than just shooting somebody while driving down the road.